Treatment for Nitrate poisoning

[soumendu]

First of all - thankfully i do not have any such issue with my fishes currently - i just wanted to open a thread on this to understand steps of treatment. With my limited knowledge - nitrate poisoning can happen when nitrates go beyond maybe 60 or 80 ppm or higher and can also happen if due to prolonged high nitrate exposure - the fish becomes really sensitive and can exhibit symptoms like bottom sitting , lying on it side , bending of the body. Pardon me and please do correct me if any of this is wrong. When the bend happens - i have never been able to revive any fish (particularly Gold fishes). I know water changes are the most effective ways to bring down nitrates and use of Prime or Seachem Safe etc , but i have not come across an effective way to treat the fish once it happens.

Carl - can you please elaborate more on your views of nitrate poisoning or nitrate shock. I have read many places where they tell to do 10% water change every 1 hr and not a very large change of water suddenly, when you are trying to bring down high level of nitrates so as to not give your fishes a nitrate shock .... 

They also suggest chlorophyll bath or things like that for nitrate poisoning/shock.....


Would really appreciate if you can share your experience on the same ....

Thanks in advance !

[Carl]

First, I have found there is no clear number of what constitutes dangerous long term (or even short term exposure).

My experience has generally found this to be closer to 80-100.
The this can vary greatly as many freshwater fish I have documented long healthy life spans with levels of 40-60 ppm. However with Octopii, I have seen these die off much over 20-30 ppm.

As for nitrate shock, I think others might be confusing this with nitrite shock, as nitrates would have to be VERY high to cause this and even then I have found this is usually accompanied by high nitrites

I document my recommendations of managing nitrates in this article:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.html

Please read this and accompanying detailed references and of you find any specific question that this does not answer, then I ca elaborate (where I can)

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Agreed. From what I've seen and understood, it takes pretty high nitrates to make harmful, but with Nitrites, they are much more harmful.

[soumendu]

Carl and Devon - apologies for starting the discussion and then no response from me. Was not actively on the internet last few days. I also tend to agree about nitrates , but initially when i was very much fighting against high nitrates in my Gold tank (hugely overstocked) - my fishes showed the same symptoms and the API test kits would only point to nitrates with nitrite and ammonia to be 0. Nitrates were in the range of 80 or more ....slowly i also did see the fishes which got exposed to high nitrates - became very sensitive to it or its fluctuations (not sure if my inference here is right though - it might be my wrong conclusion because i was biased with nitrates idea ). Carl - thanks for the link - i did see Spiriluna and Chlorophyll as remedy (which again is hard to find here). I also do agree that during those days my tank water was really really poor - i was not doing any boosting for GH / KH (and i was using 70% RO water as my tap water had 40 ppm nitrates in source) - which should have surely added to the problem.

I could get hold of chlorophyll food grade (liquid form) - but that label indicated it contains Sorbic Acid and Sodium Benzoate - which got me confused if i should use it at all. I even tried making my own chlorophyll from leafy vegetables (spinach) but am not sure if it had right concentration of chlorophyll. I could save 1-2 fishes at this time using it though i was adding it to the tank and not really doing a bath.

Also does salt bath do bad in case of nitrate issues (along with MB) - is it ok to add salt to the bath ?

[Carl]

Apr 22, 2016 3:49:00 GMT -5 soumendu said:

Also does salt bath do bad in case of nitrate issues (along with MB) - is it ok to add salt to the bath ?

The best way to think of salt use is that it will "pull fluids" out of the fish. This can be both bad or good. So if there is poisoning this can be good within reason for nitrites/nitrates.

From this article:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html

"With NaCl (common sodium chloride salt), NaCl draws water/fluids through the fish often helping osmoregulation or draining tissues that have to much fluid present.
However too much NaCl can also dry tissues too much, especially of over used over extended periods of time or too much salt is used even for a shorter time.
This of course also depends upon the fish species and their ability to deal with salt (NaCl)."

Carl

[soumendu]

Thanks for the wonderful link Carl for salt !. It clarified a lot of myths which i had heard and were confused about !.

I forgot to ask ...if i make home made Chlorophyll - any pointers as to how much quantity of leaf to be used (maybe approx) and how much to add for a bath / 4 liters of water ? I know it would be hard to quantify because the leaf content or chlorophyll content might vary ....is there any concern if i accidentally add too much chlorophyll in bath ?

[Carl]

Apr 22, 2016 10:46:12 GMT -5 soumendu said:

Thanks for the wonderful link Carl for salt !. It clarified a lot of myths which i had heard and were confused about !.

I forgot to ask ...if i make home made Chlorophyll - any pointers as to how much quantity of leaf to be used (maybe approx) and how much to add for a bath / 4 liters of water ? I know it would be hard to quantify because the leaf content or chlorophyll content might vary ....is there any concern if i accidentally add too much chlorophyll in bath ?

I have not used this from the leaf, only via powder and I never experimented other that following directions from others who turned me on to this method. So unfortunately I cannot give you any more direction than in the article.
However, feel free to experiment and teach us what you find!

For others, here are the directions from the "Aquarium Nitrates" article
"If you have access to food grade Spirulina or Chlorophyll, these can also be used as a bath: Pre-mix 1 ounce of spirulina or chlorophyll per gallon of aquarium water (I suggest first liquifying the powder with sterile water to a make a liquid ounce); allow fish to soak for 15-30 minutes; perform this once or twice a daily. Use a fresh bath for each bath using your display tank water. This can be performed in 1/2 ounces with 1/2 gallon too for smaller fish."


Carl

[troybtj]

I've had fish in 150ppm Nitrate water for weeks before without showing issues other than clamped fins. That cleared up after a few successive 30% water changes to remove organics and get clean water into the tank in addition to fresh salts (aka electrolytes, not NaCl/"Salt").

Nitrates are an easily measured parameter that can say much about the overall water quality and conditions of the aquarium, similar to reading the ORP value, but not the same. When Nitrates are very high, there are usually several other not easily tested or untestable, but very important water parameters that are out of whack.

This could be due to any number of things, such as high bio load, lack of water changes, extreme debris/mulm build up, hidden dead fish(es), which will show high Nitrates, but also completely depleted KH and cations (aka "active salts/electrolytes" vs non bioavailable mineral compounds), along with a higher pathogen load overall, and more issues that are "unseen" yet have an effect on aquatic health.

Rather than trying to synthesize a chlorophyll solution, simply moving the fish to a clean and balanced hospital tank with good circulation and no extra medicines/chemicals would be the first and likely best treatment. After observation there, decide if there is a problem if not perking up after a few hours. During that time, test and clean the environment it was in, add UV sterilization, change water more frequently, etc.

Adding a band aids which mask the issue causing the symptoms you are seeing, results in a bigger "crash" when that also stops helping.

[soumendu]

I completely agree with you Troybtj. As i had said before - my water was really really poor when i used to face this. Not every aquarists know and understand the importance of KH and GH and electrolytes. They have heard of people dosing for planted tanks - but boosting water for fish health --is a bit far fetched for them. Another problem is - the water in this part of the country is not really fish friendly ... I am part of a small group of whatsapp - and there people are just learning (or they think they are). My learning from this wonderful group is something which i will never forget (and i am still learning). I try helping them there with the limited way possible in India (eg: good UV product is completely missing). There are many myths - and people are more skeptical on spending money for things which they feel are not required and even joke about (eg test kits) - its really hard to explain. But using few medications / line of treatment (classic and magical one is MB + Salt bath for them) mentioned here i could gain a bit of their trust and that's the reason for me asking about nitrates. People don't have hospital or 2nd tank out here ...anyways ...Thanks a lot !. Chlorophyll is the last resort if a fish is found with symptoms - and i still don't know if a person here would take the effort to make Chlorophyll at all .

[troybtj]

What you are describing as "Nitrate Shock" sounds a lot like "Old Tank Syndrome", where people set up a tank, and simply don't change water at all until something is wrong. i.e. zero preventative maintenance. That "Syndrome" is a combination of malnourished fish, diseases, fungus, and lack of active salts - calcium, magnesium, sodium are the big three, but other trace salts also matter. Think of the state of the fish at that point as a homeless person who goes to the hospital for a breathing problem. His bones will be brittle, his immune system weak, his organs not at top function, every system is barely keeping him alive, let alone keeping his immune system at a level where antibiotics can help it fight an infection. That person may die from the breathing problem, but there were many other factors at work there. Same with ill fish and "Old Tank Syndrome".

Using poor source water only increases the amount and frequency of water changes in an aquarium. If fish live the first few weeks, the water is "good enough", no poisons, no pathogens, etc. Rather than a 10% water change per month (or more), you may need to do as much as 25% per week to maintain minerals if you have extremely soft water and high bio loads. Adding extra minerals and carbonates to water that keeps humans healthy isn't required unless "building" water from RO/DI scratch for harder to keep fish, or to encourage breeding, etc.   The one exception are Wonder Shells which help a lot with low GH "soft" water, it's not a requirement, but more of a multivitamin to improve overall osmotic function in fish by adding the "big three" along with trace salts.  To be clear, I'm using the chemistry definition of salts, rather than the culinary one.   The new term for them in living systems is "Electrolytes" when they are active and not bound to another element, which converts that electrolyte into a dissolved biologically inert mineral instead.

The solution to pollution is dilution. That applies from nuclear reactors to oil spills to aquariums. Especially aquariums because there are so many important parameters that test kits can't measure. Short of some involved chemistry experiments and equipment, those parameters are "unknowable" to even advanced aquarium keepers in the US. New water is so much cheaper and faster!

Dechlorinated water will be pathogen/fungus free, and you don't want to use chlorinated water or else a bio filter will either destroyed or never be developed. If the Nitrates are climbing that high, and fish are dying off in months instead of years with 10% water changes, increase the frequency of the changes, and if that doesn't help, increase the amount of water changed each time by a bit. Weekly should be enough for lower load tanks as long as the gravel is vacuumed and there is some form of filter.

I just stated this in another thread: Aquarium hobbyists don't keep fish. They maintain pet water that pretty fish happen to live in.

[soumendu]

Yes - it surely does. Due to lack of electrolytes - all my fishes were weak , no immunity ...etc etc. I understand it and i have no issues in admitting it - the real reason was lack of knowledge. Even I was unlucky with water which i get here. Its not true although about water changes for me - but mine was case of complete lack of minerals and good water.