how many fish?

[kagome]

The initial cycling of my new 38g is going well. The ammonia is holding steady at 0.5 and I continue to do 2 1/2g water changes everyday plus every 2 weeks I do a 25% water change and use Prime as my water conditioner for all new water. The 3 small clown loaches in there are eating very well and seem to be growing nicely. I'm sure it will be a while before I can safely add more fish, but once I can I have questions about it.

1. I want to put angels and rams in the tank, probably the same number of each, how many can a tank of this size (38g) sustain without being overloaded?

2. Should I get the angels at a slightly larger size than the rams since the rams may squabble or should I try to get everyone about the same size?

3. Who should go in first? Should I put the angels in two or three at time and then add rams later? Vice versa? Or should I add a few from both groups at the same time?

Thanks in advance for the help guys, you rock!

Warmest regards, ;D
kagome

[jonv]

1. When I answer things like this on YA, I tend to stick with a conservative approach really. I feel better to have a lower number and less risk of aggression and stress issues, where you might have a slightly boring tank, then go more active and have a higher risk of something going wrong. In this case, I think you can do just fine with a pair of Angels, and maybe like 5-6 Rams. I tend to go higher on the Rams because they don't get quite as large and have a more peaceful mindset. Angels sometimes get nippy and nasty, and the only risk I can see here is if you get 2 males. I'm not as versed in SA types to know if 2 males have the same boundry problems as you get with Africans, but I'd have to think the footprint could support 2.

2. Close to 40 gallons of space, you probably have enough height in the tank where your Angels and Rams won't interact so if you want same size or bigger, I don't see that becomming a factor really. I'd tend to try to get as close to the same size as possible, and allow them to grow togeather. I cannot prove this, but I strongly suspect fish that grow up togeather have less chance of problems then ones that are added at different times. I have nothing to prove this, but just watching what I've seen with my Africans, those other types, like cories and catfish, the ones that are in a tank with Africans from the beginning have less adjustment issues then newer ones I add later on.

3. I'd opt for Rams first then Angels, though I don't think this matters based on levels they will occupy. Just in case there could be an issue, you have better odds putting in a substrate dweller first, then an upper level after.

[kagome]

Only a pair of angels? I thought it was bad to only have two of any sort of fish, but especially of any sort of Cichlid. How about 3 angels and 4 rams? Part of my thinking about this is that the rams don't live any where near as long as the angels do, so I thought that probably by the time the angels got to a good size the rams would be at the end of their life expectancy.

[Carl]

Nov 15, 2008 17:30:08 GMT -5 kagome said:

Only a pair of angels? I thought it was bad to only have two of any sort of fish, but especially of any sort of Cichlid. How about 3 angels and 4 rams? Part of my thinking about this is that the rams don't live any where near as long as the angels do, so I thought that probably by the time the angels got to a good size the rams would be at the end of their life expectancy.

I think Jon was giving a general suggestion.

I think 3 Angels and 4 Rams would be fine.

Make sure your water is right before adding the Rams, which I agree with Jon as to introducing them first (although I have done this both ways with success).

Since Rams are generally more sensitive, please be careful when acclimating them and as well try and provide as natural an environment as possible for maintaining water parameters as possible. I find products such as Bio Lif can be extremely beneficial for this as well as driftwood, Wonder Shells, etc.

Carl

[bikeguy33]

i have a slightly differing opinion on this one. i feel putting fish into a tank togeather is a better idea. like jon mentioned, and i have seen, fish that shouldnt get along get along well when introduced at the same time. they kinda grow up togeather. this is never more true than when you add them at a very young age. this way....no one ever has the chance to form a territory first and defend it. when added togeather, they will find their own little area. often i have seen unrelated fish school and even play togeather when introduced this way.

[murdock6701]

I too agree w/ Bill - and Jon ans Carl - all have good points - mopani wood is great for setting up driftwood - justmake sure you soak and rinse well for a couple of days or the pH goes way down! and don't use too large a piece - very tempting to buy big cuz it's so beautiful! good luck!

[kagome]

Thanks guys. I'm going to wait until this new tank is COMPLETELY done cycling before I put any more fish into it. Other than ammonia, which I am treating with Prime, my water parameters are good. I have a lot of flow in the tank with the HOB filter on one end and the sponge filter with a power head on the other. The temperature has been holding perfectly steady since two days after very first set up and water conditioning. I have a wondershell in there now and I got a bunch of extras last time I put in an order. Probably going to order driftwood the next time I put in an order to Carl. I'm actually lucky enough to live in an area where the water is excellent for discus, rams, and angels in general. Ph has also been completely stable and ideal. I just have to keep plugging along with testing ammonia, replacing 2 1/2g a day, adding Prime to change water, and making sure not to overfeed the loaches. Once my ammonia numbers go down and I'm sure that nitrates and nitrites are where they're supposed to be I'll start adding fish. I know I'm doing the right thing, but sometimes being patient is not the most fun thing in the world. I'm anxious to see if I can get this to all come together with the rams and angels. I hope I can pull this off!

[goldenpuon]

That sounds really good Kagome! Sounds lke your tank is doing very well. I too have a tank about the same size only it's for my feeder goldfish. They are rescues and deserve a big tank after spending 3 years in a 10. Good luck with your tank!

Can't wait to see pictures!

[Carl]

I think you will do fine!

I also now live in an area where the water is quite good for Rams, however most of my Ram keeping experience was back in LA where the water was terrible for Rams (great for Rift Lake Cichlids), however I still did generally OK, and when I did not it was often do to poor batches of fish since these guys can be sensitive and sometime do not get the care they need in shipping/handling along the way.

Carl

[kagome]

I am super lucky in that there is a responsible breeder in my local area and his fish are BEAUTIFUL!! When shipped to the LFS where I do my shopping they have only been transported across town. Also, the guys who run the LFS are totally awesome and really know what they're doing. The same guy who breeds the rams used to also breed discus but they don't sell well around here because I live in an area where people tend to be super cheap unless they're the serious marine tank keepers. But now he breeds rams, angels, and a whole bunch of fancy plecos. I wish I knew him, I'd love to go to his house and see his tanks!

Renee--the memory card on my camera is full, as soon as I get a DVD made I'll take and post pics of the new tank.

[eve]

how many rams you can have, really depends on the length of your tank
if it's a 3 foot tank, no more then 1 pair of rams
if it's a 4 foot tank you can have 2 pairs of rams

as for angels, i wouldn't get more then a mated pair
don't get them in 3's or you will have a dead one by the time of them pair off

there are many other dither fish you can add though

as for the order, get the angels first and then the rams
rams need absolutely perfect conditions

[kagome]

Eve--The tank is 44" long, 20" tall and 10 1/2" from front to back. Only small size angels are readily available. Will that be OK? How do I tell a female from a male with the angels?

[eve]

so that's almost 4 feet, that will be ok for 2 pairs of rams

as for sexing angels, impossible
you won't know until they actually pair off
or you have a reputable LFS, who you can trust, which will sell you already paired off angels

however, if you need to do the pairing off yourself, by buying 4-6 angels, make sure you get the ones out, which need to go out right away
or you will see big time aggression

only 100% way to tell them apart, when you witness the female laying eggs

[murdock6701]

if I may add something too, sexing rams is not the easiest I found either if they're younger than 4 months and at that age I'm sure most will agree their colors change so much it's hard to tell sometimes minute to minute depending on the light angles in the tank....best of luck!

[eve]

i absolutely agree with you murdock, it's indeed very hard

[kagome]

At this point I have decided against the rams. I just don't think it will work out unless I make some other major investments that I'm not willing or able to make right now. So I'm trying to decide on something else AND get my husband to agree to it, not an easy task. I thought I would go with angels since the tank is pretty much perfect for them. But then my husband was whining that a single species tank is boring and that he wants something else. I was thinking of some green severums. We used to have some full-size golds in our old 45g and they did really well, we had them for ten years until we sold them. It's funny that my husband was unhappy about the angels but then he was all about the severums. I guess he just likes them better. So now I have two questions:

1. What else goes well with angels and clown loaches that's hardy?

2. Could I have two full size green severums in a 38g with 4 clown loaches and probably a pleco eventually or is that too much of a bio-load? (I know severums and the loaches are compatible, I had them together before)

Thanks for all your help guys!

[Carl]

Nov 26, 2008 14:45:48 GMT -5 kagome said:

At this point I have decided against the rams. I just don't think it will work out unless I make some other major investments that I'm not willing or able to make right now. So I'm trying to decide on something else AND get my husband to agree to it, not an easy task. I thought I would go with angels since the tank is pretty much perfect for them. But then my husband was whining that a single species tank is boring and that he wants something else. I was thinking of some green severums. We used to have some full-size golds in our old 45g and they did really well, we had them for ten years until we sold them. It's funny that my husband was unhappy about the angels but then he was all about the severums. I guess he just likes them better. So now I have two questions:

1. What else goes well with angels and clown loaches that's hardy?

2. Could I have two full size green severums in a 38g with 4 clown loaches and probably a pleco eventually or is that too much of a bio-load? (I know severums and the loaches are compatible, I had them together before)

Thanks for all your help guys!

There are plenty of "hardy" fish that can/could go with the fish you noted, the problem is space at this point.

I know others may disagree, but I know you CAN keep the above combination successfully in you approx. 40 gallon aquarium as I know I have kept similar combinations (not the exact).
I will go a step further (as I noted in a PM) that tank size, fish numbers, fish temperament are certainly important parts of the fish bio load/number question, HOWEVER what is also often forgotten is filtration, decor and chemistry.

I performed MANY controlled test/studies using goldfish about 10 years ago and found I could not only keep goldfish in numbers generally considered higher than the popular numbers (1 adult per 10 gallons is the generally recommended number) but that they lived long and disease free lives.

What was the other keys were excellent chemistry which included the usual low nitrites/ammonia/nitrates, but also adequate mineralization, proper Redox, very good redundant filtration, AND UV Sterilization (which improves Redox as well).

See this article for more:
Aquarium Answers; Fish Stunting

Carl

[kagome]

Thanks Carl.

As for filtration I have a HOB that is a 20-40. Then on the other end of the tank I have the sponge filter with the powerhead that I ordered from you that is meant for a 15-35g. I tend to like to over filter my tanks (if there is such a thing) so in my opinion the filtration could be better. I asked my husband for a UV sterilizer for Christmas which I would also add to this tank. I can just see the eye rolling now if I ask to get a bigger or another filter for that tank. It's all good fun though, he might roll his eyes but then he just gets me what I asked for anyway. I'm a lucky girl.