What you are never supposed to do...

[barbara]

Well, I did. I bought sick fish, on purpose.

Before I get yelled at, I still think this is a good idea.

I believe these are some type of Paratilapia, but without good coloration, it's going to be hard to tell exactly what type.

What I think, and I am backed up by a different store owner, is...there was a big Oscar, a big Clown Knife, and 50 or so of these fish at 4 inches in a 55 gallon tank. I believe some injuries that aren't healing due to poor water conditions and overcrowding are being treated incorrectly. Way overcrowded conditions and lack of clean water is what I suspect, although I could be wrong.

Because these are Malagasy cichlids, I am treating them a little differently. I started with a bath in MB, followed by release into a much cleaner tank than than they are used to. I am treating that tank with salt, warmth, clean water and Melafix.

Now that I have them home, I'm being able to see the extent of the damage to these fish. They are covered in scratches and what would look like bruising on a person. The white spots may be a fungus that they have over their injuries, but with them hiding it's hard to say.

I'm leaving in the morning, and probably should not have bought these fish at this time, but I couldn't stand to leave the batch in such horrid conditions. I bought 6, at a reduced price, and I feel I got a bargain, even being in poor health. According to the workers there, they have not lost one since they arrived 4 weeks ago, and have healthy appetites (I trust one person there to tell me the truth, and that's who I spoke with). 6 is all I could afford, and house adequately right now, but I wish I could have taken them all. They weren't for sale because they are sick, but the people there know me, and let me purchase some to treat.

So, any other advice? Go ahead and yell, I still think I did the right thing, even if I lose them all I think it was the right thing. If I decide not to keep them, I can at least get them healthy and give them away. I just couldn't stand to see these at risk fish in such poor shape. I can do my best for these 6 anyway.

[jonv]

I don't see what would be that big of a deal if you left them in an isolation tank to treat them myself. If you can turn them around, it would be a really great thing to hear about. I just hope that it's not the common practice or habits of the store you got them at that did it. Would be nice to see some pictures of them when you get back. I'm looking at moving out my Polleni to make space anyways Barb so if you want them I have what I think are 2 male female pairs or if you have someone in the program, it'd be great to have a listed species like this go to the right place. I really like them, but I don't feel they are going to fit well into the scheme of the new changes I'm doing.

[barbara]

Actually, they ordered 20 of the fish, thinking they could move them quickly, as they hadn't been on an order list in years. They received 50, and had no place to put that many. This disease...or whatever, broke out soon after that, so they won't sell any. I knew the condition of the fish, and wouldn't expect them to live up to any guarantee, so they allowed me to purchase them at 50% off.

As for the Polleni, let me ask around. I might know some people that would be interested. If I hadn't just bought these guys, I would be...but I don't know where I'd put any more at this point.

[jonv]

Well then hey, Barbara on the spot there getting them! I really don't think it would be that big of a deal to get sick fish, as one would have to figure, they probably won't make it at a store. I really can't think of a different point of view, but if there is, would be good to see a different way of looking at it.

I like the Polleni myself Barb, just isn't going to work out well having a substrater in with the Mbuna and Vics. I've had them almost a year now, and short of venting them which I haven't done, I am thinking I do have 2 pairs, but just don't hold me to that as I'm not 100% sure. If I just had a spouse a little more supportive, I'd get them and the Oligocanthus their own tank really. I'll have a good deal of the Pytcho's ready to distribute in CARES probably another 30-45 days. I can already see some young males growing, but this species does grow very slow by comparison to Mbuna.

I think your new picks ups will at least be in a better case being with you then at the store.

[barbara]

I sure hope they are in better shape. I know I'll do my best by them. They are in a 55 gallon isolation tank right now, and I moved fish out to move them in. I really think this is a case of too many fish in too small of a tank, and fairly aggressive fish at that. If it is something serious then I may not be able to help them, but I don't think it is. They are covered in scratches, which I couldn't see with their jet black coloration in the store, but I can see it with the lighter brown, their stress coloration. I honestly think that just being out of that overcrowded tank and in one with more room will be good for them. To me, and I guess to my husband, it was worth the risk, as he told me to get them.

[eve]

i actually think it's a great thing you did
i did that once too with female bettas
i bought also 6 of them, they where in such horried health, and wouldn't have made it another couple days in that store
i nursed 4 of them back to health, and 3 of them lived happy 2 years with me, and 1 i still have, she is now 3 years with me already

i think if you have the knowledge, space and compassion to do it, i don't see anything wrong with it

so i congratulate you on it

keep us up to date on how they're doing

[brenda]

I don't see anything wrong with it either...You have a place to put them by themselves and they are a good find at a great price.

[barbara]

Thanks. I always hear "Don't buy sick fish, you'll just end up losing them." In this case, I thought I could see what the problem was, and with minimal extra care, they should recover. They are still freaked out from the move, so I can't get pictures yet, but I'll try when I get back from CA.

At least I had space for them, and didn't have to move them in with anything else. They are all alone in a tank the size of what so many were packed in, so I think they are having a hard time adjusting.

[kagome]

I don't think it was a bad thing to buy these fish at all, it's the complete opposite, it's a great thing. You know what you are doing and you will give them the proper care. Plus, you have them in isolation. It's not like you knew they were sick and them dumped them into one of your main display tanks and then two days later said, "Why are all my fish sick with this now?" If you were inexperienced or a lazy fish keeper then yeah, I would yell at you, but you're not. You take awesome care of your fish and you're just trying to fix these poor guys up. I have bought many, many bettas over the years that were in such bad shape that they looked like they were on death's door. I used to fix them up and keep them or give them away just because I couldn't stand how bad they looked in the store. I've also done the same with stray dogs and cats and also people bring me plants that they have half killed so I can nurse those back to health as well. I think it's awesome that you care enough to buy them and rehabilitate them. Good job!

[barbara]

Well thanks. I appreciate that thought, and honestly, the deal was too good to pass up. I didn't think Walt would go for it, but he surprised me and told me to jump.

The thing is...the Madagascar cichlids I have seen tend to be more "Wet Pets" than fish. They seem to interact with their keeper, and I am really enjoying that aspect of the ones I have. I didn't need more fish (isn't that a sure thing!) but I really like the personalities of these fish. Once I get them unstressed and well, I can try to get an ID on them, and see where we go from there.

[bikeguy33]

i purchased my new vieja on her side on the bottom of the tank....had to look close to see if she was just breathing. anyways...she was in a not for sale tank and the manager let me buy her at near nothing. she is doing 90% better...eating....fungas gone....hith gone...fins grown back. the right keeper can bring a fish back. i have confidence these guys will be fine...

[barbara]

May 3, 2009 0:43:30 GMT -5 bikeguy33 said:

i purchased my new vieja on her side on the bottom of the tank....had to look close to see if she was just breathing. anyways...she was in a not for sale tank and the manager let me buy her at near nothing. she is doing 90% better...eating....fungas gone....hith gone...fins grown back. the right keeper can bring a fish back. i have confidence these guys will be fine...

Wow, I don't know if I would have gone that far, with my limited experience in disease treatment, but it is awesome that you were able to help that fish. If I really felt that these fish had more complicated problems than just poor water quality, I don't know if I would have bought them. Not that I wouldn't have wanted to help, but I just am not that experienced with treating illnesses. I've had more disease in the last month than I've ever had combined in my tanks, and it's been really frustrating and scary.

I fed them frozen bloodworms last night before lights out. None really ate, but there are no bloodworms left this morning. I turned on the lights, and they were all over the tank. I gave them some flake, and while they all went and hid, one did stay towards the outside of the caves, and ate some flake. I think they will be fine with some simple care and patience. They are approximately 4 inches, and while I'd like to have them in a larger tank than a 55, I think this tank is best for them while they are undergoing treatment. I'll move them once they show no marks.

Can fish show bruising? I swear they have some dark patches on them when they are light colored that look like bruises.

All and all I'm pleased with them, and I actually think that being gone for a couple of days will be good for them. The house will be quiet, the tank will be dark, and they will have a chance to relax. That tank had a 50% water change night before last, and I'll do one when I get home.

[goldenpuon]

That was a great thing you did Barbara. I have never bought asick fish on purpose as I do not have the time to cure them but I have bought weak fish on purpose. Feeder goldfish actually to save them from being eatne and get them out of the horrid conditions they were in. They were not sick when I got them and I have had them around 3 years. They are very enjoyable and I am thankful I saved them from an almost certian death.

What you did is very similar and perhaps even more generous. Bravo on saving these fish. I'm sure they will recover and do great in your care. This shows just how much you care for fish. What you did was a very good deed!

[jonv]

May 2, 2009 23:42:25 GMT -5 barbara said:

Well thanks. I appreciate that thought, and honestly, the deal was too good to pass up. I didn't think Walt would go for it, but he surprised me and told me to jump.

The thing is...the Madagascar cichlids I have seen tend to be more "Wet Pets" than fish. They seem to interact with their keeper, and I am really enjoying that aspect of the ones I have. I didn't need more fish (isn't that a sure thing!) but I really like the personalities of these fish. Once I get them unstressed and well, I can try to get an ID on them, and see where we go from there.

Barb,

What I've noticed is that almost every Madagascar species, I think there are 22, look very plain and ordinary by comparison to other Africans, almost to the point where I could see a non trained eye looking at a Madagascar, and mistaking it for a South American. Also in that how they are egg layers, as far as I know of, they again take on many aspects similar to South Americans. I've got to make it a point to ask Dr. Loiselle, if there is some sort of link to the Madagascar species and the South Americans, like maybe at one point in time, they shared the same land mass, or if like Madagascar broke off from a part where many South Americans came from, and the lines have not evolved as vastly as other Africans. It just seems like there is a strong link between the two groups.

[Carl]

I too think this was/is a good idea!

In fact I have bought back fish from customers or others knowing there was a problem, for two reasons, so that I could compare treatments in a controlled environment with a known introduced pathogen (vs. a pathogen that developed where the exact origin in unknown), and as you did, often this would take fish off the hands of persons unable to or even unwilling to treat them properly.
Usually I had a few large clients with multiple tanks that would let me use their tank space for side by side treatments, with the stipulation that these fish would become theirs in the end.

Based on what you noted, I think water quality is first and foremost along with the lower stress levels for getting these fish healthy again.
Added salt as well as increased calcium cations would help as well in recovery.

I think the Baths are also usually a good start.
Melafix generally is a good first aid treatment and is also somewhat useful for gram positive infections. However these fish may have moved past this and have Aeromonas (which is common in poor water conditions), Fungus (Saprolegnia), or maybe even Columnaris.

Pimafix can be safely combined with Melafix and will help broaden your spectrum of treatment. Triple Sulfa is also a relatively safe with few side affects and is often a good early treatment for what you have described)

See also this article for more:
Aquarium Medications

Carl

[barbara]

Thanks Carl. After taking a good look at them last night, the improvement is amazing already. They are still fairly shy, but have great appetites. The scratches on them are mostly healed now, and they are starting to look a lot better.

I will give them a water change today and really take a close look at their injuries. If I think they need more medications, I'll definitely pick them up.

Walt and I discussed it, and if these fish heal well, we're going to take them to another store where they will be well cared for, and see if we can buy a few more out of that tank, and try to heal those as well. The more I can take out of bad conditions, the better off both the ones I have, and the ones remaining at the store will be. I don't want a whole bunch of these fish, but I wouldn't mind a pair of them.

[babygeige]

I'm glad they're getting better. I think your plan of healing as many as possible is very admirable. I hope it all works out for you!

[barbara]

Well, I picked up 2 more today, and I can't sell them off to another store. So, I have 8, and will take a loss on them when I get a pair or 2 out of them. I took 2 of the smallest, hoping they were females, and to get them out of that tank. The ones at the store are looking pretty good, and they are treating with Triple Sulfa there already. They have a long way to go, but they are improving.

As soon as the medication is done, I'll move them to a 75 gallon, where they will have more room. I have one dominant already, who is unphased by any movement around the tank, including water changes. He's jet black all of the time, and is sort of a bully.

[goldenpuon]

It's very kind of you to continue to buy these fish. It is also great that the store is so cooporating and treating them. Some stores I know of would do nothing if their fish were sick. Congrats to you for saving these fish.

[sammiesam]

YAY good job with the fish and I know where you're coming from. I'm one of those people that goes, if I don't get this fish, no one will and he'll die here.
That's how I got my very first fish ever, Fred my first beta, and he ended up living 3 years So good for you and you're clearly not the only one that does it, so it's not such a bad idea.