debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 23, 2017 20:11:08 GMT -5
PLEASE HELP SAVE MY DAUGHTER’S (REMAINING) FISH. I have consulted the fish store that sold us contaminated fish (what good they are!!) and a local saltwater aquarium specialist (not freshwater), and Seachem Laboratories. We have had an established HEALTHY freshwater tank (for YEARS) with several neon tetras, black and white skirt tetras, 2 loaches, 1 cory cat, and a pleco. Water testing confirmed all levels good. We have not introduced any new fish to our tank for a very long time until Saturday, February 4. We locally purchased some lemon tetras, neon tetras, cory cats, and a bristlenose pleco. By Sunday, the new fish began to die and a couple days later 3 of our established neons died. Also, my daughter said our older neon, the first of our older fish to perish, had white, cylindrical things coming out of its eyes (one on both eyes). My daughter also noted that she saw on the "new" dead fish she had seen very visible ich parasites right before they died (were not visible before and I have not seen any visible signs on any of the fish); therefore, we went to the fish store which then sold us Cupramine (we have a 65 gallon tank). We were also advised to raise the temp to 83 degrees and add aquarium salt to the tank which we then did, gradually. Then 2 of our black skirts died (one had popeye in one eye and right before it died it went to the top of the tank for air) and another lemon which also had popeye in one eye died February 12 . At that time only 2 new lemons had survived along with the bristlenose-all others have died and 5 of our older fish had died. I had noticed that the black skirts look a little bloated and one had been swimming in the same spot in circles (but it could have been due to one of the white skirts chasing it, not typical of their behavior). The fish seem to have NO other obvious symptoms until SHORTLY before they die when they appear to be breathing erratically, swimming sluggishly, and/or not remaining upright, although they have appeared to be a little bloated to us. We cannot remember if our older fish started dying after treatments were introduced (Wednesday, Feb. 8) or right before-most of them were after, though, but they were not displaying the typical signs of ich: salty-looking bodies, rubbing or scratching, although their typical swimming patterns were altered shortly before their deaths (they just didn't look right, listless, difficulty swimming, remaining upright). Seachem advised that ich is very visible when it is powerful enough to kill the fish and that “ . . . the initial deaths were more due to stress or possibly a bacterial infection, and the powerful treatments that are being used together have only exacerbated the problem.” Seachem advised to remove the copper from the tank, perform small, frequent water changes to reduce the salt, and bring the temp back to normal (we keep our tank 78-79 degrees). Then stop meds entirely or proceed with Paraguard and then to Kanaplex as needed. We had replaced the carbon filter to remove the copper and had continued water changes. One of our white skirts had turned aggressive (never before all this) but went back to normal after this was done. We then went 3 days without any casualties. Last Wednesday or Thursday (Feb. 15/16) a lemon tetra began hiding and not eating, looked as if it had a red spot on its body, then it got popeye, and now it has to be deceased since we can no longer locate it. Then one of our fancy black skirted tetras had started to contract a red area on its tail fin. The carbon filter was removed and copper was reading less than 0.1 (Sunday evening, Feb 19). We had been doing frequent, small water changes and the temp has been restored to the original 79°. Since I've suspected a bacterial infection, we've administered Kanaplex at the recommended dose. Yesterday morning (Feb. 21) I found my daughter's 6” albino pleco dead, no visible marks or signs, no previous symptoms. He WAS bloated, but I am not sure if that happened before or after he died. I examined him very carefully and he did have what appeared to be a relatively small reddened area near one of his pectoral fins but nothing else. Water tested fine in nitrites, nitrates and ammonia (and has been). Last night my daughter did a 25% water change and added more Kanaplex at a lower dose (not sure how much because I am at work). I have read that Kanaplex is supposed to be more effective when used along with Furan-2. Does anyone have any idea what is going on with our fish and how we can most effectively and safely treat them before it is too late? Please help.
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Post by Carl on Feb 24, 2017 10:21:03 GMT -5
Hi Debbie; sorry for these issues Water parameters can often make issues worse or make certain medications less effective and more deadly. Please post your parameters, maintenance procedures, filtration, and foods usedI definitely agree with most of the advice you received from SeaChem. Heating the water while mixing these meds is not something I would recommend. The only difference is instead of Kanaplex, I would recommend AAP Triple Sulfa with ParaGuard, this is a more effective combination from my experience. Make sure you have a stable pH, a KH of at least 50 ppm, GH of at least 100 ppm as well as a constant supply of mineral Cations. I would suggest the use of an AAP Wonder Shell during treatment as per instructions on the aAP Wonder shell page for your size aquarium and fish kept. After treatment of ParaGuard/Triple sulfa, I would suggest a follow up with a Medicated Wonder Shell. This is all assuming an Ich infestation along with a secondary bacterial infection, however posting pictures might help with a better determination. Please Read these articles: For accurate Ich Treatment information: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.htmlFor procedures to follow that are proven to lower incidence of disease in aquariums: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlwww.fishbeginner.info/home/what-makes-a-healthy-aquarium-or-unhealthy/Some basics about effective sick fish treatments: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2016/09/how-to-treat-sick-fish.htmlCarl
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 24, 2017 13:27:43 GMT -5
Thank you for your prompt reply. We had never had any problems until the new fish were introduced. The tank is a minimum of 7 yrs old, well established with (previously) healthy fish. We had not purchased any new fish in a very long time nor had we have any fish deaths in a very long time. There is no evidence of ich on any of the fish. I am concerned that some of the fish seem bloated (black skirts, some white skirts, one loach). 65 gallon tank, currently housing: 1 juvenile albino pleco, 1 peppered cory, 1 glolight tetra, 1 lemon tetra, 4 white skirts, 2 fancy black skirts, 2 albino loaches; and live plants Parameters, always stable: pH: 6.8; Nitrite: 0; Nitrate: 40; Ammonia: 0; Temp: 79 F Water hardness test kit is in transit. Filter: Eheim Professional 3 canister filter Maintenance: currently water changes at least 15 % weekly, always using a stress formula (API Stress Zyme but now I have Seachem Stress Guard) and chlorine reducing Seachem Neutral Regulator (we have “city” water) Food: Tetra and Omega One flakes, Hikari bloodworms, API algea wafers, Omega One shrimp pellets (I will be adding more quality and variety of food such as frozen type and freeze dried brine shrimp) We have so far used 2 doses of the Kanaplex with the 25% water change, did NOT use the Furan-2 yet (just received it last night). It has been since Tuesday a.m. since any fish have died, but each time we think that it is over, another one perishes. Are the sulfa meds safe for the cory and loaches? Your site does state that combined with the Paraguard it is safer for them. And it is OK to use the triple sulfa now that the Kanaplex has been in the tank?
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 24, 2017 13:40:08 GMT -5
And would we perform 25% water changes immediately prior to administering the sulfa med? We would still need to acquire the medication which could take some days if it needs to be ordered, what should we do meanwhile? Just wait?
Thanks again.
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 24, 2017 15:35:49 GMT -5
Update: just called Seachem, advice: finish the last dose of Kanaplex (no need for water change since med breaks down after 48 hrs.) then stop all treatments and diligently watch fish for any signs of stress before looking at further treatments.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 24, 2017 15:45:33 GMT -5
Carl gave some good advise. I would consider upgrading the food, but wasn't the cause of the issue. I would consider a quarantine tank for your new additions in the future. Prevention is always better than having to treat. Disease Prevention www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 24, 2017 17:30:46 GMT -5
Devon, Unfortunately we have learned the hard way of the importance (and existence) of a quarantine tank. We have one now (9 gallons) that is cycling. We plan to quarantine for at least 3 weeks.
Thanks!
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Post by Carl on Feb 25, 2017 11:53:06 GMT -5
Thank you for your prompt reply. We had never had any problems until the new fish were introduced. The tank is a minimum of 7 yrs old, well established with (previously) healthy fish. We had not purchased any new fish in a very long time nor had we have any fish deaths in a very long time. During my years of professional maintenance and consulting, I have seen many cases where aquariums wer doing very well but one or too sick fish triggered a landslide of problems. While at the same time fish from this same source did not cause any issues other than to the sick fish themselves. What does this mean? Often this means certain parameters, procedures, foods uses, etc were not optmium. It was tjust this that led to many of my studies and the writing of my " Aquarium Disease Prevention" & " Redox"article. I am not saying this is the case here, but in looking at some procedures, it may be in part Was there any Ich on the fish? Do you have current or past pictures? Good. A KH test kit is also important Even a simple 5 in 1 test strip kit such as the AAP/AP 5 in 1 would be helpful Make sure to rince any bio filter media with de-chlorinated water I do see a couple problems here. API StressZyme is a heterotrophic bacterial additive to aid with high waste issues, and not one of the better ones at that (better AAP/SeaChem Stability) AAP/SeaChem StresGuard is a stress and healing product Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html#productsThe biggest problem is the use of Neutral Regulators, which should NEVER be used as these drive out essential mineral Cations and allow high oxidative stress in aquariums QUOTE: "I should also note that I do NOT find the use of Neutral pH regulators helpful for community aquariums ditto Discus Buffer). A more natural balance of carbonate buffers and acid buffers (or a mix both natural or supplemented buffers) is much better for long term keeping of a healthy aquarium chemistry equilibrium. These products often use phosphates which are not a healthy way to neutralize pH/KH, and in fact these products drive out ESSENTIAL calcium and magnesium ions!! As SeaChem states on their website; "softens water by precipitating calcium and magnesium". One danger of long term use is that I found, and this is backed up by the basic science of how these Neutral Regulators work along with the importance of calcium & magnesium for ALL fish, is that fish health IS AFFECTED long term.
If an aquarium keeper finds a neutral regulator the only way to stabilize an aquarium pH/KH, this indicates that there are likely too many acid producing organics such as mulm in canister filters (especially in ceramic media) or under gravel, decor, etc. in the aquarium. Another proof of this unnatural stability is if a Wonder Shell is used, it will produce a "dust" on the bottom that is easily stirred into a cloud in the water (due to phosphates in these products).
The bottom line is the use of Neutral Regulators or Discus Buffer such as by SeaChem or API Proper pH 7 is not a healthy nor natural way to maintain good aquarium chemistry and my years of maintaining many 100's of aquariums has born this out (This is not a knock on either company, in particular SeaChem, as most of their products I would highly recommend)!"From: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlAs Devon noted, this not likely a direct problem, but also not optimum as per energy levels (which leads to unhealthy liver and lower fish immunity and thus makes the fish less resistant to disease). As well, not optimum fiber levels which also lowers fish food metabolism I recommend Clay Neighbor’s AAP Custom Fish food Crumbles Resource www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ParadigmFoods.htmlFurther Reading www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.htmlGood point as to finishing the Kanaplex as per our Medications part 1 article As noted as per the Ich article, it is exactly for these types of fish I recommend the use of Triple Sulfa, and therefore yes it is safe QUOTE (from the article) "With sensitive fish (such as Clown Loaches) it is imperative that you are careful with most ich treatments. Malachite Green is more dangerous to these fish, however if used in a buffered form such as ParaGuard or Medicated Wonder Shells it is less toxic. As noted earlier, you may also use Triple Sulfa at the same time to further buffer the Malachite Green. I and many of my colleagues have used this method considerably for Clown Loaches, Elephant Nose, etc. with good results and this is my preferred method for moderate to severe ich infestations involving scaleless fish such Ghost Knives or Elephant Nose."References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Ich.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html Definitely follow all procedures outlined in this article: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlCarl
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 27, 2017 16:08:54 GMT -5
Carl, good news so far! It has been 6 days since any fish have perished. I am hoping for the best, but I still want to optimize their care.
My daughter said that she noticed ich on the new neons and lemons that we had bought (about 3 days later, not visible initially), but I had not seen any. We do not have any photos.
We only add the Neutral Regulator to the tap water that we are adding to the tank since it is chlorinated. My husband is considering getting the RO water that the fish store sells because they claim that our phosphates are high right from the tap. They sell it at 69 cents per gallon.
In addition to the fish crumbles, what other foods would you recommend for these types of fish? And, what foods do you NOT recommend?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Feb 27, 2017 17:45:01 GMT -5
The Neutral Regulator shouldn't be used. It hard to balance long term and drives out important electrolyte minerals for fish osomoregulation... It will wear on the fish immunity, breaking it down.
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Post by Carl on Feb 27, 2017 18:33:35 GMT -5
Carl, good news so far! It has been 6 days since any fish have perished. I am hoping for the best, but I still want to optimize their care. GREAT! Properly re-mineralized RO water would be a good idea. However even using neutral regulator for water changes still eventually will push most essential mineral Cations out of the water. Long term this can be deadly Even the use of mineral Cation replenishers such as the AP Wonder Shell will often fail to properly work in the presence of this product Freeze Dried Brine Shrimp (in particular the Spirulina enhanced version). Many frozen foods too make a good supplement Definitely stay away from Tetra & Wardleys. As well many so called premium brands are not as good as the marketing This article mentions many fish foods, good & bad, with explanations, I strongly urge its reading! www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quality_Fish_Food.htmlCarl
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 28, 2017 2:35:56 GMT -5
OK, good, so the RO water route is a good idea then, ditching the tap water and Neutral Regulator, right? We should test hardness levels and add Wonder Shells? As far as food, yes, as mentioned earlier, we are looking into the freeze dried brine shrimp and frozen foods. We will discontinue the Tetra brand and never have bought Wardleys. I will be reading the article about fish food. Thank you so much!!
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Feb 28, 2017 2:48:40 GMT -5
I am determined to be a good fish parent!!!
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Post by Carl on Feb 28, 2017 10:44:34 GMT -5
OK, good, so the RO water route is a good idea then, ditching the tap water and Neutral Regulator, right? We should test hardness levels and add Wonder Shells? Yes Keep in mind that the FD Brine shrimp along with your current feeding o FD Blood worms should be supplemental (continued use of the Algae wafers for bottom feeders is a good idea too). Even the Omega is best phased out for the Clay Neighbors AAP Custom Crumbles Resources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ParadigmFoods.htmlCarl
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Mar 2, 2017 1:01:04 GMT -5
Yes, I am placing an order very soon for these products (AAP site). My daughter fed the fish on frozen brine shrimp on Tuesday night (first time), and said that they went nuts over it (unfortunately I missed the action because I was at work by the time the cube thawed out-darn!!). The good news is that she said that the Tetra brand has been gone for a while-she had just been using the container to store other food in. Thank you so much, Carl.
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Mar 2, 2017 2:00:30 GMT -5
Ok, so far I have in my cart: Spirulina FD Brine Shrimp (1.76 oz), Betta Bio-Gold Micro Wafers (.7 oz, for future betta), Paradigm AAP Omnivore (4 oz), Paradigm AAP Herbivore (4 oz) , AAP WONDER SHELLS (small for 9G QT tank and future betta tank, Large for 65G display), and the floating log and leaf for future betta.
Does that sound good (for cory, pleco, loach, tetra, and future betta and shrimp)?
The only thing I am not sure of is the quantity of the food and shells that I should order. Is there a good technique to figure this out or another link with this information?
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Post by Carl on Mar 2, 2017 9:41:34 GMT -5
Ok, so far I have in my cart: Spirulina FD Brine Shrimp (1.76 oz), Betta Bio-Gold Micro Wafers (.7 oz, for future betta), Paradigm AAP Omnivore (4 oz), Paradigm AAP Herbivore (4 oz) , AAP WONDER SHELLS (small for 9G QT tank and future betta tank, Large for 65G display), and the floating log and leaf for future betta. Does that sound good (for cory, pleco, loach, tetra, and future betta and shrimp)? The only thing I am not sure of is the quantity of the food and shells that I should order. Is there a good technique to figure this out or another link with this information? As long as stored in an air tight container and bag with as much air removed as possible, food should last some time. so I would not be too concerned here. As for the Wonder Shells, how many depends how deep a supply you would like to keep. As an example, with your fish kept, I would likely only use a 1/4 to 1/2 does Wonder Shell, so the Large can be broken roughly 2 to 4 ways for your 65 gallon aquarium and each piece would likely need to be replaced every 1-2 weeks Carl
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Mar 3, 2017 14:33:00 GMT -5
OK, Carl, thank you again!
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Mar 7, 2017 18:12:32 GMT -5
Carl, we have situation that we need help with. Can you identify what is on our gold skirt tetra?
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debbie
Junior Member
Posts: 30
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Post by debbie on Mar 7, 2017 18:15:50 GMT -5
I don't know how to add a photo here. It has a bubble on its anal fin near its anal vent that has just reddened. We have not been able to identify this.
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