tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29 
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Post by tctho on Jul 24, 2016 4:26:53 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2016 10:23:16 GMT -5
Welcome to Everything Aquatic! Before I can really answer your question, I need to know your aquarium parameters, filtration, and chemistry maintenance methods. The reason is in my decades of experience, often all the medication in the world will not help if water conditions are poor. Even if water conditions are good, but not optimum, this still can make a difference. These nodules are not "Ich" rather appear to be more of a saprolegnia growing on lesions Please Read in full: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.htmlAlso for Saprolegnia: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html#fungusCarl |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 24, 2016 13:01:15 GMT -5
Hi Carl, Yes, i think so, These nodules of saprolegnia. Do you remember, i asked you this disease before. After that I bought new big tank 1.3 Meters of length. The aquarium parameters are good. I have a big filter tank. The disease is not serious as before. But it's not treated thoroughly. THe pics i sent above were in the serious time. Now they are only around 5 small spots. I did treat for 15 days to Prevent Lifecycle of sapro. It was gone for around 2 weeks. Now they come back with 5 small spots.   I researched your articles many times. Thank for useful info. After use many medications, i find out that Malachite green and Formalin is the best remedy for this disease. But even that The disease still come back. And As you know these medications are not good for human, so i really do not like to use them for long time. Since today I do change 25% water every days. An expert tell me that can help. Do you have other suggestion? By the way, In my local, Methylen blue is easiest to find. Do you think Methylen Blue can be used alternative to Malachite green? please suggest me dose of it. My fish is big, so i can't do either Fish dip or bath or swab. Because catching it need anaesthetic |
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2016 14:51:56 GMT -5
I would agree that catching this fish would d more harm,
Make sure there is no organic mulm accumulating in this filter as this is quite common with large wet/dry filters along with large canister filters.
I would also consider switching to a better filter media than just these pads, such as Volcanic Rock
Adding a true level one capable UV Sterilizer will help check the spread in the water column
Please also provide water parameters and chemistry maintenance procedures too.
Carl
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Post by Carl on Jul 24, 2016 15:19:11 GMT -5
After use many medications, i find out that Malachite green and Formalin is the best remedy for this disease. But even that The disease still come back. And As you know these medications are not good for human, so i really do not like to use them for long time. Do you have other suggestion? By the way, In my local, Methylen blue is easiest to find. Do you think Methylen Blue can be used alternative to Malachite green? please suggest me dose of it. My fish is big, so i can't do either Fish dip or bath or swab. Because catching it need anaesthetic Also, Methylene Blue, while it can be used for Saprolegnia, it is not a replacement for Malachite Green and it is best used as part of another treatment or in a bath or hospital tank. Formalin is a questionable treatment for Saprolegnia based on my use. From my article about Saprolegnia: "ParaGuard & AAP Quick Cure both also contain Malachite Green along with Formalin. While Formalin is considered by some to be a useful treatment for Saprolegnia, my experience has shown otherwise. However both these products can and do work, if only for the MG they contain."Assuming the cause is removed (& water parameters are optimial), which I honestly have my doubts based on your battle here, your best bet will be a Malachite Green based treatment such as Medicated Wonder Shells (best since these contain MB and Acriflavin too) or maybe ParaGuard, Another good alternative is Maracyn Oxy Resources: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#paraguardwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.htmlwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/FritzMardelKordon.html#maracynoxyCarl |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 24, 2016 23:54:51 GMT -5
Frankly i use a mixed of MG-formalin, that work better than separated MG and Formalin.
I still have one item of your Medicated Wonder Shells. I just want to save it for the last for prevention after treat it all.
Methylen Blue is easy to buy in Dug store.
So please advise me dose of Methylene Blue. how many ppm should I use? should I add it every day?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 25, 2016 11:33:13 GMT -5
Id say you need level 1 UVC, if the problem keeps coming back.
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Post by Carl on Jul 25, 2016 11:36:26 GMT -5
Frankly i use a mixed of MG-formalin, that work better than separated MG and Formalin. I still have one item of your Medicated Wonder Shells. I just want to save it for the last for prevention after treat it all. Methylen Blue is easy to buy in Dug store. So please advise me dose of Methylene Blue. how many ppm should I use? should I add it every day? I cannot help you if you not answer the questions or read what I am saying. We need to find out the why of this problem so that it does not return as per parameters, chemistry maintenance methods, organic mulm buildup, and use of UVC sterilizers. The facts are Saprolegnia does not come back in an aquarium that is maintained optimally AS I noted, products that combine MG-formalin are not necessarily the most effective and Methylne Blue by itself may not be all that effective and as well may be detrimental to your bio filter is used at therapeutic levels by itself Carl |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 25, 2016 21:56:50 GMT -5
UVC, I bought and run it for 2 months, now I'm just try to sell it, because it do not help much in this case.
I know Saprolegnia is not hard to treat in theory, and maybe for other fish, and if have a good parametters, chemistry ...etc it will not comeback. That is theory.
BUt in this case, it's very hard. Not just happen with me, many many other people here get stuck with this disease on Arowana. It easy to come back only with arowana. Other fish is very ok, no disease, no any problem with them but arowana.
"I cannot help you if you not answer the questions "
"consider switching to a better filter media than just these pads, such as Volcanic Rock"
In the pictures, you can see i have Volcanic Rock. That is 60kg of Volcanic Rock.
Parameters are good, as i said, i have a tool to check all paramters, all are in good boundary.
I think Parameters is not my problem, because all fishes in tank are very good, eat very much, healthy. Just arowana have saprolegnia. Even that, arowana seem to be very healthy, eat much.
And i also used "seachem replenish" to replenish elevant minerals for months. Unlucky i must say it's not help in this case.
"The facts are Saprolegnia does not come back in an aquarium that is maintained optimally"
I agree with you. water parameters are very good. But Just one thing i must confess if i have a tank with 5 metters of length, it will be better.
But that is impossible, i can't have it.
Also I said i read your articles many times, and i can't use some medications like ParaGuard & AAP Quick Cure... because they are not available here.
I just ask your help because you are an expert.
So If It's possible, Please give me an detailed method to treat with easy to find Remedy, with detailed roadmap, that would be helpful with me. Please Do not just give me articles sir.
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 25, 2016 22:11:22 GMT -5
Id say you need level 1 UVC, if the problem keeps coming back. I had it, and it do not help much. This is big tank with 600l, with bare bottom, but pathogens still have many place to take shelters I think. Kill pathgens thoroughly with UVC is just in theory. |
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Post by Carl on Jul 26, 2016 8:57:06 GMT -5
Id say you need level 1 UVC, if the problem keeps coming back. I had it, and it do not help much. This is big tank with 600l, with bare bottom, but pathogens still have many place to take shelters I think. Kill pathgens thoroughly with UVC is just in theory. What UV did you have?? Most sold nowadays are NOT level one capable, most are just clarifiers This is NOT theory, if a true level one UV Sterilizer is used I have 1000s of tests to prove this. I cannot help you if you will not help me by providing what I ask in parameters and chemistry maintenance methods The facts are this is a disease of opportunity and removing these opportunities is more than half the battle, NOT just throwing in medications As for medications, I cannot wave a magic wand and tell you something will work that I have no evidence or practical experience that it will. This would be dishonest. So here is the road map (1) Remove all causes for Saprolegnia, including optimum water parameters, chemistry maintenance procedures, improved filtration, removal of organic mulm, etc. (2) Add a true level one capable UV Sterilizer (3) Treat with known medications that will work Not one of these by themselves will beat this (including the UV), you need to follow all three Carl |
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Post by Carl on Jul 26, 2016 10:38:32 GMT -5
In looking at past posts, I found this:  While I have not used this "brand" it looks a lot like the Jebaeo which does not use HO low pressure UV lamps, has poor dwell time; in other words is just a UV clarifier. However even a poor UV is connected also makes a difference. For one such as this, getting the highest wattage such as 36 watts and running very slow (about 45 liters per hour MAY get you to level one sterilization for your aquarium) Carl |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 26, 2016 10:49:16 GMT -5
Id say you need level 1 UVC, if the problem keeps coming back. I had it, and it do not help much. This is big tank with 600l, with bare bottom, but pathogens still have many place to take shelters I think. Kill pathgens thoroughly with UVC is just in theory. Wrong... and you're missing the point that true level 1 sterilization will help keep immunity boosted for help fight against these issues. |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 26, 2016 13:08:01 GMT -5
I had it, and it do not help much. This is big tank with 600l, with bare bottom, but pathogens still have many place to take shelters I think. Kill pathgens thoroughly with UVC is just in theory. Wrong... and you're missing the point that true level 1 sterilization will help keep immunity boosted for help fight against these issues. I did not refuse that UVC keep immunity boosted, I know it can kill bacterials. But in my experience, in this case, i did not help much. That made me think pathogens here, somehow they hide in many places, that can't be shown off in front UVC, thus, of course, they will not be killed, even with 1 level UVC. another point, almost medications instruct to turn off UVC in treatment. @carl, I'm not sure if this is poor UVC, but many people here using it, so i buy. It's hard to check if it can kill bacteria or not. Thank for this roadmap. It's exactly what i've done for long time, try to keep all things are the best but the case is only improved. I think the main reasons are: + pathogens here, and no way to remove them thoroughly. + some time the fish touch the side of the tank. And maybe that is the way pathogens come to its body. So i think the best way is have a very very large tank. But that is impossible for me. So i think another way, If it come back, try to treat it for long term, that can help to kill all pathogens because they have Lifecycle. Do you think so? |
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Post by Carl on Jul 26, 2016 16:12:39 GMT -5
You need to break the life-cycle by looking for anything that would be harboring the pathogen. This includes the filter Finding the root cause is the most important of the three steps I pointed out, more even than the medication based on my experience. This is not to say the medication is not important, as it is and must be used to at least eradicate it on the fish. Back to the use of UVC, this only should be shut off for certain light sensitive treatments such as many antibiotics. However as per my UV Sterilization article, Malachite Green, Acriflavin, & most other chemical treatments are not that affected by UVC (Maracyn Oxy is though) It is also noteworthy that if your Saprolegnia is recurring on the fish, it is thus in the water column where a TRUE UV Sterilizer set up with the proper flow and turn over rate should be able to stop or severely slow it down. Also other people using a certain UV does not make it effective and since this one looks a lot like the Jebao UV, I would strongly question its effectiveness. I did some investigating and the website your picture comes from has another UV Sterilizer that while not a high dwell time UV, I know that it at least uses a HO low pressure UV bulb (the JBL) www.sinhcanhviet.com/I also urge your to read the article about UV Sterilization (google has a translator to make it easier too) www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumUVSterilization.htmlCarl |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 27, 2016 10:12:19 GMT -5
A tank have many places such as chink, line, Volcanic Rock... Yes, i know i should look all.
But that is not easy to break it. I did all. clear all, i also remove all filter media, transfer fish to new tank... etc.
Actually saying is easier than doing.
In my practical experience, When turn on UV, the medication MG have less effect than when turning off.
I read this article "UV Sterilization" before. I know a UV have a optimal Flow Rate, but my Pump can't change rate AND i also do not know what extract flow rate of the pump.
maybe i will buy new bare UV bulb and put it in filter tank.
So you think there is no other way than UV?
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Post by Carl on Jul 27, 2016 17:48:05 GMT -5
So you think there is no other way than UV? No, in fact the UV is the least important of the three steps, but using a level one capable UV is still helpful in breaking your cycle. A UV is often best matched to the flow rate of your pump as per the article. So in other words, if you pump has a certain flow rate per hours, you purchase a UV that can perform level one sterilization at this given flow rate. As well flow pattern and of course pre-filtration are extremely important too as per the article. If you have a poor pattern the UV will have less opportunity to sterilizer the water column. If no pre-filtration is performed (in other words just a pump connected to a Sterilizer), if the best UV will be considerably less effective due to water turbidity Carl |
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tctho
Junior Member
Posts: 29
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Post by tctho on Jul 28, 2016 4:37:33 GMT -5
By the way, do you think Volcanic Rock absord medications like MG, MB? I see after some hours putting these meds into tank, the color is faded.
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Post by Carl on Jul 28, 2016 8:34:31 GMT -5
By the way, do you think Volcanic Rock absord medications like MG, MB? I see after some hours putting these meds into tank, the color is faded. Everything absorbs Malachite Green, even aquarium silicone! This is one reason why MG never remains long in the water Just some things absorb more than others. The more "Stuff" in your aquarium, the quicker the MG gets absorbed. You simply need to account for this (which admittedly can be difficult without over dosing initially) This is where the Medicated Wonder Shell is an excellent way to slowly introduce MG and other ingredients. While not as strong initially as most MG containing products, it maintains its therapeutic levels better over time. Using this product a day after a stronger treatment can be a way to boost thearpeutic levels Carl |
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Post by childofiam on Aug 12, 2016 10:49:37 GMT -5
Great pictures....
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