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Post by keightley on Apr 11, 2017 2:12:02 GMT -5
Hello All - I apologize now as this is a very long post. I desperately begging some help designing my aquarium filtration setup. I have been asking questions at aquaponics discussion boards and I think I have a good idea of the sizing of things. I have posted a similar questions on these aquaponics boards but I think that I have either burned the members out with my questions or they truly do not know the answer. So I thought I would come here and ask my remaining questions before I go spend a bunch of money on aquarium equipment and parts, mainly a custom built sump tank, a custom built grow bed, grow media, plants, a bell siphon, 2 water pumps, and a UV sterilizer and various plumping parts. Here are the basics of my system. I have a 200 gallon tank. I will be raising 28 fancy goldfish. Granted I realize that most will think my tank is overstocked. But with an aquaponics system of filtration, I will be understocked at least according to the extensive research I have seen into this topic of stocking. Besides, if I see my adult fish struggling I will reduce the number of fish by selling them off. After all, a well groomed oranda of 5 inches long can go for about $50 to $300! I plan to start with juveniles. Gold fish that are between 1 to 3 inches. The grow bed I think I have settled on will be 96"L x 12"H x 30"D. The grow bed will be located above the aquarium and be my sole source of water filtration removing ammonia and nitrates from the water column. I also want to add a uv sterilizer some place in the system. The water will be removed from the aquarium with a solid lifting overflow pumped to the grow bed with an external water pump. The grow bed will have a bell siphon thus returning the water to the aquarium. I have had a few of ideas for adding the uv sterilizer to this system. The most simple way I though of was to add the AAP internal UV submersible sterilizer directly to the aquarium. But 200 gallons is on the upper end of aquarium size that american aquarium products recommends. So I do not know how effective the internal sterilizer will be for my system. In fact my system will be about 236 gallons if you factor in the water that the grow bed will hold at any one time. My second option is that I could do a separate intake and return specifically for the uv sterilizer. If I find that the grow bed is not sufficient filtration for 28 goldfish, having a separate intake and return for the UV sterilizer will allow me to easily add a canister filter or fluidized sand bed filter to the system. My third idea is to add a sump tank to filtration system. The water flow would go from the aquarium to the external water pump by the solids lifting overflow. The dirty water will be pumped up into the grow bed. The clean water would flow out of the grown bed to the sump by a bell siphon. The water then will flow from the sump, through the uv sterilizer, and into the aquarium. I imagine there would be one external pump located between the aquarium and the grow bed. A second pump would be located in the sump pumping water from the sump through the UV sterilizer back to the aquarium. So here is my question, which of the three options would be the best for a system like this? Option 1 would be the most economical and easiest. Option two would allow me to expand filtration further if I need to. Option three will ensure the fish tank water height to remain constant regardless of how full or empty the grow bed is if the system is plumb correctly. I am leaning heavily towards option 3. But I cannot figure out how to regulate the flow of water in and out of the sump tank so that sump and subsequently the uv sterilizer does not run dry. I assume that if the UV sterilizer runs dry for any length of time is a bad thing. So if the grow bed is emptying water into the sump intermittently yet the water is being withdrawn from the sump into the UV sterilizer constantly, how do I keep the sump from either overflowing or running dry? I calculate that my grow bed will hold approximately 67 gallons of water which will sequently flow into the sump intermittently. UV sterilization requires that the entire system water be turned over through the uv sterilizer 1.5 times per hour. My system will have approximately 267 gallon, which mean that I need 400 gallons to flow through the UV sterilizer into the aquarium per hour. So how many gallons per hour will need to flow from the aquarium to the grow bed and then into the sump? 400 gallons per hour? That would mean that if the pump between the aquarium and grow bed runs continuously, the grow bed will dump 67.5 gallons into the sump 6 times an hour. So it will take the grow bed 10 minutes to fill and then flow to the sump tank. So do I need to find a pump that is rated at 400 gph at the grow bed taking in consideration head height? So the gallons per hour on the pump between the aquarium to the grow bed should be a bit more than 400 gph. Do I get the same pump for the UV sterilizer? Should I use an electronic hi-lo pump switch such as this one I found at www.plumbingsupply.com/sumpcontroller.html ? What about the size of the sump tank? Since this tank is only sitting 8 inches above the floor, the sump will sit behind the tank directly on the floor. I am considering two different size tanks. The smaller one will be 70 gallons (72"L x 38"H x 6"D). The larger one will be 142 gallons (72"L x 38"H x 12"D). I rather go with the smaller one. Will the smaller sump be big enough for these purposes? This is so complicated, my head is spinning. So if anyone is smart enough to help me figure this out which is probably everyone here, I would be beyond grateful. Cheers, Keightley
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Post by Carl on Apr 11, 2017 9:29:02 GMT -5
Welcome to Everything Aquatic! Could you provide a diagram of your plans? For long term success, I would go with an inline UV, not the submersible. A 25 Watt Vecton will last much longer (by years), and perform much more effective UV Sterilization. Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/TMCUVSterilizer.htmlAs short answer (I will await a diagram before I make more comments) is that if I understand correctly, the grow bed will be above the aquarium which is essentially your filter. This is a similar idea to the Veggie/Bog filter I have used in ponds, which are highly successful. You should be able to place the UV in line with clean water coming from this grow bed and basically the aquarium is therefore the "sump". The normal equalization of water pumped from the aquarium should ensure a correct balance of water, depending upon placement of the pump inside the aquarium. Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 11, 2017 12:59:51 GMT -5
Welcome welcome welcome! Interesting project.
Not thinking about raising something like tilapia instead of goldfish?
Option 3 kinda confuses me... which I agree a diagram would be best.
I'm leaning towards option to, with a inline sterilizer, then I would just put a large sponge on the intake of the pump to the sterilizer, which would give a great large amount of bio filtration. And would be the best valve $ wise for amount of filtration you get. Would be easy to clean too. These filters hold so much load that they can be considered "nitrate factories", but that's prefect for your plants.
Interested in pictures as you go along with the build! There's a build blog section here on the forum...
Welcome again!
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Post by keightley on Apr 11, 2017 16:45:20 GMT -5
Here are some rough, rough drawings. The first sketch is the one I just made with MS Publisher so it is very crude. It is show my idea of the compact small footprint design of the second drawing. This is called a constant height, one pump system (CHOP) system. Since my grow bed sits above the aquarium, I cannot use gravity to bring the water from the aquarium to the grow bed. I will need a water pump to do that work. Gravity will make the water flow into the sump tank through a bell siphon. Then I will need another pump to return the water back to the aquarium through a UV sterilizer. This next picture is the current state of my aquarium. My goal is to have the grow bed begin just at the bottom of the window. That way when I pull the blinds up the plants get a lot of sun, but the aquarium doesn't thus controlling tank algae and anyone who will snark to my property management company that I have a huge aquarium in my apartment. All they will see is a window planter with lots of houseplants mainly lucky bamboo and pathos. Cheers, Keightley
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Post by keightley on Apr 11, 2017 16:55:11 GMT -5
I finally received some answers on the aquaponics boards that I posted question to. After reading their comments and advice I think I might do without the sump tank. Besides if anything should happen to the sump, it will be virtually impossible to reach and fix. I would have to tear down the entire system! I am now thinking it would be best to have a separate canister filter with its own intake and return which pumps water through a UV sterilizer. The canister will have to sit to the side of the aquarium. If the outflow of water to the grow bed is at far top right and the return to the far left, where would the intake and return go for the canister/UV Sterilizer? Below is a picture the design for the Solid Lifting Outlet that will remove the water from the aquarium and flow to a water pump that will take the water to the grow bed. This overflow design almost guarantees that I will not have to vacuum up fish waste and the air bubbles provide extra oxygen and circulation. So if the water is circulating from the back of the tank to the front, where does the canister/UV sterilizer intake and return go to either add to or not disturb the water circulation of the aquarium? Can I split the water flowing from the solids lifting outlet to the canister and the rest to external water pump subsequently the grow bed? I need some water with solid waste to reach the grow bed. The worms living in the grow bed use the solids as a food source. Aside from composting fish waste, I have been reading other benefits to having them in the system (i.e. fish food). Then could the canister return be a spray bar that sits at the top back of the aquarium returning the water gently back to the aquarium adding to the water flow? I would love to know your thoughts and advice on this. Thankfully yours, Keightley
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Post by Carl on Apr 12, 2017 11:40:13 GMT -5
I think this is a great idea!! The best location of an premium inline UV Sterilizer would be inline where the cleanest water would be (which as I noted earlier is what I would use for such an otherwise very top notch application you are building, not an economy submersible UV Sterilizer). If I am understanding this system correctly, this would be in a return line from your aquaponics tank. For best results, the UV would be mounted horizontal. Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Apr 12, 2017 13:45:43 GMT -5
Sounds like you got it figured out!
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Post by keightley on Apr 12, 2017 19:09:00 GMT -5
Maybe I have this figured out. I need help choosing an external pump. I had an ah-ha moment today when I realized I could use a pond canister. That way I don't need to split the water before it reaches the external water pump and the canister filter. I can split it after the external water pump. I have a very very rough sketch of the aquarium set up. The second image is one that better displays the water current in the aquarium that I am aiming for. So for this set up, what external water pump do you all recommend? The planter box will sit no more than 5 feet from the ground. The water from the canister will flow to a UV sterilizer. My goal is to get level 2 sterilization but that may be out of my price range. I have another posting on this. But if you all can answer here how to get level 2 sterilization economicaaly for upwards of 300 gallons which is an approximate of the entire volume of water that my aquaponic system will hold(water in aquarium + water in grow bed). So once the water goes through the UV sterilizer, it will flow back into the aquarium. The top of the aquarium will sit no more than 3 feet from the ground. The pump will sit 8 to 10 inches off the ground. The canister filter will sit on the ground. I know that the entire volume of water will need to flow through the grow bed and canister filter. So I am at least looking at a water pump that is rated at 300 gph. But then there is head pressure. I need to account for that. Also I am sure the entire volume of water will need to circulate more than once an hour for effective UV sterilization. And does anyone have a good recommendation for a pond filter for this specific application? Should I do a pressurized one or non-pressurized? All comments and recommendations would be greatly appreciated! I'd like to start ordering equipment this weekend. Thankfully yours, Keightley
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2017 8:47:21 GMT -5
So for this set up, what external water pump do you all recommend? The planter box will sit no more than 5 feet from the ground. The water from the canister will flow to a UV sterilizer. My goal is to get level 2 sterilization but that may be out of my price range. I have another posting on this. But if you all can answer here how to get level 2 sterilization economicaaly for upwards of 300 gallons which is an approximate of the entire volume of water that my aquaponic system will hold(water in aquarium + water in grow bed). So once the water goes through the UV sterilizer, it will flow back into the aquarium. The top of the aquarium will sit no more than 3 feet from the ground. The pump will sit 8 to 10 inches off the ground. The canister filter will sit on the ground. I know that the entire volume of water will need to flow through the grow bed and canister filter. So I am at least looking at a water pump that is rated at 300 gph. But then there is head pressure. I need to account for that. Also I am sure the entire volume of water will need to circulate more than once an hour for effective UV sterilization. And does anyone have a good recommendation for a pond filter for this specific application? Should I do a pressurized one or non-pressurized? I would recommend the AAP/Sunsun Pressurized Pond Filter; Model CPF-280Most external pumps have not done well long term, about the only one I have had a positive experience with is the LifeGuard Quiet One Model 3000 (780 gph/ 11' Head pressure). The model 2200 is about 581 gph, but I would suggest the larger one for your size aquarium. Carl
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Post by Carl on Apr 13, 2017 9:41:56 GMT -5
Another thought since you are thinking of an "in-line" pump (I prefer submersibles, but this would not likely work with the system you are proposing) QUOTE: "It is also noteworthy that even for in-line pump applications (many of the pumps we sell can work both submersed or in-line), that for in-line applications, ANY in-line pump must be placed below the top water level WITHOUT a siphon in the middle, and this includes ponds; in other words the water should flow level or better, down hill to the pump without Any obstructions/impediments on the way to the pump. Any and all pumps MUST be able to draw the water in before the pump can expel the water under pressure, REGARDLESS of pump size, pump flow, or head pressure All pumps must have water either primed by gravity or another method for initial start up and must be able to keep this siphon in the event of a power failure, if not possible, you need to re-evaluate your pump plumbing placement. It is for this reason, which includes my own practical experience, I usually do not recommend an inline pump for an aquarium or pond."From: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/PumpSpecifications.htmlCarl
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Post by keightley on Apr 13, 2017 13:23:24 GMT -5
Oh wow! I did not know that. So X-nay on the incorporating PVC overflow to the solids lifting outlet. LOL
I intend to place the pump towards the bottom of the aquarium just on the outside.
Cheers, Keightley
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Post by Carl on Apr 14, 2017 10:38:33 GMT -5
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Post by keightley on May 26, 2017 12:41:55 GMT -5
It has been a while since I have posted. I am still mulling over this setup and I have made some more changes. One... I got rid of the 220 gallon acrylic aquarium. Refurbishing was becoming too much work. I now have a 125 gallon glass aquarium. Next, I modified the stand design. The stand is approximately 18 inches to 20 inches high. This is so I have room for my third major change. I don't want to the water level in the aquarium to fluctuate which means a sump. They call this the CHIF PIST system which means "Constant Height In Fish Tank, Pump In Sump Tank". So I am back to the idea of incorporating a sump into the filtration system. The sump will be 20 gallons DIY sump. I can get a 20 gallon tank at PetSmart for about $40. When I build the baffles, I am thinking of incorporating a refugium in it for some nitrate removal even though the grow bed will do most of that work. Besides, I read that goldfish need to have plants in their diet. So this refugium will be used to grow such plants. I would really like to know if you all think this will work effectively to create a low maintenance healthy environment for my fancy goldfish. I am now planning for 9 goldfish. A very rough sketch is below. You will see that I am incorporating another 20 gallon sump tank. This will be used as an overflow from the grow bed. If all goes according to plan, this "sump" will be dry. I thought up some ways to use this tank for other temporary purposes as well. When I get a new fish or a fish becomes sick, I can use this tank to quarantine it with a simple sponge filter. I was also thinking I could grow live foods such as daphnia. Or if I need to expand the filtration system because the bioload becomes too much, I have another sump to do it with. The only thing not pictured is that I am still going to have a solids lifting overflow with a skimmer to take the water and fish waste out of the aquarium and into the sump. In regards to the UV sterilizer I need some more advice. Ultimately I want level 2 sterilization. So with a 125 gallon aquarium (or just under), I need to have a flow rate of about 375 gallons per hour. I calculate that I need a 27 watt to 47 watt UV bulb to achieve level 2 sterilization (375g divided by 12 watts/gallon and 375g divided by 8 watts/gallon respectively). So this is why I think I should go with the TMC Pro Clear Ultima 30. But the price tag of $275.99 is a bit steep compared to the TMC Vecton 6: V2 25 watt. My issue with going with the smaller one is that it is just under 27 watts, so I don't know if I will get level 2 sterilization. Furthermore, I read a side note on Carl's website that the TMC Vecton should be installed below the aquarium. My main tank will sit just 18 inches off the floor, so I don't know if installing it below the main tank is feasible. And I don't know what the effect would be if I did install it say at the bottom of the main tank behind it directly above the sump. What do you all think? Is getting the more expensive UV sterilizer a better solution to my set up? Or can I go with the cheaper one? Will installing it at the bottom of the main tank behind it above the sump pose any significant problems? Keightley
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Post by devonjohnsgard on May 26, 2017 14:47:38 GMT -5
It has been a while since I have posted. I am still mulling over this setup and I have made some more changes. One... I got rid of the 220 gallon acrylic aquarium. Refurbishing was becoming too much work. I now have a 125 gallon glass aquarium. Next, I modified the stand design. The stand is approximately 18 inches to 20 inches high. This is so I have room for my third major change. I don't want to the water level in the aquarium to fluctuate which means a sump. They call this the CHIF PIST system which means "Constant Height In Fish Tank, Pump In Sump Tank". So I am back to the idea of incorporating a sump into the filtration system. The sump will be 20 gallons DIY sump. I can get a 20 gallon tank at PetSmart for about $40. When I build the baffles, I am thinking of incorporating a refugium in it for some nitrate removal even though the grow bed will do most of that work. Besides, I read that goldfish need to have plants in their diet. So this refugium will be used to grow such plants. I would really like to know if you all think this will work effectively to create a low maintenance healthy environment for my fancy goldfish. I am now planning for 9 goldfish. A very rough sketch is below. You will see that I am incorporating another 20 gallon sump tank. This will be used as an overflow from the grow bed. If all goes according to plan, this "sump" will be dry. I thought up some ways to use this tank for other temporary purposes as well. When I get a new fish or a fish becomes sick, I can use this tank to quarantine it with a simple sponge filter. I was also thinking I could grow live foods such as daphnia. Or if I need to expand the filtration system because the bioload becomes too much, I have another sump to do it with. The only thing not pictured is that I am still going to have a solids lifting overflow with a skimmer to take the water and fish waste out of the aquarium and into the sump. In regards to the UV sterilizer I need some more advice. Ultimately I want level 2 sterilization. So with a 125 gallon aquarium (or just under), I need to have a flow rate of about 375 gallons per hour. I calculate that I need a 27 watt to 47 watt UV bulb to achieve level 2 sterilization (375g divided by 12 watts/gallon and 375g divided by 8 watts/gallon respectively). So this is why I think I should go with the TMC Pro Clear Ultima 30. But the price tag of $275.99 is a bit steep compared to the TMC Vecton 6: V2 25 watt. My issue with going with the smaller one is that it is just under 27 watts, so I don't know if I will get level 2 sterilization. Furthermore, I read a side note on Carl's website that the TMC Vecton should be installed below the aquarium. My main tank will sit just 18 inches off the floor, so I don't know if installing it below the main tank is feasible. And I don't know what the effect would be if I did install it say at the bottom of the main tank behind it directly above the sump. What do you all think? Is getting the more expensive UV sterilizer a better solution to my set up? Or can I go with the cheaper one? Will installing it at the bottom of the main tank behind it above the sump pose any significant problems? Keightley View AttachmentFrom what I know, the design seems right. I don't know about including a QT tank to the system, but it seems doable. I usually just keep it separate. With a 25 Watt, you would get high level 1 sterilization, which is really good. Really, what is needed is level 1 and you would be getting high level 1. I would personally be very happy with that. Maybe two 25 watts or s 25 and a 8 if you really want more. Also, the 30 watt is not instock in the US right now. It wont be until end of the year from what I'm hearing.
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Post by keightley on May 26, 2017 15:38:36 GMT -5
The only thing connecting the QT tank is an overflow pipe in the grow bed. So if somehow the bell siphon fails, the water will drain below to the QT tank, not overflow the grow bed onto my floor in my living room. I just have to figure out the piece of equipment that will trip off the pump if the grow bed overflow is activated. And I will not hard plumb this. When I use the second tank as QT tank, I will use a bucket of some sort as a temporary overflow catch.
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Post by keightley on May 26, 2017 17:36:51 GMT -5
Darn! Well, by the time I get this built and cycle maybe it will be in stock. LOL
So I went back in read my post "UV Sterilizer for 250 - 300 gallons" and I am still trying to wrap my brain about the math. As devonjohnsgard said, there are more things that I need to think of aside from UV sterilization about to keep my fancy goldfish healthy. But let's pretend I have these "things" under tight control. I am feeding my fish an extremely good diet and the chemistry of the water is perfection. And according to the standard stocking level recommendation for fancy goldfish (20 gallon the first goldfish, 10 gallons each additional fish), the tank will be under stocked if I have 9 goldfish. Lets also assume I am agitating the water surface with a spray bar return to the tank as well as an air bubble wand so that their is adequate dissolved oxygen for the goldfish. All there is left is to adjust, I think, is the UV sterilization. I understand from my previous post that connecting 2 TMC Vecton 600 25 watt UV sterilizers in succession is the same as having one 50 watt UV sterilizer. So if I push a flow rate of 375 gph, each gallon is getting 7 watts of UV exposure. One needs 8 to 12 gph per watts for level 2 sterilization, right? If I am correct having 7 gph per watt is definitely level 2 sterilization. It is not just "almost" or very close. Am I correct?
Now in regards to the TMC 110 UV sterilizer, we are all agreed. This is more than enough UV for a 125 gallon aquarium. But let pretend Santa gives me one for Christmas and I set it up on this tank. What would be the flow rate through this thing to get level 2 sterilization? 375 gallons? Or can I have a higher gph flow through it and still get level 2 sterilization? Instead of splitting the flow from my sump between the tank and the UV sterilizer (and I realize this is to slow down the flow through the sterilizer),could I connect the outtake from my sump directly to the TMC 110 with a flow rate of 750gph to 1250gph and still get level 2 sterilization? Mathematically it seems to work. I'd get 6.8 gph per watts (75gph/110watts) to 11.4 gph per watts (1250gph/110watts). I keep reading that goldfish need to have a filtration rate of 10x the aquarium volume so theoretically I should have a flow rate through my filtration system of 1250 gph. So would not the TMC 110 UV sterilizer be ideal based on the math?
And my last question of the day... If I can turn over the water at 1250 gph, how do I keep the current down in the tank? Fancy goldfish are not the best of swimmers. My thought on a solution is spray bars. Anyone know of a better solution?
Keightley
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Post by devonjohnsgard on May 27, 2017 12:17:01 GMT -5
Darn! Well, by the time I get this built and cycle maybe it will be in stock. LOL So I went back in read my post "UV Sterilizer for 250 - 300 gallons" and I am still trying to wrap my brain about the math. As devonjohnsgard said, there are more things that I need to think of aside from UV sterilization about to keep my fancy goldfish healthy. But let's pretend I have these "things" under tight control. I am feeding my fish an extremely good diet and the chemistry of the water is perfection. And according to the standard stocking level recommendation for fancy goldfish (20 gallon the first goldfish, 10 gallons each additional fish), the tank will be under stocked if I have 9 goldfish. Lets also assume I am agitating the water surface with a spray bar return to the tank as well as an air bubble wand so that their is adequate dissolved oxygen for the goldfish. All there is left is to adjust, I think, is the UV sterilization. I understand from my previous post that connecting 2 TMC Vecton 600 25 watt UV sterilizers in succession is the same as having one 50 watt UV sterilizer. So if I push a flow rate of 375 gph, each gallon is getting 7 watts of UV exposure. One needs 8 to 12 gph per watts for level 2 sterilization, right? If I am correct having 7 gph per watt is definitely level 2 sterilization. It is not just "almost" or very close. Am I correct? Now in regards to the TMC 110 UV sterilizer, we are all agreed. This is more than enough UV for a 125 gallon aquarium. But let pretend Santa gives me one for Christmas and I set it up on this tank. What would be the flow rate through this thing to get level 2 sterilization? 375 gallons? Or can I have a higher gph flow through it and still get level 2 sterilization? Instead of splitting the flow from my sump between the tank and the UV sterilizer (and I realize this is to slow down the flow through the sterilizer),could I connect the outtake from my sump directly to the TMC 110 with a flow rate of 750gph to 1250gph and still get level 2 sterilization? Mathematically it seems to work. I'd get 6.8 gph per watts (75gph/110watts) to 11.4 gph per watts (1250gph/110watts). I keep reading that goldfish need to have a filtration rate of 10x the aquarium volume so theoretically I should have a flow rate through my filtration system of 1250 gph. So would not the TMC 110 UV sterilizer be ideal based on the math? And my last question of the day... If I can turn over the water at 1250 gph, how do I keep the current down in the tank? Fancy goldfish are not the best of swimmers. My thought on a solution is spray bars. Anyone know of a better solution? Keightley For the 50 watt sterilizer, it would be 400-600 gph flow. The flow for a 110 would be 880-1320 gph. Considering how many gallons you have and the fish, the 50 watts seems like a better choice and you would get some serious level 2. The 110 seems overkill. Spray bars would be a good item.
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Post by Carl on May 27, 2017 12:26:30 GMT -5
As Devon stated, if you were a client of mine, I would install the Vecton 25, even if the Pond Advantage 30 were available. The only other consideration would be two Vecton 25s end to end or in a separate loop.
I definitely would not try and plumb a 110 UV with its 1.5 to 2" pipe fittings into such a small system
Carl
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