|
Post by melissa on Nov 19, 2016 19:34:04 GMT -5
To begin I've just found this site and American Aquarium Products and I'm so grateful! I've been a fish-keeper for almost a year now and so far it's been a constant struggle with a lot of downs and not very many ups. We've stuck with it because we've felt sure we're just missing something as it's hard to believe millions of people would come to love this hobby if they were all having the problems we've had but that is another story and not fitting for this thread. We maintain heated, filtered and planted aquariums with regular weekly 25% pwc's with conditioned water and maintain our ammonia and nitrite at 0 and nitrates below 20ppm. I understand the nitrogen cycle.
I have a betta, Jack, our very first fish<3, who I believe has a bacterial infection that began with fin rot about a month ago. I removed him from his tank and kept him in very clean water for a week with no effect. My lfs directed me to treat him with kordon methylene blue as per the bottle's in-tank directions. I did this for the full 5 days and he seemed to respond well. The rot stopped. We waited two more days and then put him back in his 10g planted, heated and filtered home. Two days later the rot returned more aggressively and Jack seemed groggy. I put him back in hospital. Lfs told me bettas can't handle too many meds and to give him a week break with just clean water and an almond leaf. This I did but he continued to worsen and my instincts were telling me letting it keep going on was worse than not re-treating him right away.
I finally found this site which led me to AAP site. Jack is declining faster every day. I can literally see pieces of fin in his bowl and he has developed grey looking spot on his head. He doesn't come say hi when I approach any longer. Sometimes he lays on his side and he can't get down to the bottom of his tank anymore. He just sits quietly behind the heater against the glass. He is still pooping on a regular basis so I am pretty sure he's not constipated but he's definitely got some sbd happening. His breathing is close to normal. He still eats but it takes a lot out of him and he does have labored breathing for a short time after I feed him.
I know he is dying and I've decided to make one last attempt to save him before I euthanize him. I started him on a medicated bath today after reading up about the procedure on AAP. Epsom salt (because he can't sink) aquarium salt, methylene blue, kanaplex and furan 2. The instructions were to use "double the package in-tank dose" of kanaplex and furan 2 for 20-30 mins a day, twice if the fish will tolerate it. I read up on both medications on the site as well, but the instructions are for in-tank dosing and I'm not sure how many days to continue the treatment for? In-tank directions per AAP say 10 days. Am I supposed to do the baths for 10 days then? Longer because he's not living in it? Shorter because it's a double dose? The box says 3 treatments every 48 hours, can be done up to 6 doses. I'm very confused as to how many days I should complete the 30 minute double dose bath for.
Finally, I know this is a last ditch effort here because of how fast the rot is moving each day and how still Jack is and so when do I know it's time to euthanize him because it's not working? The site suggested changing treatment if there was no sign of improvement after 3 days in a sick fish so I should give him three days of baths and if he doesn't seem on the mend, then it's time to let him go?
TY in advance for any assistance or clarification that is offered. I really love this fish and am praying I can pull him through.
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 20, 2016 12:13:09 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Nov 20, 2016 17:38:17 GMT -5
I really appreciate the response:) As I live in Canada, I don't think wonder shells would make it in time for use with Jack. We ran around town yesterday hunting for Seachem Equilibrium/Replenish for the short term but no-one seems to stock it:( We couldn't actually find ANY GH booster of any kind. Our town is honestly, not very fish friendly. I have read most of those articles already and will definitely be reading the one about Vibrio as I didn't read that yet. Thank you for the suggestions. I can't wait till the Jack crisis is over so I can read more about GH and KH/PH. I'm afraid to be hopeful but considering I feel confident we maintain our aquariums cleanliness and parameters well and still constantly have ill fish that don't seem to have any longevity with us, I'm really hopeful that mineral cations could finally be the answer! I did get a breeder box to help eliminate stress for the baths, as he was much more difficult to catch today. He is weak and gets winded easily and I feel like today was more stress than it was beneficial. I'm going to try once more tomorrow with the box and see if it makes it easier on him. If not I will do the in tank treatment you suggested. I understand you're very busy but I'd really love to learn from this so I can make better treatment decisions in a more timely manner in future. I did read about your view on salt in an aquarium so I understand why you didn't suggest that for the in-tank treatment if I have to go that way tomorrow but why no Kanaplex? I'm curious if you left it out due to his improvement the week we did in-tank methylene blue as you stated that was "good info" or if there was another reason altogether? I use a Rubbermaid hospital tank with a mini filter in it. It's not the best at maintaining a cycle as it's too small but Jack can't handle much current in his state and I thought it was the better choice for him. I've just been super careful about water changes and we use Prime as our conditioner just to be safe. If it's due to the beneficial bacteria being killed off that is not an issue in this case. Ty again for responding:)
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Nov 21, 2016 8:36:28 GMT -5
Greetings and welcome to the best place on the internet for help and information. I am sorry to hear that Jack is having a hard time getting through this illness. I went through this with my Neon tetras some time back and every time they where on the road to recovery they would get sick again. After loosing all of them it began to show up on my Cory Cats. I move the Cory Cats to a temp tank by themselves as I and broke down the main tank to clean and sterilize it with bleach and water. I also boiled my drift wood and put my plants in a plant dip. There had to be something in the tank causing the fin rot I figured. After doing this drastic measure and the Cory Cats where on their road to recovery, I put them back into the main tank and they continued to get better with no returning signs of the problem reoccurring. I ended up loosing all of my Neon Tetras and five of my Cory Cats and two of the seven cats left actually stopped growing but the fin rot did not come back. I believe there was something inside of the tank environment I was missing that was the root of all my problems because when they where in the hospital tank getting treated and recovering very well, after putting them back into the main tank they got sick again. If you loose Jack please don't give up on the Aquatic hobby. I read and reread the articles that Carl has provided as a result of over 35 years in the professional business of caring for other peoples Aquariums. I joined Everything Aquatic in January of this year and have been able to advance my skills of keeping a healthy aquatic environment for my fish ten fold because of Carl's experience and love of helping people like you and I in this hobby.
Breaking down an established tank environment is a last ditch effort when all else fails so I don't recommend it until you feel that you have exhausted every available treatment.
In all of the work we put into our Aquariums to provide a natural healthy environment for our fish the unforeseen can happen so continue to fight the fight of Aquatic fish keeping and you will continue to learn and enjoy this wonderful hobby.
Richard
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 21, 2016 12:01:23 GMT -5
I really appreciate the response:) As I live in Canada, I don't think wonder shells would make it in time for use with Jack. We ran around town yesterday hunting for Seachem Equilibrium/Replenish for the short term but no-one seems to stock it:( We couldn't actually find ANY GH booster of any kind. Our town is honestly, not very fish friendly. I have read most of those articles already and will definitely be reading the one about Vibrio as I didn't read that yet. Thank you for the suggestions. I can't wait till the Jack crisis is over so I can read more about GH and KH/PH. I'm afraid to be hopeful but considering I feel confident we maintain our aquariums cleanliness and parameters well and still constantly have ill fish that don't seem to have any longevity with us, I'm really hopeful that mineral cations could finally be the answer! Even if you cannot get these for now, they are a useful product to always have on hand as per the Aquarium Disease Prevention Article (Meds to have on hand section) This always makes it easier, as while I have generally had good success with Fish Baths, there is no denying that these can also be very stressful, so doing anything to lower the stress is a good idea. Adding any temporary reducer such as AAP/SeaChem Prime immediately following the bath can help too. Based on your results, and my own experience, I felt the Med. Wonder Shell with Furan 2 was a better way to go in tank. In the bath I would still combine these. I agree with this reasoning as long as ammonia/nitrites stay at .5 ppm or less. Prime is a good product to use Carl
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 21, 2016 13:28:07 GMT -5
Some good advice Carl and Richard gave. One point I wanted to stress. Temperature is a big stressor, so make sure your bath water is staying warm. If the bath water cools down and the fish goes back and forth from the display tank to hospital, it could hurt him. I take my bath container and place it in the aquarium to keep the temp. Just wedge it between something and the rim of the tank and it will stay.
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Nov 21, 2016 23:38:29 GMT -5
Thank you all for your time:) @richard - Your story is encouraging. I keep telling myself I'm doing my best but it's hard not to begin feeling defeated when nothing you do changes the overall outcome and everything you read comes back to "poor husbandry". Luckily, Jack was a really super awesome first fish. He practically jumped out of his bowl in the store at me when I first saw him. He's playful and beautiful and tame and my bud. We also had white cloud minnows who were little mini jets in the tank! I have one of 12 left now that I named Trooper because he managed to survive while his 11 mates died. I had 3 otocinclus (we intended on 6 more in a week or so but that's when it became clear that we didn't have a safe environment for fish and we didn't get anymore. They perished as well. We had the worst kind of cyanobacteria outbreak that I couldn't solve in time because it's not actually algae:p It's funny how it's tough to get the right answer if you don't have the right question to begin with. It's nice to know other people have struggled for a long while before figuring out what was wrong but eventually did. I love Jack far too much to give up. Even if I lose him I will definitely not quit because he taught me that aquatic critters are fun and playful and the aquarium itself is calming. I'm in love with this hobby even though I've not had much success yet. Thank you for sharing. @carl - I've been reading as many articles as I've had time for and I am learning so much that is almost literally not mentioned elsewhere and when it is, it's quickly dismissed by someone else. I think I've learned more this week than I have in months. I LOVE that you link outside sources to further explain and back up your thoughts and opinions. I know ALL about uneducated arrogant opinions, let me tell you! I woke this morning and Jack was even weaker. He didn't even right himself when I said hello so I switched to the Furan 2 in-tank. I really don't think I took enough correct action soon enough to save him. He mustered strength to eat again today though, so I'm gonna keep at this in-tank treatment until he refuses meals and/or stops going to the washroom, or miraculously recovers. Thanks to your detailed articles I feel a lot more confident that I am doing everything I can for him. I feel like you've given me a great chance at finally "fixing" my aquarium woes so I can provide future fish a high quality environment. I've got more reading to do before I set to work again:P devonjohnsgard - I'll admit I did not realize how quickly that container would cool during his first bath:( I did put a thermometer in there and as soon as I realized it was dropping I held the container in his hospital water for the rest of the duration time. After that I rigged up a little hanger system on his hospital for the bath. The container I'm using had too wide a rim for my clips, I couldn't keep it stable. I did correct this the second day and I won't make that mistake again. It was an important thing to point out though and it always seems it's the things experienced people do by habit and forget to mention that can really mess with a newbie:P I will re-post with my final outcome regarding Jack. Thank you guys for the non-judgmental assistance. I was skeptical to post thinking I'd get the usual "you must have dirty water with ammonia in it" response. I'm so happy to have found this place/you all. Melissa
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 22, 2016 13:17:04 GMT -5
Wonderful update. I'm glad you feel on track and I think we can all agree Carl's article have really help cut our learning curve in this hobby!
Great he tried to eat, that's a good sign. Keep it up!
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Nov 23, 2016 15:20:23 GMT -5
I thought of one more thing regarding Jack's illness. A few months ago this stuff began appearing on my filter output. It is sticky/tacky and grainy and thick in texture. It has to be scrubbed off, if can't simply be wiped away and it smells VERY bitter. I've done my best to identify it but so far can not. I believe this may be what caused Jack's illness. I've posted on quite a few forums trying to find what it is. No-one can identify it for me but 3 people have said it grows in their tanks as well but doesn't cause any problems with their fish, they just scrub it off during water changes. I'm not convinced it's "nothing to worry about" as I have had a lot of issues this year but I managed to keep Jack healthy and happy until this stuff showed up. I did a good filter cleaning the first week Jack was out of his tank including the inside of the hoses for his filter. Prior to that it was only growing on this rubber connector for the output hose. After the cleaning it spread to the other one as well. I'd really like to know for sure that it isn't dangerous. TY
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 23, 2016 17:55:42 GMT -5
I thought of one more thing regarding Jack's illness. A few months ago this stuff began appearing on my filter output. It is sticky/tacky and grainy and thick in texture. It has to be scrubbed off, if can't simply be wiped away and it smells VERY bitter. I've done my best to identify it but so far can not. I believe this may be what caused Jack's illness. I've posted on quite a few forums trying to find what it is. No-one can identify it for me but 3 people have said it grows in their tanks as well but doesn't cause any problems with their fish, they just scrub it off during water changes. I'm not convinced it's "nothing to worry about" as I have had a lot of issues this year but I managed to keep Jack healthy and happy until this stuff showed up. I did a good filter cleaning the first week Jack was out of his tank including the inside of the hoses for his filter. Prior to that it was only growing on this rubber connector for the output hose. After the cleaning it spread to the other one as well. I'd really like to know for sure that it isn't dangerous. TY View AttachmentInteresting. Seems like a cyanobacteria... I wouldn't think it's the cause of the issue, but seems like a symptom of what might be wearing on the fishes immunity, which causes the illness. You don't see this in tanks with sterilizers, might be a good option. Erythromycin might be used, if your tanks filter can take it. Here's more information: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/07/blue-green-algae-in-aquariums.html
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Nov 23, 2016 17:56:56 GMT -5
I have never seen this before... Maybe Carl has seen this and can identify it and or it's cause.
Richard
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 23, 2016 20:11:07 GMT -5
Interesting. Seems like a cyanobacteria... I wouldn't think it's the cause of the issue, but seems like a symptom of what might be wearing on the fishes immunity, which causes the illness. You don't see this in tanks with sterilizers, might be a good option. Erythromycin might be used, if your tanks filter can take it. Here's more information: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/07/blue-green-algae-in-aquariums.htmlIt looks like a form of cyanobacteria or some other form of similar bacteria. The part that does not fit is that Cyanobacteria generally wipes of very readily Also the common cynobacteria seen in aquariums is generally not harmful to fish that I know of. This said, there are blue-green algaes (which are not algae, rather bacteria) that can release toxins Some questions: Does this smell: *swampy *oily or petroleum *sewage *rotten vegetation *or musty? Your lighting type and schedule? Any iron additives? Is this piece in the picture plastic (I cannot tell)? Water temperature? Carl
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Nov 25, 2016 15:46:10 GMT -5
Sorry for the late reply. It's been busy:/ Still doing the in-tank treatment on Jack. Tomorrow is day 7 however and he's not getting better. Is there thread or article on euthanasia? How and when? To be clear. The pics of cyano (i think) are not from Jack's tank. They are from our 26g where all the problems started. I just thought I should include them because you're all saying that the yellow stuff (in Jack's 10g) could be cyano and so IF it transferred and is the same thing, this is how it started. That yellow stuff has never appeared in the 26g and to date that nasty green stuff that wiped out my minnows and otos has not shown up in Jack's 10g. @ devonjohnsgard - that's interesting. I lost most of my fish in the 26g tank to cyanobacteria (or what I thought was cyanobacteria) but it didn't look like that. It wiped out 15 fish in about a month. I will add a photo. I use separate hoses and clean buckets for each tank but I do use the same dirty bucket, so maybe I transferred it somehow and it's appearing differently? @carl - I can't smell that yellow stuff until I remove it from the aquarium for cleaning. Then it's VERY bitter, maybe even rancid? The water itself has an off smell to me as well...swampy might fit. I call it "fishy". It smells like a lake or pond. Jack's 10g was just using a stock light and low light plants. The light is on a timer from 10am to 5pm. It's in our living room which always has the blinds down and never sees natural light. We use a pre-mixed PMDD mixture which doesn't contain iron. I asked the supplier we got it from what was in it and he said it's the original pmdd mix. That piece is flexible rubber. The tank is kept at 78*F. I do not have any fish in either of the planted aquariums. I ripped the plants out of my other betta's tank. I need to learn what's going wrong before I get anymore fish. They are both cycled but I don't care if I have to start over. I just want a clean safe environment so I can get more fish. We did buy erthromycin and have it but I haven't used it yet. I think it's pointless to kill it if I don't know what caused it as it'll just come back, I think? I was saving it till I figure out what's wrong. So as for fish health and nitrogen cycle I can do anything to the tanks right now as there are no lives at stake. The first 2 pics are of the large 26g where the cyano started. The 3rd is Jack's tank as it was when I pulled him out because the fin rot started. Ty.
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 25, 2016 17:53:00 GMT -5
Its still sounding like Cyano... euthanasia... Carl actually doesn't address this topic as there's a handful of methods and it's opinion based. It really depends on how you can handle it. There's the clove oil method. I know Carl's method is not for most. A quick hit, so the fish goes quickly. I can describe this more in detail if you like, but I'll save details, just in case. He does have this information. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#old_age
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Nov 26, 2016 10:12:16 GMT -5
That is how we've been putting down our fish to date. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss an article with opinions on the various methods people use. A smack on the head seems the most humane to me as long as you don't miss. I just haven't been fond of the thrashing and panic from tank to death.
I feel like this isn't the specific thread to discuss the cyano past whether it could or couldn't have caused the illnesses in my fish. I'll re-post a new thread if I run into anymore questions after I've read what I can find.
Ty
|
|
|
Post by Carl on Nov 26, 2016 13:27:25 GMT -5
@ devonjohnsgard - that's interesting. I lost most of my fish in the 26g tank to cyanobacteria (or what I thought was cyanobacteria) but it didn't look like that. It wiped out 15 fish in about a month. I will add a photo. I use separate hoses and clean buckets for each tank but I do use the same dirty bucket, so maybe I transferred it somehow and it's appearing differently? I do not have much evidence that cyanobacteria can or has taken out an aquarium. I have heard this before, but it has all been anecdotal without everything else considered. In my own experience, I have not observed this. An example of what I mean by anecdotal is many have blamed Melafix for killing their Bettas, but upon examining closer it is one of two likely scenarios such as it was likely they simply treated Melefix for a condition it was not meant for, kinda like taking aspirin for a brain tumor and then blaming the aspirin for the persons death. Reference: www.fish-as-pets.com/2008/12/melafix-dangers-labyrinth-fish.htmlThe above said, I still would not write it off as a possibility as it has not been dis-proven either The rancid smell is concerning as this could indicate iron bacteria, but I have never witnessed it in an aquarium Further Reading: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_bacteriaThe smell of the water is relatively normal, your aquarium should smell fishy and like a lake or pond, not like a swimming pool or tap water The reason I asked about lighting is that cyanobacteria can become dominant in aquariums that receive too much yellow light spectrums in proportion to others. So knowing your brand and its spectrum could be helpful in ruling out the bacteria This said, your pictures here do not look like cyanobacteria, rather hair algae References: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/04/aquarium-algae.htmlwww.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/07/blue-green-algae-in-aquariums.htmlThis is a 50/50 question, as we may never know for sure but for you taking your pipe to a lab for testing. If the Betta is all that is in there, and you can keep the ammonia/nitrite near 0, at this point I am of the opinion that what have you got to lose? Carl
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Nov 26, 2016 14:23:41 GMT -5
That is how we've been putting down our fish to date. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss an article with opinions on the various methods people use. A smack on the head seems the most humane to me as long as you don't miss. I just haven't been fond of the thrashing and panic from tank to death. I feel like this isn't the specific thread to discuss the cyano past whether it could or couldn't have caused the illnesses in my fish. I'll re-post a new thread if I run into anymore questions after I've read what I can find. Ty Ok. Yes it's opinion based... Carl suggests a strong bag. Place the fish with a little water in the bag and hit hard against the wall. I know this is hard and not for everyone.
|
|
|
Post by childofiam on Dec 2, 2016 11:44:00 GMT -5
Melissa, I would like to encourage you to start a Tank Blog with pictures. The great thing is that in a year you can go back to see your progress in this hobby and see how far you have grown. I was looking at my Tank Blog the other day and wow have I grown in knowledge. I look back and realize that I really didn't know much back then and can see how much of a positive influence Carl and Devon has had on me. I read and reread the article's and get new info every time. My wife woke up at five this morning to find me reading about bacteria from The Nitrogen Cycle Article. This is a very important part of the hobby that we need to understand... The Unseen things Happening inside of our Aquarium and how they effect our fish and plants. This kind of information is the determining factor of one enjoying his/her Aquarium or dreading what will happen next.
Richard
|
|
|
Post by devonjohnsgard on Dec 2, 2016 13:05:12 GMT -5
Great advice. Richard (and myself) is a great example how fast forward your learning can be in this hobby if you follow Carl's advice. Easy access to college/professional level information.
|
|
|
Post by melissa on Dec 2, 2016 14:07:41 GMT -5
Hi guys
I had to put Jack down the other day. Hardest thing I've had to do for a while. I loved my little man. I thought he might be perking up a bit for a couple of days but maybe I just really wanted him to. The other day I woke to find that he couldn't hold himself at the top of the water anymore and was really breathing hard. I tried everything I could but he just wasn't strong enough to beat it and I couldn't let him suffer anymore. When we began reading about aquariums and the hobby, I didn't realize how attached I would get to my little aquatic friends. I had to take a couple days to just be sad.
As I stated before I'm only a year in and it took a long time to find this site and AAP. I haven't felt this much support from any site or forum since the beginning. I also haven't found a place until here where I've felt the info and opinions received were backed by some facts rather than "my fish are alive so I know what I'm talking about". Being alive doesn't mean healthy and happy which is very important to me. I take the responsibility of fish pets just as seriously as any other pet and the "it's just a fish" attitude really bothers me. I just really can't express my gratitude for your help and now encouragement. Thank you all so very much.
I do have a fish diary but it's old school:P A notebook and pen. I have a lot of pics on my computer as well although I'll be honest and say they are not organized. When we had the big fish apocalypse I started it. I did tests on my tank every day for a few weeks to "see what I could see". A lot of forums don't give the respect to GH/KH as I think they should. I've thought mine was less than ideal for some time but most people have just said it's no big deal and not a priority. I had a hard time finding real info on it till now. I'd never even heard of "Redox" until AAP. I really believe factors are a definitely contributing to my fish getting sick so much. Not the ONLY reason but my water is on the very low end of the scale GH/KH and my PH is fairly high for those low numbers and not very stable. I think maybe my fish are always under stress and so that makes it easy for the bad stuff to get a hold on them. Anyway, forgive me but are there sites for blogs or you all just keep a personal diary like me except on your computer?
I've been reading a lot and I feel like I have a new plan to move forward with and I feel more optimistic than I have for months. I'm determined to get this figured out because no matter the frustration and heartache and endless expense this last year I know this is for me and that I will take great pleasure from this hobby once I stop killing things from inexperience. As Richard mentioned, I'm in that place right now of "dreading what will happen next". I'm looking forward to moving away from that place:P Maybe one day I'll even be able to help someone instead of always being on the receiving end;) That would make me really happy, lol.
Melissa
|
|