Nitrifying Bacteria

[goldenpuon]

I know this is a random question but can nitrifying bacteria survive out of water, like stay dorment for some time and survive? I'm just wondering this because if fish tanks are emptied but not starilized and then filled up again, if any of the nitrifying bacteria survive like laying dorment in the gravel and filter and such for several months.

Thanks!

[brenda]

No, they must have water and I thought air? I know the water part not sure on the other.

[Carl]

Nov 11, 2008 15:34:40 GMT -5 brenda said:

No, they must have water and I thought air? I know the water part not sure on the other.

Yes, and especially air (oxygen) as true nitrifying bacteria are Autotrophic and require oxygen abd die quickly without it.

Dry cycling or "waste digesters" are Heterotrophic, which is why they have longer shelf live.

Please see this article in the Nitrification section:
Aquarium/Pond Nitrogen Cycle

BTW, I just finished a larger update to this article and I am currently working on a new companion article dealing with de-nitrification and hydrogen sulfides.

Carl

[jonv]

I find it a little strange something like this would be asked as our forum group is very knowledgable in these things. I don't know what to say but never thought this process was not understood fully.



This is right in Carl's articles from

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

If you examine that diagram, you take out any of the links in that chain, the whole chain is going to get disrupted. Now you take something say like BioSpira which claims it's refridgerated, and thus causes it to go dormat, I don't know. I have tried this product with mixed results. I have seen drops in ammonia levels but nitrite didn't do anything. Then I've seen drops in nitrite levels but still had ammonia. I don't know what to think of this product, but outside of that, any shelf kept stuff that says it has dormant material, I'd very much doubt it. I personally think Cycle is a piece of chit.

The biggest point here though is mentioning specifically an aquarium or tank, emptied, and you keep the filter. That answer is clearly going to be a no. There is no doubt in my mind you would lose all bacteria in the media because of the loss of a direct O2 source passing over the media and the ammonia and nitrite. You have to keep an active source of both O2 and ammonia/nitrite passing over bacteria to save it. Shutting down a tank will always result in a restart of the nitrogen cycle.

[goldenpuon]

Sorry for not knowing this guys. I looked at the article. I knew that nitrifying bacteria required oxygen, I just didn't know if they could survive on things in a tank that was emptied if it was never cleaned out. Thanks for clarifying. I think I got confused with how people sell bacteria and expect it to live and if this meant the bacteria could become dormant or not in other situations. Sorry if this was an uneeded question.
.

[8 in the Corner]

The bacteria are called aerobic, I believe. That means they need oxygen to live and do their jobs.

This is why you must be careful when the power goes out and your filters stop moving oxygenated water over the filter media where the bacteria live. If they spend too long a time without O2, they die and become anaerobic, giving off gases that can kill your fish if they become concentrated. If you notice bubbles rising from your gravel when you vaccuum it, that is anaerobic gases that were collecting under your gravel where there was no water circulation.

So, if you don't vaccuum too often, it is always a good idea to stir the gravel once in a while to keep the anaerobic gases from collecting and poisoning your fish.

It is always a good idea to rinse off your filter cartridges when the power comes back on, before you restart the filters.

John

[kagome]

Umm, maybe this is a dumb question, but if the nitrifying bacteria can't live outside of the water then how do they get into a new tank? Especially if you're doing fishless cycling and so they have nothing to ride in on? I mean that don't just spontaneously generate out of nothing. So how do they get there? Wouldn't they have to travel in from some "dry" source?

[murdock6701]

I add an old biobag from one of my hobs.....

[Penycat]

Renee, there's not a dumb question anywhere ever. Jon, you have a pm. Honestly, I knew about this, but if asked wouldn't have been able to describe it in words to someone, so I'm glad you asked:)

[Carl]

Umm, maybe this is a dumb question, but if the nitrifying bacteria can't live outside of the water then how do they get into a new tank? Especially if you're doing fishless cycling and so they have nothing to ride in on? I mean that don't just spontaneously generate out of nothing. So how do they get there? Wouldn't they have to travel in from some "dry" source?

No dumb questions!

Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria are basically everywhere that oxygen and some moisture is present.
From the Nitrogen Cycle Article:
The desired Autotrophic aerobic bacteria of nitrifying bacteria are present everywhere (e.g., in the air), oxygen and at least some moisture is present (not in areas void of oxygen) (reference: 3). It is important to note that although the desired nitrifying species of bacteria are “all around us”, they do not readily store in sealed oxygen free containers (dying rapidly without oxygen), and it takes some time for the sparse air born nitrifying bacteria to populate an aquarium or pond, so do not expect these bacteria to “magically” populate your aquarium overnight, even a re-started aquarium will need to be re-populated (please see cycling methods further down in the article).

The bacteria are called aerobic, I believe. That means they need oxygen to live and do their jobs.

This is why you must be careful when the power goes out and your filters stop moving oxygenated water over the filter media where the bacteria live. If they spend too long a time without O2, they die and become anaerobic, giving off gases that can kill your fish if they become concentrated. If you notice bubbles rising from your gravel when you vaccuum it, that is anaerobic gases that were collecting under your gravel where there was no water circulation.

True nitrifying bacteria are Autotrophic aerobic bacteria generally belonging to the family Nitrobacteraceae.

Anaerobic bacteria are different bacteria, generally Heteotrophic (these bacteria can be aerobic or anaerobic), however these are different bacteria.

Quote from the article:
Denitrification is the process by which microorganisms convert nitrate (NO3) to nitrogen gas (N2). In terms of the global nitrogen cycle, denitrification serves to balance nitrogen fixation by removing fixed nitrogen (rather than supplying it) to the biosphere. Most denitrifying bacteria are heterotrophic (such as Paracoccus denitrificans and various pseudomonads), utilizing organic carbon, hydrogen or hydrogen sulfide as electron donor and nitrate as electron acceptor. The electron donor is oxidized (to CO2, water or sulfate) and nitrate is contemporaneously reduced to dinitrogen gas (N2). Denitrifying bacteria require a source of reductant (energy) and a source of oxidant (nitrate).

I agree that mixing substrate is often important, but the reason is to prevent your filter bed from healthy anaerobic filtration which produces harmless nitrogen gas to sulfate reduction (the production of hydrogen sulfides from Nitrates/Sulfur).

Please see this new artilce for more on this subject:
Aquarium Answers; Hydrogen Sulfides

Carl

[8 in the Corner]

Carl,
With the kind of knowledge you have, you should be teaching college courses. You should look into that.
John

[goldenpuon]

Sorry if this was already asnwered but I'm still a bit confused on it. If nitrifying bacteria are in the air, then how would removing the water from a tank kill all of them? I'd imagine that if some were stuck on a dried out filter carbon or in some gravel sitting in an emptied tank, a small amount of them might survive if what they need is oxygen, and do not necessarily have to live in water to survive. Of course I think the majority would probably perish with all the water being drained or get mixed in with the air so therefore the next time you started up the tank, there would be very few surviving bacteria left. Am I getting this at all?

I've always wondered where beneficial bacteria come from. Maybe this can be a good learning experience for all of us.

And Carl, I think it would be a great experience for you working educating people on fish in a colleg course. I second 8 on that.

[Carl]

Nov 12, 2008 14:27:09 GMT -5 8 in the Corner said:

Carl,
With the kind of knowledge you have, you should be teaching college courses. You should look into that.
John

THANK YOU ;D

Unfortunately I am not very patient at explaining things and tend to not have my brain and mouth "in sync" when explaining things ( I have spoken before classes in So. CA, but many of the students had a blank look on their faces.
Also when I had new employees at my previous business (& even my stint as a Candy Factory Production Mgr), often the assistant mgr. would stand next to me and follow up with my explanation with "Now let me translate for Carl".

In my articles, I constantly re-read and try and explain myself better with each re-write, especially since my brain and typing skills are not in sync either.

I have thought about this many times and also flight instruction as well, but I just do not think I have the natural ability to teach (I have related very well with employees, but that is a different ability).
Thanks for the affirmation though

Carl

[bikeguy33]

when the filter dries up renee....there isnt enough moisture to keep them alive. all bacteria is the most primitive living thing on earth....but they are quite primitive on their make-up. for each kind of bacteria....they need an exact condition to survive and reproduce. this is what NASA expects to find when they DO find any alien life form....

[Carl]

Sorry to add to the confusion, but if they are in the air, then how would removing the water from a tank kill all of them? I'd imagine that if some were stuck on a dried out filter carbon or in some gravel sitting in an emptied tank, a small amount of them might survive if beneficial bacteria are indeed air born.

Yes, however not enough survive to have adequate numbers for a healthy bio filter, hence a re-start of bio filtration is a must.

One reason for the "die off" is that generally when a functioning tank is shut down, the areas of highest nitrifying bacteria stagnate before drying, thus depriving the nitrifying bacteria of oxygen that they MUST have to survive.

Carl

[brenda]

Nov 12, 2008 15:04:38 GMT -5 Carl said:

Nov 12, 2008 14:27:09 GMT -5 8 in the Corner said:

Carl,
With the kind of knowledge you have, you should be teaching college courses. You should look into that.
John

THANK YOU ;D

Unfortunately I am not very patient at explaining things and tend to not have my brain and mouth "in sync" when explaining things ( I have spoken before classes in So. CA, but many of the students had a blank look on their faces.
Also when I had new employees at my previous business (& even my stint as a Candy Factory Production Mgr), often the assistant mgr. would stand next to me and follow up with my explanation with "Now let me translate for Carl".

In my articles, I constantly re-read and try and explain myself better with each re-write, especially since my brain and typing skills are not in sync either.

I have thought about this many times and also flight instruction as well, but I just do not think I have the natural ability to teach (I have related very well with employees, but that is a different ability).
Thanks for the affirmation though

Carl

You're like me...You know what your saying in your own head you just have a hard time explaining it in words to others so they know what you're saying. I do this all the time...

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl and Bill, that explains it better. I think I get it. I have always wonder things like this about nitrifying bacteria and now I know.

Nov 12, 2008 15:04:38 GMT -5 Carl said:

Nov 12, 2008 14:27:09 GMT -5 8 in the Corner said:

Carl,
With the kind of knowledge you have, you should be teaching college courses. You should look into that.
John

THANK YOU ;D

Unfortunately I am not very patient at explaining things and tend to not have my brain and mouth "in sync" when explaining things ( I have spoken before classes in So. CA, but many of the students had a blank look on their faces.
Also when I had new employees at my previous business (& even my stint as a Candy Factory Production Mgr), often the assistant mgr. would stand next to me and follow up with my explanation with "Now let me translate for Carl".

In my articles, I constantly re-read and try and explain myself better with each re-write, especially since my brain and typing skills are not in sync either.

I have thought about this many times and also flight instruction as well, but I just do not think I have the natural ability to teach (I have related very well with employees, but that is a different ability).
Thanks for the affirmation though

Carl

That's me too. I know how to explain some things, just not others. I'm bad at coming up with words sometimes to explain things that are complex like this my past post for instance. Some days when I type my brain is on vacation and other days, it's a lot simpler.

[kagome]

It's funny that you guys should be having this discussion about how Carl should be a college professor because I've been telling everyone that I refer to the website that reading Carl's articles is like taking a mini course in marine biology, organic chemistry, and microbiology. I have learned so much from Carl's articles in such a short period of time that it's just insane. I made an "A" in sophomore zoology and yet I think I've learned way more from Carl. Of course, I keep trying to read the article about lighting and I swear my brain just gets overloaded and smoke comes out my ears. But that's OK, some day I'll draw Carl into a philosophical discussion about the nature of being, prove to him that he can't prove to me that he even exists and then smoke will come out of his ears, mawooohaha. lol!

And Carl, don't worry about college students staring at you with blank expressions. I aspire to be a college professor and having tutored MANY of my classmates throughout the years, I've deduced that a slightly vacant expression is the natural state of about 90% of college students. Most of them are there because they want to make money someday, not to actually LEARN anything.

[Carl]

Thanks guys for all the kind compliments, your going to make my head swell & explode!


Not to say going back to school for teaching credentials after the kids are out of the house is out of the question, however I am the primary care giver; cooking, taking them to many activities, or just being there for them which is why I am rather boxed in as to career and why I stopped my commercial flight training to be around as much as possible (my sister also helps too, being a VERY patient person who happen to have teaching credentials and home schooled my daughter during the first year here so as to help with "issues").

I might also point out that I feel my strength (this is also based on many others who have worked or trained me over the years) is managment/research, in other words learning from others and discerning good information from bad. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not this brilliant mind in science, rather I am a good mamager of information, and I use this information or trust others around me (via delegation of responsibility) to help fill in for my weaknesses (as many here do).

Here is my business Bio (I also have my general bio as well):
Carl Strohmeyer; My Aquarium Experience/Bio

Carl