Deep Substrate Aquariums

[kagome]

Hey all!

I've been doing a lot of research into deep substrate aquariums. I'm seeing a lot of claims that, if you create a deep sand bed, augmented with lots of lava rock and soil, that you can create an anaerobic layer that will nitrify and denitrify wastes in a freshwater aquarium.

There are lots of YouTube channels, like Father Fish, that claim that deep substrate tanks don't need water changes, that they require almost no maintenance as long as you get a self sustaining ecosystem going and don't overfeed.

This goes against pretty much everything I was taught all these years in the aquarium hobby and I was curious to get some thoughts and ideas with it.

[Carl]

I've used deep substrate aquariums going back decades.

They definitely do a good job, especially in low density fish aquariums.

Where I strongly disagree (which I have heard strange claims like this from Father Fish, which leaves me very suspect of his real/actual experience), is the matter of a self sustaining ecosystem. This is impossible in a closed system (which an aquarium is closed) as the earth being flat.
I speak to that in my aquarium chemistry article, as even in Amazon River Bio type aquariums, you still need the input of minerals (including Cations). In an open system, such as the actual Amazon River, these mineral nutrients are being constantly being supplied from up river in the Andes mountains.

Honestly, reading that such irresponsible, unscientific garbage is being spewed out there in social media leaves me rather speechless, especially when one considers the popularity of such channels such as Father Fish . I am honestly glad to be done with this industry when I read/hear such cr##

Chemistry Article:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/chemistry.html

QUOTE (from above article)
"An aspect that GH & Calcium with Amazon River/ SE Asia Water that is missed by many (as per my email and other conversations) is that while the Amazon River may be a very low GH, this is an open environment where mineral cations are constantly replenished from the Andes Mountains. Similar is for the monsoonal flows in SE Asia (although not as regular).

However, an aquarium IS A CLOSED ENVIRONMENT and depletion of mineral cations can be very quick, especially when lower GH levels are maintained (see the earlier section about "Depletion of Positive Ions") and we already know the importances of GH.

This closed environment aspect is missed by many who promote methods such as Biotope or natural environment aquariums which simulate an environment that is closes to nature. While I am certainly not against a "natural" environment for Amazon River or similar type fish, just understand the importance of proper levels of mineral ions. No one should ignore the FACT that these fish still require mineral cations for proper health and Redox balance! Correct levels of mineral cations have been proven important in many places throughout my articles.

Unlike in an open system that have mountains and rivers replenishing these minerals, these mineral cations are often driven out with many methods of establishing a Biotope aquarium. The aquarium keeper is unlikely to know how important these proper trace minerals are for long term health of the fish.

Here is an example in saltwater world: For years many salt mixes and even sellers of actual saltwater for marine aquariums (including myself) advertised that their product was 99-100% like that of the ocean in chemical makeup. This is something you used to see, but you will no longer see this by better manufacturers.

This is not bragged about anymore as it has been well established in a closed saltwater aquarium system, that certain elements such as buffers and calcium must be in a higher supply as they are depleted much more quickly. I also found this out in experiments early in the 1980s where I used ocean water that was aged 30 days to prevent disease introduction thinking I would get better results when in reality the opposite turned out to be true. THIS ALSO APPLIES TO FRESHWATER!

So please, remember this when you set up your Biotope aquarium or any aquarium for that matter; make sure to supply at least some mineral cations, and do not use soft water or products that will precipitate out these mineral cations!!!

The bottom line is this closed environment aspect of an aquarium is missed by so many. For this reason, this is why I have achieved better results with partial or sometimes full RO water use along with Replenish & Alkaline Buffer initially followed with a regular 1/4 to 1/2 normal dose of Wonder Shell over products such as Equilibrium in an Amazon River biotope!

For those who still do not understand biochemistry as it applies to fish and all animals; and believe this is the only article that states the importance of calcium and other positive mineral ions for Discus, Bettas, German Rams, or even Shrimp. I suggest reading some of the research into Redox Balance (& Mamoon Kundi pHd work in the area of Redox Reduction) or read others such as Atison Phumchoosri or Marc Weiss (both well known for their work with soft water fish)!
"

[kagome]

I totally agree that some of these channels are touting things that just aren't possible. I'm not expecting a self-sustaining ecosystem.

My interest is cutting down on maintenance. I'd like to try converting at least one of my 8 tanks to a "nature" aquarium: loads of plants, deep substrate that consists of lava rock and soil capped with inert sand.

I do want to treat it less like a tank and more like an ecosystem, make sure to add helpful organisms from other tanks, like snails, shrimp, copepods.

I plan on keeping the bioload fairly light.

I'm also not trying to go filterless. The 40 gallon I have in mind to try already has 2 large sponge filters. I'll use these but change out the substrate. I know I'll need to add in some water to replace minerals (although, my water is very soft and doesn't do much. I add shrimp king minerals to replacement water once a month).

I think all this will be a very interesting experiment

[Carl]

I kept several tanks this way at the Bahooka Restaurant that I maintained their tanks for many years back. Since I had full control of the aquariums there, including feeding, this place was great for such experiments

[kagome]

Does the deep substrate actually lessen the need for water changes?

And when you set up a tank like this, you shouldn't try to vacuum the substrate, correct?

[Carl]

Nov 26, 2023 14:15:46 GMT -5 kagome said:

Does the deep substrate actually lessen the need for water changes?

Yes, from my experience. But mineral/Cation depletion still needs to be accounted for (some will come from food decomp, but not enough)

And when you set up a tank like this, you shouldn't try to vacuum the substrate, correct?

No, I've found vacuuming is still important, especially the top layer. But just with water changes, the frequency goes down.
You can also simply use a battery vac that does not remove water, but this then does not allow for mineral rich new water to needs replaced (assuming the water source is indeed mineral rich, as many sources, including where I live now as compared to when I was conducting these experiments are mineral poor).
AAP Wonder Shells can certainly help in these situations and in a deep substrate aquarium in general. In fact this is where my experiments with this product started and where I noted the results were better

[devonjohnsgard]

Hi!
Sorry I'm late to the conversation. Birthday and Thanksgiving holidays, so took some time off.
I've been hearing a lot about Father Fish (and Dr Novak) as they've really been promoting their Youtube channels. Of recent more Father Fish.

His method isn't that new of an idea to the hobby. The way he keeps his fish shop, he found less maintenance methods.
We always want to promote an ecosystem and an established deeper bed substrate with plants is best.

I don't see where these methods are promoting the importance of removing depleted mineral ions. Then if need replenish them depending on the method.
This is the difference between an open and closed system.

Also don't want to give the false impression that there can't be more done to make an ecosystem even better for less maintenance and disease, example use of UV. Which would make Father Fish's and Dr Novak methods even better.

Dose KH and GH, base water changes on Nitrates and depletion of KH, and GH.