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Post by jonv on May 31, 2009 12:34:14 GMT -5
I realized I probably should have started this up in this area sooner now that I see everyone else's here. I'll work on migrating posts that apply to this topic from the others I have posted later.
5-31-09
I did a water change in the 180 last night and restructured up the rocks pretty well and should be able to get shots tonight when the lighting glare isn't an issue. It's not in direct sunlight but angled light which obscures good shots. I will begin gravel trimming when I am able to get the Holey Rock from Vinman and then I should have the 180 set up how I need it.
Most of last week after posting up the ID Victorian thread, I noticed I began to lose some fish in the 100 gallon grow out tank. A significant number of the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus offspring ended up dead, as did a handful of the younger Protomelas Steveni Albino's.
I got in contact with Carl just before he headed out and best I can figure, something got in the tank from the new rocks I added in. I collected the rocks from the outside, but I did leave them soaking in water for 7 days before adding. 4 days just hot water, 3 days changed the water and added carbon with it, figuring this would remove any chemicals like yard products and stuff like that likely to be on the rocks. I figured the chlorine in the water would kill any possible pathogens and after speaking with Carl, I am now aware this may not be the case.
I currently have the 100 gallon tank with medicated shells in there, did another 50% water change as well. I opted to give the tank a dose of meth blue as well. I know this may be a bit overkill, but I really don't want to lose much more of the younger fish. One thing I passed on to Carl, the fish effected or dying were all the smaller ones. The larger older ones seem to be just fine. As well, a group of the ones that ended up dying were all up at the top, which would appear to be a nitrogen compound issue, and that's where I started. Showed no readings in ammonia nor nitrite and O2 really shouldn't be an issue as that tank is filtered with an AC 110 HOB filter plus an air stone. I don't have a dissolved O2 tester so I cannot say this with all certainty.
The tank appears to be stable now either way. Lost just one smaller Protomelas Steveni Albino and that's been it the last three days. Whatever the problem is, if it's what Carl deduces as possible Sapprolagia, or something else, it very much looks like the treatments are working well.
Between all that after the post and nephew, sister and another family member birthday this week I have not been able to get much more posted on here. Dr. appointment tomorrow at 11:00 to see if I can drop off some of these meds. It looks like this week will open up more time to support the forum with more information.
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Post by murdock6701 on May 31, 2009 14:14:37 GMT -5
Jon, what kinds of rock did you use? did it cause any cloudiness in the tank? sedimentary can carry crap for 100 years or more...sorry if this is not your problem and of the loss of your fish  |
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Post by bikeguy33 on May 31, 2009 18:18:28 GMT -5
a 10 or 15 minute boil in water will kill anything in rocks. leaving them soak in water is usually bad because stagnant water is a breeding ground for nasty bacteria. i hope this will help and am sorry bout the loss Jon...
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Post by murdock6701 on May 31, 2009 18:39:50 GMT -5
good point Bill, I should have mentioned boiling as well, but good rock choice is also important - many contain silicates or mica which in large quantities can be harmful IMO
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Post by jonv on May 31, 2009 20:07:11 GMT -5
I just grabbed rocks out of the yard John. I mean I figure hey it's free! ha ha. Well I started it out in very hot water, but you know the temp won't hold. I don't think it would hit the 10-15 minutes Bill is saying but I put it in as hot as I could get it out of tap.
The only cloudy up was dirt cloud. I probably should have brushed them just in case, but I didn't. I bit of brown came out, but that was about it. Now here's the funny part that I can't quite understand. I took rocks, since I got a BIG pile of them, and used some in the 180, some in the 100 and some in the 75, but the 100 is the only tank that got issues. Everyone in the other tanks were just fine. So this again is what Carl picked up on, the size thing.
The 100 did get a little bit cloudy, but that was a few days later, not right away. I also did the weekly change those few days before, not sure if that impacted it or not.
I think you both gave some great input that I didn't know about so next time I collect up rocks, I'll be "better armed" so to say lol. Carl suggested use of bleach which I also didn't know would impact any pathogens. When I grab the next set, I will feel much more confident things should work out fine. Thank you for the suggestions I think they will come in very handy.
Pics not done yet, but soon.
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Post by eve on May 31, 2009 20:20:46 GMT -5
you should also do a vinegar test on any rocks you collect
if it bubbles up, they're no good for the use of aquariums
if it doesn't bubble up, your'e good to go on cooking them
use white vinegar for that
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Post by jonv on May 31, 2009 21:08:05 GMT -5
What does that do and what is it testing Eve? That is the first time I've heard of that. That's a good heads up, but what does this mean? Bubbles indicate that something is on the rocks I am guessing right? I don't think I have any on hand, Vinegar that is, but not difficult to achieve. Video clip is uploading now, stills all done so should have latest updates soon. Will put those in the picture section. I really didn't want to post these yet because it's still in progress, but might help give an idea of how to make use of formations as well as overhead cover I suppose. It's going to look quite a bit different once I get the Holey rock and trim the gravel level down.
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Post by eve on May 31, 2009 21:27:32 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Jun 1, 2009 10:04:57 GMT -5
This test is primarily for the use of sedimentary rocks.
Generally igneous rocks (such as most volcanic rocks) and metamorphic rocks are safe (such as granite).
I do have to disagree with the list on the first link, although limestone is sedimentary rock and generally a rock that is not best for many freshwater applications, it can be used for many fish (such as Rift Lake cichlids). What is mossed in this article is that Marble is a metamorphic rock which is what limestone becomes after 1000s of years, & much pressure, but being metamorphic, does not dissolve nearly as readily, unless much acids are used (but then this can happen over time with most all rocks given time and acids)
As well I have used Utah Rainbow Rock (basically sandstone) safely in most community FW applications
Carl
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Post by jonv on Jun 5, 2009 12:31:39 GMT -5
6/5/09
Nothing much to really add here. Whatever the pathogen is, it seems to have slowed down, though a few more deaths occured this week. Not nearly as many but a couple here and there which could well be other issues. Losing 1 or 2 here and there I figure that's going to happen sometimes. When they start dying off maybe 10 or 15 at a time, that is a burning fire to me. Probably everyone else too I'd imagine.
Put 2 large medicated wonder shells in, pretty sure this should do the trick. Scanning over the rest of the occupants in the 100 gallon, found a deformed Kenyi, looks like the whole mouth is like missing or something. Hate to say it, always hate to say, gonna have to cull this one. Also which I realize, I did not mention previously. I picked up a Dragon's Blood Peacock male/female pair. When I got them from Vin 6 weeks ago, the female was holding and spit the eggs out in the bag. I put them in my DIY tumbler box and hatched 22 of them from egg stage!. They are in the 15 gallon still, and found this week, the female is holding again. Also discovered the smallest female I have ever seen, carrying a brood. Of the 4 Astatotilapia Aeneocolors I got way back a few months ago, 3 of the 4 are male. 2 are no doubters, with beautiful colors on them, the third is iffy, not sure if it's a dominance issue, looks like has some color, but not much. I'm assuming that's a male. The female though, no color and the mouth looked so big I took a peek in, sure enough, she's holding eggs. She can't even be half an inch at best. I have never seen a female that small spawn.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jun 6, 2009 20:32:19 GMT -5
ow....half inch....where does she max out in in size?  |
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Post by jonv on Jun 8, 2009 22:21:00 GMT -5
Bill I believe that female Astatotilapia's don't reach a big size overall. I would think any female over 2 inches would be a very big female for that species, Astatotilapia Aeneocolor. She didn't keep the brood though. Found today mouth clear, but it's still encouraging to see that she can at least spawn. First time broods often fail as well so it's nothing to feel down about.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jun 8, 2009 22:31:17 GMT -5
of course not... that is great spawning that young. proves when she learns she`ll probably be a great mom. your doing something right there my friend
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Post by brenda on Jun 8, 2009 22:33:06 GMT -5
Vics tend to spawn at surprisingly small sizes. Hopefully, she will hold for you next time Jon.
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Post by kagome on Jun 8, 2009 22:41:34 GMT -5
I was looking up the proper name of those guys and found this link that had some nice pictures including some holding females. www.african-cichlid.com/Aeneocolor.htmIf some fish can spawn so early at what point do you consider them to go from being a sub-adult to a full fledged adult? When they get up to size? Or is the spawning itself the line of demarcation? |
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Post by jonv on Jun 9, 2009 10:41:21 GMT -5
Bill thank you. The Peacock pair of which I hatched the eggs in a breeder box, that female spawned again in the same tank, which the Yellow Belly and Peacock pair are in this 100 gallon tank. That is the same tank I had health issues with many of the juveniles that are growing out and those deaths occured in. I think that is worth noting here and makes this issue of the pathogen more perplexing to me. That if there is a biological issue in there, yet 2 different species spawned, or if it was just a chemical on the new rocks that Carbon didn't absorb out, again, 2 different species females still spawned. Just on that aspect, I wouldn't have thought it would occur.
Brenda yeah I'm sure she will but I do remember something John (8 in the Corner) one time mentioned is that females at that age/size range spawning, often fail to reach larger adult sizes, in that early spawnings have almost a small stunting influence, as being fully mature to spawn, a great deal of energy gets devoted to egg production instead of growth. I think only time will reveal if this is accurate or not. The two dominant males in there, are so very beautiful looking too. Surprisingly both of them are fairly colored up and don't seem to fight. I expect aggression between the two to pick up as they continue to age though. There is a third one in there I am not sure of. It did show some color before, now is not showing. This might be a sub dominant or another female. I am leaning towards sub dominant, as I don't see the two males trying to court it.
Kagome, thank you on that link. That is actually an interesting article I think. I don't agree with some of the points the author made, mostly in that they find them to be relatively inactive and easy to photo. I am wondering if this is in a community setting or species only tank as the ones I have are a bit difficult to narrow down for a really good shot. But the two males I know I do have in there, are very nice looking in color, and the bigger dominant one is starting to get that stripe look in the eye area much like the photo in that link.
You also bring up a very good question in which I do not have an answer for to be honest. I hope though that Barbara or Brenda might have some input on this. I'm going to ask around and see what I can find. The group that I have now, are fish that were spawned by Vinny. I have their father over in the 75 gallon tank. The overall age of the four offspring I believe are about 6 months of age. I'll have to confirm that from Vinny as to just when they spawned. This will help with the first part of your question. We have to at least know about what age this group is for now. The coloring on the two males though I can say isn't just recent. I started to see coloring in the males show up about 4-5 weeks ago. I do think that at least for this species and many Africans as a whole, it is much easier to gauge maturity progress in males then females since you would look for color changes and most females in Africans have little to no color. I know that does not directly answer your question, but it would give a basic guideline for anyone reading this and new to keeping African cichlids an idea of what to look for in younger fish. I'll see what I can find out.
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Post by Carl on Jun 9, 2009 14:32:01 GMT -5
6/5/09 Put 2 large medicated wonder shells in, pretty sure this should do the trick. Keep in mind Jon that although the Medicated Wonder Shell is a good product, its strength is in prevention or follow up (although it is a first rate treatmnet for Velvet or mild/mod ich infestations), so if problems persist a stronger treatment regimine may be necessary. As well a UV Sterilizer may help in long term prevention as well. Carl |
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Post by jonv on Jun 9, 2009 15:19:28 GMT -5
Only 2 deaths last week in there Carl so I think it looks fine now. I think the Medicated Shells have kept whatever that was hitting the fish from at least spreading plus I tacked on double weekly water changes to keep up the refresh rate, looks like it's working out well now. I also think it's likely an over bioload helped whatever it was. Too many fish for that tank, but not really any other choice as adding the fish to the adult tank would have resulted in them being food.
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