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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 17:14:56 GMT -5
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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 17:18:01 GMT -5
Also, if anyone knows why this happens. The Aquaclear filter boxes, the one with the sponge, carbon and biomax, always seems to pop up out of the top. Why does this happen?
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Post by demfish on Sept 23, 2008 18:00:51 GMT -5
My AC 70 did that till I cut the sponge in half. Then added more of the bio bags. So I have two bags of them in there, works great for me!
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Post by bikeguy33 on Sept 23, 2008 18:49:55 GMT -5
without knowing what the problem is I had 1 observation. all the fish appeared to be gasping. is the oxygenation enough in the tank.? do they spend any time gasping at the top?
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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 19:31:15 GMT -5
I'm assuming there is enough O2 Bill as my guess that the much larger adult fish would be up near the top all the time and I don't see them up there. I just moved this group to that tank 2 days ago from the 100. The main tank is the tank I've still got to treat for Columnaris and is the tank I had problems with other Haps in the past. Lost 2 Adult Male Taiwan Reefs, and 2 male 2 female Copadchromis Boreyli's, just recently, the female Nimbo. This columnaris only seems to attack Haps or the Haps in my tank seem to be the only ones that have issues with it.
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2008 20:25:57 GMT -5
RE; your AquaClear problem: you already got a good tip there, you likely are dealing with excess air. Weighting the media down with a rock may help as another alternative. Do you have an air stone near the pick up for the Aqua Clear? If so this can cause this problem. RE; your Columnaris: This is the more difficult problem, however from everything you have stated including past conversations and the fact that this seems to only be affecting the Haps also indicates to me an issue with stress induced injury and then disease. Although we cannot be positive that this is Columnaris, your videos are quite good and this looks like a fairly clasic case of this bacterial pathogen. Aeromonas can have very similar symptoms, however it is an anaerobic bacteria (Columnaris is aerobic) and this would be less like unless you had high nitrates, high amounts of bio load and low oxygen levels. This leads me to the next point, I see NO evidence from your videos of low oxygen levels based on the actions of your fish, so although increased circulation would almost always help, this is likely not a problem here. Part of your difficulty here is that although most aquatic bacterial pathogens are opportunistic in some form or another, Columnaris being gram negative and aerobic is not hambered by good aquarium conditions other than healthy strong fish, while on the other hand half the battle of treating Aeromonas is improving water quality and filtration. However this is not to say that improving water quality is not going to aid your columnaris battle, improved Redox, high electrolyte levels can help as well as UV Sterilization. Finally though, my main thoughts are these, try and seperate the bullied species from the bully species as I feel this is where it all begins. Also keep in mind (so that you do not beat yourself up all day and night) that Columnaris is one of the most difficult diseases that fish farms battle (there are many college papers documneting this and I link to a few in my Columnaris article) and one thing that is pointed out in these is that increasing salt levels to extremely high levels often has a high level of success (also these studies pointed to reducing stress as a major factor) I would try and re-read the article, but also when time allows try and follow the links to three of the university studies as well (they are not real easy reading, but are really good if you can sit down "digest them") Columnaris articleCarl |
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Post by bikeguy33 on Sept 23, 2008 20:56:54 GMT -5
our biggest fish farm grief is popeye. the problem with fish farms for food fish is that the only med you can legally use is salt. although it helps....it is not the cure all end all. we are cycling 1 000 000 gallons of water right now and hopefully with all the infected gone this problem will be as well....
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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 21:15:32 GMT -5
That was helpful Carl. The lesions on the body don't exactly mimic the pictures, but with what I learned at the Nuclear Biological Chemical warefare school is that one advantage many war compound pathogens have, is the ability to be diverse in appearance and throw off even trained medical professionals needing to make a diagnosis based on look only. Given the white area spots others have seem to have shown and then gone away gives me hope. I am thinking some or most all of the adults in there might have gained an immunity, if that's possible. It seems only the newer fish when I add them show afflictions. The Jardini when I first tried putting him over there got beaten up by the male Nimbo and when I took him out and put him back in the 100, those white scale areas eventually went away.
Another point I find supporting yours is that in the last few weeks, I hadn't added the shells or salts as I ran out. I figured I had build up a good base of hardness and since you more mentioned in the Saprolengia section about the salts, to me this seems to go hand in hand with Coumnaris too. Given the absense in the last three water changes of the regular hardness buffers I add, this might explain why I'm seeing fish begin to show signs again. Clearly the UV I do know is going to help reduce anything from getting started to begin with, but for now I want to beat this thing out.
I'm pretty positiive I know how this even got in there in the first place too. It was most likely a few months ago when I tried to suppliment protien to breed the Venustus and gave them a small amount of feeder fish in there. What is rather odd and I can't seem to explain is just how the 75 gallon tank, which has the Datiniod and eats only feeder fish, that fish never seem to catch anything in that tank, and I probably clean the tanks here at the apt more then the 75 at the house gets cleaned, yet noone gets sick there. Go figure.
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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 21:21:10 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, what exactly does Malachite Green treat or good for? I bought this medication last year when that Asian Arowana got sick, and it turned the water in the tank a funky psychidelic green looking color. Magicman later told me it was Malchite Green. I'm wondering, since the medicated shells have a mix of everything, does MG have any benefits for Columnaris treatments?
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2008 21:46:25 GMT -5
Just out of curiosity, what exactly does Malachite Green treat or good for? I bought this medication last year when that Asian Arowana got sick, and it turned the water in the tank a funky psychidelic green looking color. Magicman later told me it was Malchite Green. I'm wondering, since the medicated shells have a mix of everything, does MG have any benefits for Columnaris treatments? is primarily anti-parasitical and anti-fungal. There is little to no anti-bacterial properties to Malachite Green. Medicated Wonder shells (not to be confuesed with regular Wonder Shells) also have some Methlylene Blue Acriflavin which have some anti-bacterial capabilites, but not real strong. Medicated WS are primarily for Ich, Velvet, fungus/saprolegnia, not bacterial problems. Usually "funky psychidelic green looking colors" are from Acriflavin, not Malachite Green Carl |
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Post by jonv on Sept 23, 2008 21:50:15 GMT -5
Ahhh ok good then Carl. Looking at your Kanaplex option. One bottle treats 600 Liters. I just did a converstion and found 180 gallons is about 681 Liters. So let's say I want close to a double strength treatment, I use two containers of the Kanaplex for the whole tank. How long would that be good for? I'm thinking a 3-5 day treatment with this in conjunction with Triple Sulfa. What you think? Need to figure just how much I'll need to order. My initial guess here is getting 6 bottles of Kanaplex at least, that gives three double strength treatments of that, but I don't see where you had triple Sulfa. Your reccomended treatment regimine here would be good. Am I on the right track or too strong or too light?
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Post by Carl on Sept 23, 2008 23:26:22 GMT -5
Ahhh ok good then Carl. Looking at your Kanaplex option. One bottle treats 600 Liters. I just did a converstion and found 180 gallons is about 681 Liters. So let's say I want close to a double strength treatment, I use two containers of the Kanaplex for the whole tank. How long would that be good for? I'm thinking a 3-5 day treatment with this in conjunction with Triple Sulfa. What you think? Need to figure just how much I'll need to order. My initial guess here is getting 6 bottles of Kanaplex at least, that gives three double strength treatments of that, but I don't see where you had triple Sulfa. Your reccomended treatment regimine here would be good. Am I on the right track or too strong or too light? What is most important Jon, is to follow through with at least three treatments, not doubling the dose, especially is used with another treatment. I am also a little apprehensive about combining a multiple sulfa treatment with Kanamycin, I would rather combine another antibiotic such as Nitrofuarazone (Furan II). I however do double antibiotics when used in a bath (along with MB and salt). Carl |
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Post by jonv on Sept 24, 2008 0:06:14 GMT -5
Ok,
So don't dose higher then normal. 1 bottle covers 600 L and my liter equivilent is 683, so I need more then one bottle to dose the whole tank. Like a Bottle and a quarter or so. I'm trying to figure the number of bottles I need to dose for three days. So if I dose appropriate for 180 gallons, how long does that last for? How long before I add the next round. You made it clear to me why to do that, and I agree, but I need to know how much to order to treat along your suggestion.
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2008 9:39:53 GMT -5
I would treat 3-4 times (usually three).
I recommend a treatment every other day, with a partial water change immediately preceding each treatment.
Remove carbon, resins, or other chemical filter media during this time (although you might consider running carbon for about an hour preceding each treatment).
Low organic loads will allow for a more effective medication as DOC will absorb medications.
If you choose to use another medication such as Furan II, I would treat with this on the opposite days from the Kanamycin (although I have treated both at the same time with good results).
Carl
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Post by jonv on Sept 24, 2008 9:50:42 GMT -5
Allrighty that sounds like a plan. That's why I was asking Carl. I wouldn't have guessed that if you dose the tank with a bottle of Kanaplex that would be for one day then wait one day and dose again. I'd have thought the dose would linger for like three or four days like that. Good point too on the bioload. I guess I'd say it's a medium bio load? Hard to say for me. There are a few big fish in there most are medium sized fish, but if you were to say compare my fish sizes to someone that keeps like danio's or tetra's then my fish are probably pretty large in that respect LOL.
My carbon should basically be inert by now. I haven't added new carbon in many months since I'd seen some debates on if you really need that or not. I'd decided to see if not using carbon really has any negative effects or not, and I can't say, other then the pics I've linked you too, that I've seen any unusual deaths or afflictions. Ever since back in May when I got rid of that Red Tailed Asian and the pleco's, the deaths in the tank actually have been fairly low. Turns out too that Peacock that I thought was getting the cloudy eye, really wasn't. Because the blotch pattern on the body is partly white, it was just shifting color around that area.
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Post by jonv on Sept 24, 2008 9:56:31 GMT -5
There is one other thing and I'm not sure if this could be related to Columnaris being in the tank or not. The last few spawn attempts by any female in there have failed. I found the Taiwan Reef female to be void of eggs. The Nimbo female before her, had spawned and had eggs in the mouth two times, and one time, she spit the batch while she was still in the net, the second time, she spawned and either swallowed or spit the eggs out three days later. The Taiwan Reef female spit or just swallowed hers after about 4-5 days. Not sure if that means anything or not. I don't have the harem types set up, and I'll say it's possible the male is being overbearing on the female, but this hasn't happend in the past either. Until I can obtain additional females, should this be the cause, I may just have to isolate a female found holding within a day or so. In the past, I'd wait a week to 10 days to take them out.
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2008 10:03:30 GMT -5
Good point too on the bioload. I guess I'd say it's a medium bio load? Hard to say for me. There are a few big fish in there most are medium sized fish, but if you were to say compare my fish sizes to someone that keeps like danio's or tetra's then my fish are probably pretty large in that respect LOL. Even with your higher bio load, your DOC can lowered (even if temporary) via the water changes prior to each treatment thus helping effectiveness. As to carbon, I have found its use often over rated, however carbon can improve water quality when used after medication so as to remove bio chemical residue from treatment as well as other impurities. My personal and professional use of carbon is basically I do not use it at all times only during "clean up period" or after treatments. I would recommend reading the section about carbon in my Aquarium Answers article about filter media as there is a lot of misinformation about what carbon can and cannot do: Aquarium Answers; Filter MediaCarl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 24, 2008 10:26:21 GMT -5
I looked at the vdieo and it seemed like your fish were gasping heavily. You may need to check your oxygen and water parameters. I aslo saw part of your fish's tail fins missing which could be from harassment by other fish, fin rot, or a side effect of Columnaris if it is infecting your tank.
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2008 10:30:24 GMT -5
I looked at the vdieo and it seemed like your fish were gasping heavily. You may need to check your oxygen and water parameters. I aslo saw part of your fish's tail fins missing which could be from harassment by other fish, fin rot, or a side effect of Columnaris if it is infecting your tank. Renee, generally lack of oxygen results in fish gasping at the surface; in these videos the gasping is more a sign of stress.  Other than that good points!  Carl |
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Post by Carl on Sept 24, 2008 13:30:36 GMT -5
A thought about this problem came into my head;
I just want to make sure that am not "over selling" you as a UV Sterilizer, as even though they can a do help control disease and improve water parameters, A UV Sterilizer CANNOT control problems caused by stress (of what ever the cause) nor any pre-condition such as an internal disease/parasite.
I Believe I am probably being repetitious, however I want to make sure that other readers of this thread understand what a UV can and cannot do.
Carl
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