AAP Premium Carnivore

[victor448]

I have multiple 2 foot plus predatory catfish that in the past when fed Paradigm,the food would be swallowed with at least 20 percent turning into a fine powder that would get all over the aquarium and then be ignored. Would there be an issue with grinding the AAP Carnivore in a food processor and mixing in some agar agar and a little water and then freezing it and then cutting it into large pellet/disc form. So the fish would be more likely to swallow it whole. I am trying to stay away from wheat flour and other water fouling fillers as per your articles.

[victor448]

Sorry,
Posted this in the wrong area. Can it be moved to an appropriate place?

[devonjohnsgard]

That would be fine yes. From what I know, that happens with all pellet food. Flakes too? I like your idea.

[victor448]

Thanks for the reply. The fish nutrition article is excellent.Yet can someone tell me more specifically how Clay came to the conclusion that 21.1 percent fiber is optimal for carnivores. I just want to know the science behind it. I understand the need to lower the protein levels and the importance of energy level optimization. As well as the amino acid composition of the pea flour. I am particularly interested in how the pea flour doesn't effect the ecology of the aquarium. Does the intestinal microbiota eat a percent of the carbohydrate in the fiber itself leaving the undigestable fiber in the waste. On the negative side, do the antinutrients in the pea flour effect absorption of some of the nutrients from the food itself and maybe lead to gastrointestinal upset along with the high fiber levels?

[devonjohnsgard]

Aug 21, 2017 20:49:41 GMT -5 victor448 said:

Thanks for the reply. The fish nutrition article is excellent.Yet can someone tell me more specifically how Clay came to the conclusion that 21.1 percent fiber is optimal for carnivores. I just want to know the science behind it. I understand the need to lower the protein levels and the importance of energy level optimization. As well as the amino acid composition of the pea flour. I am particularly interested in how the pea flour doesn't effect the ecology of the aquarium. Does the intestinal microbiota eat a percent of the carbohydrate in the fiber itself leaving the undigestable fiber in the waste. On the negative side, do the antinutrients in the pea flour effect absorption of some of the nutrients from the food itself and maybe lead to gastrointestinal upset along with the high fiber levels?

I think this article Clay wrote will help.

www.everything-aquatic.com/2014/12/probiotics-prebiotics-soluble-fiber-and.html

I know he upped it as high as he could for the benefit, but not to cause constipation or diarrhea.

[victor448]

www.researchgate.net/publication/237046544_Anti-nutritional_Factors_in_Plant_Feedstuffs_Used_in_Aquafeeds

Please ask Clay to have a look at this article. There are other ones as well that address anti nutrients in legumes. It's a widely discussed concept in human nutrition as well. I understand the reasoning used in the article recommended to me as the positive side of a high fiber diet in fish but has there been studies on a potential negative impact in fish over time. The fiber that carnivores get in the wild would likely be made up of insect exoskeletons,plant matter and shells of crustacaens etc.

[devonjohnsgard]

Aug 22, 2017 21:07:21 GMT -5 victor448 said:

www.researchgate.net/publication/237046544_Anti-nutritional_Factors_in_Plant_Feedstuffs_Used_in_Aquafeeds

Please ask Clay to have a look at this article. There are other ones as well that address anti nutrients in legumes. It's a widely discussed concept in human nutrition as well. I understand the reasoning used in the article recommended to me as the positive side of a high fiber diet in fish but has there been studies on a potential negative impact in fish over time. The fiber that carnivores get in the wild would likely be made up of insect exoskeletons,plant matter and shells of crustacaens etc.

This is what I got back from Clay. He was trying to leave for a job, so it was a short converision.

"with carnivores ash makes more sense. From the bones and exoskeletons of their pray"
" It appears to me they are promoting phytase to increase digestibility of plant protein and other nutrients."
" I like fiber over minerals because it's easier on the organs"
" The article is talking about replacing fish meal with soybean meal etc."
" We don't have the problem he is discussing"
" If we made our food using full fat soy meal we would"
" It's because grain is cheaper than fishmeal so they are using it more in diets."

[victor448]

Thanks for all your efforts in trying to answer my questions. The purpose of me sending the article was to emphasize the role of antinutrients that are present in legumes including pea flour. Based on multiple scientific articles it is shown that anti nutrients detract from nutrition in feeds. I was curious why this does not appear to be a concern as an ingredient in the carnivore product. I like the fact that the pea flour adds prebiotics, lowers the protein and lessens the carbohydrate released in the waste as opposed to wheat flour which has no value to the fish and pollutes the water by acting as a nutirient source for pathogenic heterotrophic bacteria. From my standpoint the anti nutrients are a problem particularly if it's the main food you feed. That aside all the other ingredients are optimal in my opinion. If I am wrong please explain to me why and recommend me a source for your information if there is one. Thanks again for your time and interest.

[victor448]

When weighing the potential pro and cons of the various foods out there, I decided to give your product a try. What I am trying to accomplish is to minimize the fish waste and maximize the nutrition. I read today that peas and green beans have some of the lowest antinutrient levels of the legumes so the antinutrient level in your product is less of a potential problem than I originally thought. By reading the articles on your site, I understand the reasons that led you to your conclusions regarding the benefits of increased fiber in the food. Is this a hypothesis or do you have experimental evidence that ledto your current formula? As an aside youmay or may not know Bobs Red Mill is no longer making the pea flour.

[devonjohnsgard]

Aug 25, 2017 22:58:49 GMT -5 victor448 said:

When weighing the potential pro and cons of the various foods out there, I decided to give your product a try. What I am trying to accomplish is to minimize the fish waste and maximize the nutrition. I read today that peas and green beans have some of the lowest antinutrient levels of the legumes so the antinutrient level in your product is less of a potential problem than I originally thought. By reading the articles on your site, I understand the reasons that led you to your conclusions regarding the benefits of increased fiber in the food. Is this a hypothesis or do you have experimental evidence that ledto your current formula? As an aside youmay or may not know Bobs Red Mill is no longer making the pea flour.

Clay is going to come onto the forum ans continue this conversion. He said maybe tomorrow.

[victor448]

Sounds great!

[devonjohnsgard]

Clay answered this in the other spot you asked the question.

"Regarding Anti-nutrients there are three types in fish food that serve different purposes:

1) Moisture or water is needed to mix the ingredients while making fish food. In pellet food the moisture content is around 10% and in our dehydrated food its around 5%. As you might guess water has no benefit and does no harm as long as the moisture content is around or below 10%.

2) Fiber does help move waste through the intestinal tract. Too much fiber in the food would cause diarrhea. However at an inclusion rate of around 21% I have never noticed or had anyone mention this being a problem. If it were a problem the food would pass through the intestinal tract so quickly that the fish wouldn't be able to get nutrients from the food. Over a period of time this would result in very skinny fish which simply hasn't happened.

3) Minerals or ash is absorbed by the fish as needed. Excess minerals are stored in the organs. In great excess the minerals stored in the organs can become toxic. However whole menhaden fish meal contains around 20% mineral content from the bones and cartilage in the fish. Obviously whole menhaden meal mimics the diet of a carnivore. I don't believe carnivores need that level of minerals. I don't know how carnivores process the excess minerals. I can't find any research on this subject and I doubt there is any. However I will continue looking. "

[victor448]

Clay, Thanks for the reply. I understand there is a paucity of information on how fish should really be fed. Let alone attempting to recreate a wild diet in captivity. As a total package in my opinion your food fits the bill with current the info I can find. The wheat will not be missed. I will give you feedback on how my fish do on this food. One other question.Do you dehydrate the food at a high enough temp to inactivate the thiaminase?

[devonjohnsgard]

Aug 29, 2017 21:07:48 GMT -5 victor448 said:

Clay, Thanks for the reply. I understand there is a paucity of information on how fish should really be fed. Let alone attempting to recreate a wild diet in captivity. As a total package in my opinion your food fits the bill with current the info I can find. The wheat will not be missed. I will give you feedback on how my fish do on this food. One other question.Do you dehydrate the food at a high enough temp to inactivate the thiaminase?

Clay has not looked into it specifically, but with some quick research, it looks to not be a problem. The food is dehydrated at 150 F... There's studies with thiaminase being destroyed at 150-180 F in 5 mins. Depending on the fish meal it might take closer to 180 F others take only 150 F. This is also saying 5 mins of dehydration time. The food is processed much longer than 5 mins.

[victor448]

I have been using the AAP carnivore. It's appears very palatable to the fish and creates less waste than the wheat flour laden products. Along with all the other benefits. In catfish with big mouths roughly one foot and up they eat it but a powder of it comes out all over the tank from the act of chewing and swallowing the food,which then gets ignored. I tried grinding it up in a food processor and added agar agar then freezing it ,yet the same problem occurred. Is it possible to make this product into a pellet? If so can you recommend how to do it or would you have enough of a market to do it yourself ? I would love to be able to make this food the one I use.
Thanks

[Carl]

Sept 23, 2017 12:13:01 GMT -5 victor448 said:

I have been using the AAP carnivore. It's appears very palatable to the fish and creates less waste than the wheat flour laden products. Along with all the other benefits. In catfish with big mouths roughly one foot and up they eat it but a powder of it comes out all over the tank from the act of chewing and swallowing the food,which then gets ignored. I tried grinding it up in a food processor and added agar agar then freezing it ,yet the same problem occurred. Is it possible to make this product into a pellet? If so can you recommend how to do it or would you have enough of a market to do it yourself ? I would love to be able to make this food the one I use.
Thanks

This is definitely a case where every food has its flaw, in this case for a larger catfish. Generally with catfish like this, I preferred to use a wafer

Unfortunately the crumble form was part of what we were looking for since the process of making a pellet looses nutrients. so in solving this issue, we would creat more issue. Kinda like fixing something to help one or two while making it worse for the majority

Carl