New betta- finrot or fin nipping?

[Jenee']

Hello all-

I got a new betta last Saturday through mail order.  He is a beautiful boy.  I woke up this morning to a fish who doesn't look at all like he did yesterday.  His tail is ragged and it is missing a chunk.  I'm not sure if it is damage by something in his tank, fin nipping, or fin rot. He is acting normal and eating fine.

The details....He has live plants-hornwort and java moss, so no rough plastic plants.  There is a tank decoration that he likes to sleep in, but it isn't rough anywhere that I can tell. I have flourite with a little bit of smooth black gravel top layer.  I have a mini sponge filter I bought from Carl at American Aquarium Products, (love to support you, Carl!)  a medicine bottle with matrix in it, and a heater.  He is a very active little guy and loves to squeeze behind the filter and heater.  He also likes to sleep on the ridge between the sponge and the bottom of the filter.  He is constantly patrolling and exploring.  The tank is new, so I have been testing daily.  The PH is high in my area, so I have 1/2 of a wonder shell and an Indian Almond leaf in the tank. (I have more coming.) The PH has been running 8.0, but today was 8.2.  The nitrite and nitrates are zero, and the Ammonia is between 0 and 0.25. I have been changing 50% of the water every other day to keep it down until the bacteria is balanced.  Maybe I need to do it daily?  I use Prime for the conditioner.  
When I got him, I acclimated him to the temp, then put him into a methylene blue bath for 20 minutes before putting him in the tank.  I dissolved about a 1/2 tsp of aquarium salt and added it to the tank. He did arrive with his dorsal fin white on the tips and curled over, and he had a white scrape on his forehead.  The scrape seems to be healing nicely without any fungus or anything.  It is no longer white and blends in.  You can see his white edged dorsal in the 3rd and 6th photo below.

I'm new to the fish world, and I'm slowly learning-doing lots of reading and researching.  I had a betta for 6 months that I just lost, and never figured out what was wrong.  I tried several things, but lost the battle.  He was my buddy and company while healing from a spinal fusion surgery.  I was so sick that I lost him, and I miss him.  I'm trying to do the right thing this time, so I was so devastated to wake up and see my new guy, Zen, with a ragged tail...   Can fin rot come on so fast?  Or could the stress of shipping have just brought it on?  His fins were completely normal yesterday, or so I thought.  And I have been hyper-vigilant looking for changes and spots, fungus, etc., after losing Max.   I have a few pics -the first one is from 2 days ago, then some from this morning, and one of his tank environment. I rotated them before uploading, but they still ended up not rotated, but I think you can still see.  It is from a cell phone, so not the best quality. And he wouldn't hold still!

I'm sure thankful for this forum!

Jenee'

 

  

[Carl]

Hi Jenee;

Have you tested your pH of both your aquarium and new water used for the aquarium?

The useof Pillow/Frog Moss can naturally lower your pH and is one method to lower this.
As well the use of AAP/SeeChem Acid buffer is a way to lower as well in a more specific way.

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/FrogMoss.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#acid

While pH is not something I want to encourage you to "chase", I prefer setting a KH number and shooting for this, this is a higher pH number than I would usually keep a Betta

Further Reading:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

I am not sure why the fins should get this way in such a short amount of time, especially without other fish or sharp objects present. In other words this is not normal. Because of this, I am rather cautious as to suggesting you dump meds into your aquarium or even perform a fish bath at this time. I would definitely keep an eye on him.
There however is one possibility that comes to mind since you noted the fish was purchased via mail order; it is possible that the fish water the fish was in was very high in ammonia while the pH was quite low. This is very common for shipped fish, especially if nothing was done to counter this or the fish was in the bag too long.
Further Reading:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/09/fish-shipping.html

You are definitely only using a small amount of Wonder Shell for this size tank, which is best for a new fish. Your water change shedule appears to be working just fine as per ammonia, nitrites, nitrates

Another product that may be helpful is AAP/SeaChem StressGuard

Product Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard

Carl

[Jenee']

I would bet that the water he arrived in was pretty high in ammonia. He was mailed Priority on Wednesday, but I didn't get him until Saturday. Too long in a little bag.... I feel so sorry for these guys making that trip in the mail. He did arrive with IAL in the bag and he was very active, never was lethargic nor lost color. And begging for food. It is so hard not to overfeed him, as small as the pellets are. (I have the Sanyu pellets you sell.) I did test the water from the faucet for reference before he arrived, and the PH is also 8.0, using the high PH test in the master freshwater test kit. We have well water from a very small community water system here is Sisters, Oregon.

I have some frog moss in my cart, and a GH and KH kit. I think I will add the buffer. I want to get them ordered as soon as I'm able. I was wondering how to keep PH down if I do weekly partial water changes, once the tank is fully cycled. Wouldn't it yo-yo with the addition of higher PH water each week? Is the buffer going to be the most help with that? I am guessing that I test and treat the water after I add Prime? And then use the frog moss in addition?

Thanks for your input, Carl. I really appreciate it! I'll keep an eye on him. I just worry, being inexperienced and not knowing for sure exactly what I'm looking FOR!

Jenee'

[Carl]

Since there was Indian Almond leaf in the bag (which lowers pH), my bigger concern was that the pH was extremely low from both fish waste and this leaf, then suddenly added to the high pH water.
I am guessing pH shock is the problem here.

Adjusting the new water with the Acid buffer along with Pillow moss always in the tank (the amount required will depend upon the KH & pH you are shooting for, so some experimenting will be required)

Carl

[Jenee']

Wow...I never realized the shipping conditions plus the leaf would do that. I have soooo much to learn.

I'm on it - I just sent you my order. I already had a cart ready to go for when I would be able to afford a few more items. I usually only spend what I earn and not charge on VISAs, but not in this case!

Thank you so much. You are the man!!!

Jenee'

[Carl]

I saw your order come in.

I hope it was OK, but I noticed that you purchased Marine Alkaline Buffer, which is perfectly fine for African Cichlids, Livebearers, or Brackish, but not the best choice for Bettas. Furthermore, think you intended to order the Acid Buffer.
So I switched your order for the Acid Buffer, I hope this was OK

Carl

[Jenee']

Oh, thank you!!! I did intend to add the acid buffer, but must have hit the wrong one in the drop down box. I am leaving today for the weekend, graduation at OSU, so I will probably get home Sunday and get to the order Monday. Yay!
I also got my IAL in the mail yesterday, and added it to the tank. I'm not a fan of the color, but that isn't what matters, so brown it will be. I feel so much better, hopefully fixing the problem. Thanks again!

[devonjohnsgard]

Ya, stress will do funny things fast to fish. With just balanced clean water, the tail will heal. For reference, I had betta get stuck behind a breeder net I had in the tank. He tore himself up good trying to get out. His tail almost completely shedded away... With just some methylene blue baths for about a week and clean water, most the tail is back. So, three weeks or so?

Consider the Atison spa Betta conditioner, which has IAL, plus other goodies and doesn't turn the water brown. Maybe after your out of IAL.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/BettaSpa.html

I thought the water change every other day was fine.

I think that even with the high pH, just making sure the KH is above 3 right before a water change, it create a stable pH, which is more important than a excite pH.

[Jenee']

My little betta is doing ok, but his fins have continued to shred.  They are  not red, black, cottony or sore looking at all, just disappearing and splitting more.  I know it takes awhile for fins to heal, so how can you tell when a fish is doing better? 

I received my order yesterday, and used the acid buffer with a partial water change, about 25%.  I didn't want to change it too rapidly, so I used just a few grains (about a 1/32 tsp)  in the freshly conditioned water, and I was surprised at how much the PH dropped - from an 8 to a 6.  I added it slowly to the tank to prevent a sudden shock.  (Hence, the only 25% change.)  I thought the combination of the 8 in the tank of 75% water and the 25% addition of 6% would be ok, and less stressful than the high PH and worsening fins from the water he is currently in.  The lesser of two evils, I guess... 

I tested this morning and the PH is 7.6.  I thought I would do very small  (10%?) water changes every couple days to slowly drop to around 7 or 7.2.  Does this sound good?

I also tested for GH and KH with my new kit.  I used water that was right out of the tap yesterday, then tested again this morning on water that sat out for almost 24 hours.  I got different results, so I'm not sure if I tested right yesterday.  I was very careful both days, so I was surprised at the difference. I didn't remember if I tested before or after using Prime, so I wondered if that made a difference.  Nitrates, nitrites and ammonia are still good.  (I feel better with my ammonia alert, though.  It won't take the place of testing, but good for a quick glance throughout the day between testing.)

Yesterday, out of tap       GH  2 drops - 35.8 ppm     KH  7 drops - 125.3 ppm

Today, after sitting          GH  5 drops                     KH  5 drops,   both at  89.5 ppm, if I read the test chart properly. Tested without Prime.

Tank water this morning   GH 7,  KH 4, PH 7.6         I also add the frog moss, which he loves to explore around - and hide UNDER it, too.

Now that all being said, I'm not sure what to do with it, and where to go from here.  I only have a 2.5 gallon tank, and it sounds like it is a bit more difficult to keep it stable.   I have read the aquarium chemistry article several times now, and it is just a bit over my head.  I understand the general concept, but not enough to know what to actually do with it.  How do I know if and when the KH is actually stable?   I added the frog moss to the piece of IAL, a partial wonder shell and the Matrix previously in the tank.  Am I doing enough? Once stable, do I just match the PH of the fresh water for the weekly partial changes to the tank measurement and continue to monitor the KH and GH, etc. ?  

Sigh.....I should have studied for a "term"  or two before I before I bought a betta.      

 

     

[devonjohnsgard]

The KH just has to be 3-5 and that will create a stable pH. That's what you're going for. Since it's coming out of the tab that high, and you're adding acid buffers, you would want to just add even each water change to have the pH come done a bit. The natural frog moss might be enough and the acid buffer not needed.

That frog moss will want to fall apart in the tank, so I'd change it out when it get brown. I usually just put it in the filter.

The tail doesn't look as bad as it could be, I would watch for if it continues to get worse or better once your water chemistry is stable.

[Jenee']

That sounds promising - that my KH is in the right range.  Yay!  Something going in my favor!  I'll keep any eye on him and keep my fingers and toes crossed.

I don't have a HOB filter to put the moss in, as I have the mini sponge filter Carl sells.  I do have an extra little filter bag, though, that I bought for "just in case" I needed it.  Maybe I should put the moss in it and set it near the filter for optimal circulation.   His fins could definitely be worse -  I've seen some pretty sad pictures.  But I'm just so worried after recently losing Max, my Petco betta...  I now wonder if he was slowly poisoned by the high PH, (8.2) as he never showed any outward signs of any fungus, parasites, infections, gill issues, dropsy, SBD, or anything else that I could identify.  I first treated conservatively, then more aggressively as he continued getting worse.  (And bought a master water kit...)   He went downhill over a period of 3 weeks and just layed on the bottom of his tank.  It was heartbreaking.  Just when I made up my mind that I really had to gut it out and euthanaize him the next morning, he passed during the night.  I have to admit I was a little relieved that I didn't have to do it.  Selfish, but honest...  And I will never buy a betta from a chain store again.  I don't want to lose one, and I don't want to support the sad living conditions they are forced to live in. 

Thanks again for the help!

[Carl]

I tested this morning and the PH is 7.6. I thought I would do very small (10%?) water changes every couple days to slowly drop to around 7 or 7.2. Does this sound good?

7.6 is not all that bad either for a Betta, as keeping it stable at an acceptable number is a good goal.

I also tested for GH and KH with my new kit. I used water that was right out of the tap yesterday, then tested again this morning on water that sat out for almost 24 hours. I got different results, so I'm not sure if I tested right yesterday. I was very careful both days, so I was surprised at the difference. I didn't remember if I tested before or after using Prime, so I wondered if that made a difference.

This does not make since other than the vials maybe having some residual test solution. Try rinsing with distilled water between tests.
I do not see how Prime could make a difference with these test parameters, but then I never thought of doing a check of any possible affect.

Another thought;
In looking at your aquarium again, how clean is your substrate?
If you stir it, does a lot of debris come up? Is the epoxy coating on the substrate peeling?

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Jun 14, 2016 17:41:38 GMT -5 Jenee' said:

I'm just so worried after recently losing Max, my Petco betta...  I now wonder if he was slowly poisoned by the high PH, (8.2) as he never showed any outward signs of any fungus, parasites, infections, gill issues, dropsy, SBD, or anything else that I could identify.

I don't think it was from a "high pH", but more a very unstable pH from the shipping and acclimation process, which was large ppm changes... You're thinking on the right track though.

[Jenee']

My substrate is the new flourite I bought from you a couple weeks ago, Carl, so it is clean. I was vacuuming my previous tank once a month with a siphon. I did put a thin layer of larger gravel from the old tank over top of it, but it was recently washed and sterilized after I lost Max. And it was only a few months old.



As far as Max goes, Devon  (is that right?) - I had him for 7 months, so there was a long period of possibly good KH and GH, but 8.0 to 8.2 PH from my tap water. His fins had also frayed, but I naively thought it was just normal wear and tear. I keep trying to figure out what went wrong, because I don't want to repeat that mistake with Zen. I'm one that likes definitive answers, not just guesses.     I did acclimate him to temp and water by floating him, and gradually adding my tank water to his bag. But I was neglectful in not testing the parameters. Again, naive about being told they were tough and hardy and would be fine in "good" water with conditioner.



Thanks, guys for all the input. You don't know how much I appreciate having your voices on my shoulder, helping me out. I feel so much more confident that I will do better this time around with everyone's help. And Zen appreciates you guys even more, thanks to better living conditions!!

[Carl]

Jun 15, 2016 13:32:08 GMT -5 Jenee' said:

As far as Max goes, Devon  (is that right?) - I had him for 7 months, so there was a long period of possibly good KH and GH, but 8.0 to 8.2 PH from my tap water. His fins had also frayed, but I naively thought it was just normal wear and tear. I keep trying to figure out what went wrong, because I don't want to repeat that mistake with Zen. I'm one that likes definitive answers, not just guesses.     

Sometimes the best we can do is educated guesses since we do not know all the facts pertaining to history and unless we microscopically identify any possible bacterial pathogens as well as to prepare petri dish test of antibiotic resistance, we are still making educated guesses. Even Doctors unfortunately have of make educated guesses according to a mentor of mine who was an endocrinologist

I did acclimate him to temp and water by floating him, and gradually adding my tank water to his bag. But I was neglectful in not testing the parameters.

This is what is most important as per pH. while I do not recommend a pH over 8 for Bettas, having a Betta that is shocked by drastic changes in water pH can be even more problematic

Again, naive about being told they were tough and hardy and would be fine in "good" water with conditioner.

Actually the original Betta is quite hardy, it is the inbreeding, poor handling, extremely poor handling that has made many of the fish quite problematic

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/betta-habitat.html

Thanks, guys for all the input. You don't know how much I appreciate having your voices on my shoulder, helping me out. I feel so much more confident that I will do better this time around with everyone's help. And Zen appreciates you guys even more, thanks to better living conditions!!

You're welcome

I think once your sponge filter is also more established (which takes 6 weeks), this will also help.

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I must have missed or forgot that you had him 7 months now. I messed that up. Your right, it's not the accumulation, but I would still say a higher pH, which I'm not sure if it has been stable or not. Having a decent KH does keep it more stable, but could have been drifting? Now we would know what to look for. If you have been doing regular maintenance, I wouldn't think the pH would drop to much... I guess I'm not sure at this point.

[Jenee']

Hey guys-

I just wanted to check in- it has been almost 2 weeks, and my betta is finally turning the corner and growing back his fins and tail.     They are showing new transparent growth, and I am so happy!  I hope he is on the road to recovery now that I have his PH under control.  His tank is still holding strong with zero nitrites, ammonia, and nitrates.  His PH is being lowered slowly to prevent additional shock and stress, and it seems to be going well.  I have been able to maintain it at 7.6, and would like to eventually lower it to around 7.2 to 7.4.   I have IAL and the frog moss in there to help, too.  As long as it remains stable, I am a happy camper!  

It was so difficult to get a photo.  He thinks he is getting fed, so he does his Food Dance and won't hold still!  They are terrible photos, but at least they show the new growth.



Thanks again for the help in his recovery. I couldn't have done it without you!  

[Carl]

Definitely looking better!

Good job!



Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

yah!

[troybtj]

I love happy endings.