CAN SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!

[jbarrow0811]

Okay here goes...I set up a 10 gallon aquarium about 3 weeks ago. There are no live plants and it is freshwater. We have been getting our fish and lots of advice from our local petsmart, which at this point I am second guessing. We started with 3 platys and 2 african dwarf frogs then we were told that in 3 days we could come and get 3 more so we did...3 mollies were added and a pleco (sucker fish) I would say that about 1 week passed and everyone was happy until I woke up and found everyone except the pleco at the top hovering by the filter. I did some searching and found the pleco stuck behind a plant in the corner dead. Well I took him out but I think he was in there a little too long and caused my water to have a high ammonia level. I went to petsmart and they tested it and it was at a 5 so the sold me some prime and said just to put it in there and everything should be good. I did exactly what the bottle said and within a couple of hours fish started dying so I called petsmart back and they said do a 50% water change so I did but in the meantime I took the dead fish and all other fish that looked ill back to the store for a refund and in hopes that they might save the others. I am now left with 1 molly that is doing fine. So a week passed since the tradegy and I had a testing kit and everything was great so I took another sample to petsmart the next day and they said that everything is still elevated!!! WHAT...I just checked the water the day before, how does that happen??? They said to go home do a 10% water change wait 3 days do another 10% water change and add the prime again. Well I did the 10% and am supposed to do it again tomorrow but my testing strips still say everything is fine. Also today I see small white bugs crawling around on the decor and on the glass, about 5 I guess, I looked online for what it could be but I can only find info on water fleas and these don't look like that.
I just don't know what to do anymore, the molly is still alive but still seems to spend all of his time near the top of the water. I really want to just dump everything and start all over again but without the pleco and this time around only have the molly and maybe one other fish for a month until it is completely cycled. Should I start over??? And what are those bugs?
Sorry this post is so long but I just don't know where else to turn. Thanks for any help you can give.

[bikeguy33]

first and foremost....stop listening to petsmart...they did well at getting you to buy more. kill your fish and sell you more stuff....they ARE good...lol. as far as the water bugs...i`d say they came in with a fish. but the bugs arent a problem right now. the problem seems to be a badly cycled tank and not enough air flow. what do you use for a filter? is there a air pump and stone? lets get this tank cycled before we add more fish....and MOST OF ALL....STOP LISTENING TO PETSMART. not screaming....just trying to show how important that line is...

[fishfever]

I agree with bikeguy, I can't tell you how many times I've overheard a salesperson at that store give bad advice to new fish owners (we have at least 4 of them within driving distance). In fact this is how I got into the hobby - my wife bought some fish and a small tank from them and then I had to figure out how to make them live!

It sounds like ammonia poisoning killed off your fish since you haven't had time to properly cycle your tank. Prime is a great product IMHO but you have to use the proper amount every other day (lasts 48 hours) to neutralize ammonia, nitrites and nitrates (also neutralizes chlorine and chloramine). Because I already had fish and no cycled tank, I used frequent water changes and Prime to get our first tank cycled. But it took quite a few weeks and was alot of work. I got smarter with our latest larger tank and used fishless cycling with pure diluted ammonia to seed it. Cycling a tank can take time if you don't have seasoned media from a cycled tank to get it started (preferrably free of pathogens). It took about 2 weeks for the ammonia to spike and drop (meaning the bacteria was converting into nitrite). Then it took nearly 4 weeks for the nitrite to do the same (meaning the nitrite was converting into nitrate). So about 6 weeks total more or less before I was ready to add fish but this can vary quite a bit.

Your molly may be already too far gone with gill damage although salt/Methylene Blue (if you can find it) baths may help it recover.

[stix0504]

I'm sorry that they gave you such bad advice and you are starting off with such a horrible time. I am not a fan of Petsmart either. I agree with he other two that your tank just isn't cycled yet. It took 6 weeks minimum for each of mine to cycle when I initially set them up too.

I have no idea what those bugs are though. I wouldn't buy any fish from Petsmart at all. I have had horrible experiences with them and fish in the past.

[jbarrow0811]

**bikeguy** I just use a regular waterfall type filter for a 10 gallon tank, I believe that it is top fin (petsmart brand) For the air bubbles I just have a hose attached to an arnamental shell that makes continuous bubbles.
**fishfever** The molly does not look sick or anything actually he still looks like he did when we bought him. Although his behavior is a little different.
I just really think that I should start over from scratch so that it can properly cycle without all of this other mess going on too. Besides there is a new petstore that just opened (privately owned) and everyone is already talking about how much this guy knows so I think I am going to use him from now own anyway. I guess I just don't want to take the chance of more things happening in the long run because of the stuff that is going on now. Is there any harm in just starting over? I just put a new filter cartridge in there so could I use that one for the new tank or put a different on in there so it is completly fresh? Also what should I do with the molly, take it back or put him in the new water?
Thanks for all of you help so far! NO MORE PETSMART FOR ME:)

[supi]

Welcome Jbarrow.

I recommend you continue on with this tank and continue learning with it. You are part way through. Every tank must go through this either with fish or fishless cycling. Approximately from the 20 to 24 day your ammonia levels should drop to zero. I do not know if molly fish are hardy new tank cycling fish for your area water. I would ask your new fish store guy about that and then make a decision on what to do. Live bearing fish in my area don't like our water for some reason.

I am just going to keep it simple. You can read detailed article. The new tank syndrome basically starts with rising ammonia until bacteria starts to develop to take care of it then ammonia levels drops down to 0. This bacteria then turns the ammonia into nitrites. Nitrites aren't good for fish either. Nitrites will rise until bacteria can convert it to nitrAtes. When ammonia and nitrites fall to zero then your tank is cycled. Now you will probably have to do quite a few water changes until your tank is cycled through. During this time, do not change your filter and keep your the new filter you added in there too. It is more surface area for the good guy bacteria.

One option you can do to make your tank cycle a little easier is get some seasoned gravel from a tank that is all ready cycled. Another option: You can add some aquatic plants to help uptake the ammonia and nitrites to ease up the new tank cycling. Couple of aquatic potted plants and couple of stem bunches should do it for a 10 gal tank. Potted plants should have good guys bacteria. You might end up with rapidly multiplying snails with adding plants.

These are my thoughts on it. The other great folks on here might have a solution that you are more comfortable with.

[supi]

Ooops.. You can read Carl's detailed article on cycling fish aquariums.

[fishfever]

You said the molly was hanging around the top which is usually a sign of stress and/or not being able to get enough oxygen. I've seen this before - in fact just recently with a blue Mickey Mouse platy we just got. We put her in an isolation tank with a medicated Wonder shell for about 1.5 weeks and gave her a couple of salt/MB baths and now she is doing very well in our main tank. Mollies are pretty hardy fish but if this one is already stressed it may not be the best one for cycling with fish.

I'm pretty sure you have the same 10g tank we got from petsmart. It comes with a small HOB (hang on back) filter. It's not a terrible filter and if you are careful not to overstock/overfeed it can do the job. But you can really improve the overall filtering by either adding a sponge prefilter to it and/or supplementing it with a sponge filter. I did both with ours (it's now a fry tank) and the water parameters are always good.

There's plenty of good info on this site that you can read up on while waiting for your tank to cycle - either from articles or other people's experiences. I wish I would have found it earlier and saved myself alot of headaches early on...

So in summary I'd say you need to focus on getting the tank cycled either with fish or without (without is less work IMHO and usually won't require alot of water changes). I'd consider upgrading the filtering depending on how much of a bio-load you plan on having. For example mollies are great community fish and very personable and friendly (ours lets us pet them for example) but they are also voracious eaters and create alot of waste. They also get quite big (the 2 adults we own have doubled in length and probably quadrupled in mass/weight) so I'd say one is plenty for a 10g tank! Keep max fish growth size in mind unless you plan to upgrade to a larger tank in the future. Spot test your tap water so you know what you are dealing with; for example my tap water is soft and acidic so I treat it by adding Wonder shells to my tank to get the missing minerals and adding buffer to raise the pH to a level I'm targeting (and more importantly adding buffering capacity to keep the pH stable). Good luck and keep us posted!

[babygeige]

I wouldn't give up on the tank yet. Just keep that one molly until your tank is done cycling. I highly recommend Carl's articles too. His explanations are very clear and helpful. Just keep doing water changes every day until the tank is cycled. If you can, get the test kits that are liquid drops. They are much more accurate than the strips.

When I first started keeping fish, I started with a 10 gallon also. I added too many fish at once like you did, thanks to advice from Petco. It took my tank a loooong time to completely cycle because I had too many fish. Just try to do water changes and you'll get it!

Don't give up! Fishkeeping is a great hobby!

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

Great Advice so far!!! I don't have much to add to it except that I use prime...it is an awesome product!!! BUT prime will give you false readings on your ammonia...sorta...the ammonia will be safe but it will still read that you have ammonia. In a 10g tank...is 5ml for ever 50g...so that is 1ml per 10g which is .1ml per gallon. Unless you have a diabetic person in your family that uses those small syringes then it is too hard to measure. It is 2 drops per gallon if you make it up by the gallon. Every day after the initial dosing it is 10 drops per day if you have fish......I hope that makes sense

I am not a big fan of Mollies. Mollies are not really fresh water fish...they are Brackish water (1/2 fresh, 1/2 salt).

Also be careful not to over stock the 10g...many people make that mistake due to the chain stores...that rule of thumb...1 fish per gallon is a LIE!!! Mollies can get to be like 2 to 3 inches I think...you can only keep 5 Mollies total. I like to over kill my filtering (just ask Carl...lol) so I run a 10/20 on my 10g tanks. I run a 75-125g canister on my 55g and i run 2-55/75g on my 75g only because I have not upgraded the system yet (free tank and it came with them). I'd go with smaller fish so you can have more...like an all male guppy tank...or a mixture of guppy and neon tetra. You do NOT need a Placo..a 10g is WAY to small for him. He will get over 12 inches long. I have seen one that was at least 10 inches and his head was about 6 inches across!!! no kidding! Lots of live plant will help keep algae away....or you can get 3 Otto (algae eaters)...I have not had success with them but most people do...just make sure the tank is cycled!!!

Anyone suggest any other fish for the 10g. I have Red Cherry Shrimp and Endler's Livebearer's (a cousin to guppy but smaller).

Good Luck!!!
Lori

[brenda]

I think you have been given all the right advice. I also agree your tank is just cycling I would just keep on with the water changes and testing..Once your ammonia and nitrites are 0 and you have some nitrate readings you will know your tank is cycled. I think we all started with the same bad advice...It just helps you learn more is a way to look at it. I am also a big believer in overfiltrating.

[kagome]

Another point that I think a lot of people are misled about when they are setting up a fish tank is the idea that they need to keep adding new carbon all the time. This is actually quite false and if anything taking out a seasoned filter cartridge and then adding a new one that is unseasoned will actually hurt your water parameters. How a fish filter actually works is that it sifts out chunks of stuff floating around in the water and most importantly good bacteria colonize the media in your filter and they basically eat the ammonia and nitrite and the waste they produce is nitrate. But these good bacteria need a place to live, usually some porous surface through which water flows so that they stay constantly oxygenated. It takes a while for a population of these bacteria to colonize the media in your filter. So when you take out the filter cartridge that they have been growing on and put in a new clean one you are actually taking out the thing that is actually filtering your water and replacing it with something that does little to nothing to clean your water. I actually run absolutely no carbon in any of my filters. I just have plastic and floss bio grids that catch large particles of debris and are really good for nitrifying bacteria to grow on. When they get a build up of gunk I simply rinse them in DECHLORINATED (capitalized for emphasis) water and put them back in the filter. I've actually had way better results once I stopped using carbon and just left the bio grids in. Now I know that some people swear by carbon and don't like my method. If you still want to use carbon then you should put in the new cartridge a few weeks before taking out the old one so that bacteria can colonize it and you won't lose your biofilter.

Here are some links to a few of Carl's excellent articles, the first link is probably the most important for you to read as it deals with initial set up and cycling

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

Here's one about filters
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Filtration.html

And here's one on freshwater basics
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Basic_Aquarium_Principles.html

Here's an article about Mollies
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/10/mollies-in-aquariums.html

And here's one about different kinds of filter media and what they do and do not remove from water
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/05/aquarium-filter-media.html

I don't think that starting over from scratch is not necessarily the best thing to do in your situation, but that is just my opinion. I hope this was helpful. Good luck.

[fishfever]

This thread looks like it has developed into something real helpful to anyone just starting out...

By the way there is a product out there that can detect the free ammonia (the component that kills fish) when using Prime other other ammonia neutralizer. It's made by Seachem and attaches to your tank with a suction cup for continuous ammonia monitoring by simply reading the color (I believe Carl's store has them if not mistaken). I have two and they are about 1/2 a year old; they are supposed to last at least a year. All of the other ammonia tests I've used only detect total ammonia so when using Prime they are pretty much useless. The only issue I've had with mine is that the response is much slower going back down after it's done it's job and detected free ammonia. But you can soak the detector in some vinegar for a minute and then rinse it off with fresh water to reset it faster.

When weighing out cycling with fish versus fishless cycling, I prefer fishless because it's less work (little or no water changes until ready to add fish, then you do a large water change to remove the nitrates); no stress on fish since there are none; even if you have to do an intermediate water change to reduce total ammonia vacuuming the substrate is not necessary since you are adding pure ammonia and there is no food or waste to vacuum up; you can also go on vacation while the tank is cycling (it might take a bit longer since you aren't dropping ammonia in the tank while you are away). But I think the key to either way is to have seasoned material from a cycled tank.

[jbarrow0811]

First of all I want to say thank you to all of you that helped me out!! I just wanted to give a quick update...I still have the one lonely molly in there and he seems to be fine, and I did not start the tank over but I have done water change after water change and stopped feeding too much which I believe was part of the problem too. Today I went and got my water tested and finally the ammonia is at 0. But the nitrItes are at 10+ nitrAtes are at 80 pH is at 7.5 Alkalinity is 100 and Hardness is 75. So now they tell me that I need to do a 50% water change and use a product called Nutrafin Cycle. I have not done it yet and I don't know if I should. Also I believe that the so called bugs that I spoke of are actually snails a friend of mine had the same thing not too long ago and thinks that is what they are.
So do you think I should use the "cycle" stuff or just do water changes??? Thanks

[fishfever]

It sounds like the cycling is working since you have nitrates. The water change (using a gravel vac to clean the gravel while siphoning) will reduce your dissolved organic compounds although since you have only 1 fish and are not overfeeding any more it might not be too bad. It will also drop your nitrates (80 is a bit high) and nitrites.

I am not familar with Nutrafin Cycle but make sure it will convert the nitrites that are left into a non-toxic form for your molly and that the bacteria will still be able to access it for conversion into nitrates. I know that Prime will do this very well (it will also neutralize your nitrates also); I'm not sure about other products. Whatever you use, make sure it's not just a plain water dechlorinator as that will not be sufficient. When both ammonia and nitrites are 0, then your tank is cycled. Since you are cycling with fish you will need to keep a close watch on water parameters and use Prime or equivalent until cycled.

[Carl]

NutraFin (Hagen ) Cycle is made from Heterotrophic Bacteria and can help consume wastes, but these bacteria are not the same as the Autotrophic bacteria that compose nitrifying bacteria and can actually slow the growth of the beneficial bacteria by consuming wastes that the Autotrophic Nitrifying bacteria need.

SeaChem Stability is a better product (although it is similar in bacteria), however being a synergistic blend of aerobic bacteria I find that it interferes and tends to promote true nitrifying bacteria better than pure Heterotrophic bacteria products such as "Cycle".

I would look over this article when you have a chance (as others noted earlier):
Aquarium Nitrogen Cycle; which has more information on the subject of such products.

Good luck , you seem to already be on the road to a cycled aquarium.

Carl