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Post by kagome on Nov 4, 2008 14:52:29 GMT -5
Ok, so this is kind of a long story about my new tank. About a month ago my husband bought me a new tank. It's a 38g long and tall, basically it's shaped like a 55g but just isn't as wide from front to back.
I had read Carl's article about ammonia cycling and order a sponge filter kit to run in my already established 10g and then switch over to the new tank. I was also planning on taking some gravel out of the 10g as well to seed my biofilter and help get through this initial ammonia cycle. The problem is when I was while I was waiting for the new stuff to get here the fish in my 10g got some sort of protozoan infection which I treated with Quickcure.
I went ahead and set up the 38g but with all new stuff, nothing from the old tank, and just put in the sponge filter without running it in the sick tank. I thought I'd just go with the fish food method and cycle it that way. But then the guy I buy my fish from said that he had gotten in the clown loaches I'd asked to get in for me and wanted me to pick them up. I picked up my 3 loaches, their each only about 2" long right now; I figured that wouldn't be too much of a bioload in a tank that size. All of my numbers looked good except ammonia, so I added Prime. I've done several water changes with Prime added instead of Start Right. The fish seem ok at this time, they don't appear to be stressed. So here's what I'm wondering:
1. Is it safe to put some gravel and filter media from the tank that was sick but looks ok now after treatment? Or is it simply not worth the risk?
2. How long does Prime work? I know it could be a while to get through this ammonia cycle, so should I just keep doing frequent small water changes and use Prime instead of Start Right until my ammonia numbers come down?
3. Should I go ahead and add Wonder Shells now or should I wait for the cycle to be over?
4. I was thinking of putting Blue and Gold German Rams together with some small size Angelfish. Do any of the Ram people out there know how compatible they are with each other? I was told that they're both pretty peaceful and thought they would be nice together.
I would really appreciate some pointers, am I doing the right thing?
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Post by Carl on Nov 4, 2008 15:33:34 GMT -5
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Post by brenda on Nov 4, 2008 15:39:24 GMT -5
I can't help with all your questions...Sorry. I don't think I would risk using anything from the 10 gallon it may be fine but Clown loaches can sometimes be easily stressed which may make them more susceptible to getting whatever infected your 10 gallon if whatever it was is still viable. Prime is good stuff. I would keep doing small daily or everyother day water changes and add the prime of course. It will take longer to cycle your tank but you don't really have a choice with the clowns in there. You will know your tank has cycled when ammonia and nitrite is 0 and you have somesort of nitrate readings...You should always register some nitrates if your tank is fully cycled.
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Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 16:15:52 GMT -5
On 1. I personally don't find use of the gravel to be much of an issue unless you already had a known pathogen in that tank before. Carl and Bill (bikeguy) are more adept in terms of disease then I am, as is 8 in the Corner and they may have additional input on that that I can't think of. Outside of anything you might have had in the tank before, I can't see why this is going to hurt anything.
On 2. I think Carl hit that well and I wouldn't expect otherwise. Just keep in mind though, not only will the Prime treat that ammonia for you, but acts as the dechlorinator as well as can bind up the nitrites too. It's a very well made all around product I think personally, no fish keeper should be without and given the properties is has and job it performs, that you cannot overdose this either, I can't understand why this isn't more wide spread in use.
On 3. Carl again would probably know more, and I have to wonder myself, given that a Wonder Shell tends to increase your hardness values and that subsequently raises your PH in many cases, the increase in PH tends to make ammonia more toxic. I do not know if that factors into the nitrogen cycle process or not, if the ammonia is already ionized. While I have 2 years of college Chemistry, you'll have to forgive me in that it's been numerous years since I've had to do any practical uses of it too.
On 4. Carl gave you a good point here. Bike also keeps South Americans, as does John (Murdock) now. Eve has kept Rams before too. I haven't but I tend to find the concepts in cichlid keeping can still be applied cross species if one uses some thought process to it. 8 In The Corner also is a very experienced keeper of cichilds and Brenda has been keeping them for awhile now too, though Brenda, 8 and myself are more of African keepers, I have to add this.
I tend to look at the temperment of the species and factor that with where each species tends to inhabit. You also have to factor this into the overall footprint of the tank. This sounds like a lot to take in at once, but in reality, it's not. If it's just new to someone, over time, if you keep these things in your head, it comes to you in your sleep and then some. Angels get a bit bulky, but aren't exactly speed burners in a tank either. Rams don't get too bulky or large, move about as slow as Angels too. But the advantage you'd have in this case, is that the Angels would tend to dwell higher in a tank water column then a Ram would, as the Ram is more of a substrate dweller.
The interaction levels of these two species should be limited, but this is where your overall footprint comes into play. In the case of Africans, in almost every case, outside of maybe a Hap tank, a long tank serves you the best to allow maximum boundries among Mbuna types. Haps and Peacocks don't spend as much time lower in the tank, so longer tanks are ok, but height in a Hap/Peacock tank is also good.
With this idea in your head, you would want to look at your height here for keeping Angels. I'd say you'd want at least, a very minimum of 18 inches of height in the tank to keep the Angels happy enough from going lower in the tank. If you have it say at 20 to 24 inches, I'd say the odds of the Angels getting into it with Rams is going to be less then like 10% because you always can end up with a cichlid that goes outside the norm and has homocidial thoughts. It does happen from time to time, but you can't really predict it nor do much about it other then isolate or sell/replace an over aggressive cichild.
I'm guessing here you got at least 18 inches or more in height with your tank footprint and I wouldn't suspect you'd have any issues. With keeping most any cichlid though, you'll still want to monitor this tank over time. Sometimes aggression may not set in until sexual maturity of a species, sometimes it can be sooner. Taking time to observe how they interact is pretty much a must. Even after a year or two, I'd still monitor for any changes in aggression. Generally speaking, the onset of spawning is a major factor when it comes to aggression.
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Post by Carl on Nov 4, 2008 20:55:19 GMT -5
Jon, the concern with the gravel is the possibility of the transfer of Ich trophozoites, especially since Clown Loaches are so sensitive to it. You are right that at higher pH ammonia is More toxic as it is predominately in the NH3 form (see the chart in this article to determine ammonia ionization at different pH: Aquarium Nitrogen CycleAs for Wonder Shells, these actually have little effect on pH other than aiding at stabilizing pH where it already is, but they do NOT increase pH being basically minerals other than the carbonates necessary for increasing pH. Where Wonder Shells can help is similar to Prime; BOTH are Redox Reducers which is VERY important during times of stress except Wonder Shells have an advantage in that they are constantly adding to the chemistry unlike Prime (not to knock Prime as it is one of the best aquatic conditioners on the market IMO). Also the Wonder Shells have a tendency to absorb ammonia (albeit temporarily) and aid in adding minerals that are important for osmoregulation which is VERY important when stressers such as nitrites or ammonia are present. Summarizing, I would be this blunt to say that a tank that is NOT cycled that contains fish should NOT be without a Wonder Shell. Carl |
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Post by kagome on Nov 4, 2008 23:51:34 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies guys!
Ok, for right now this is what I'm doing. Everyday I'm taking out 2 1/2g and replacing it with new water treated with Prime. The only Wonder Shell I have is in the 10g that was sick, but I just ordered 10 from Carl the other day. The moment they arrive I will put one in the 38g. I am also feeding very conservatively and waiting until I see them out in the open foraging to drop in 1/2 of the little bottom feeder wafers. So far I've seen them go and eat them completely within a few minutes.
jonv-- My 38g is 20" tall. Towards the back of the tank I have a lot of silk plants for the Rams to hide in and also large open swimming areas at the front of the tank. I also have a 1' Japanese pagoda that has small hidey caves and a very large Buddha that has a rather large hidey cave. I figured that the rams would probably hang out towards the bottom among the many plants while the angels would hang out higher up in the more open areas. But should an angel decide it wants to hide, the Buddha is big enough to house a pretty good sized angel or they could hide in the very tall bushy silk plant that goes almost to the top of the tank and is in front of my sponge filter so that it's not so obvious at a glance. The loaches thus far have claimed the corner with the sponge filter, although they do like to come out and rest on the Buddha, especially his feet. I'm going to try and get a picture of them resting there, it's so cute!
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Post by jonv on Nov 4, 2008 23:55:03 GMT -5
Well this rather does diverge off the use of Prime itself but at least in terms of the discussion, I doubt your Angels will feel a need to hide unless you have a group where there is maybe more then one male disputing what it feels is it's area. For the most part, they should be content to be out in the open I'd think, of course the more experienced with this species, feel free to offer your input. I think your overall planned set up seems to be sound and would be surprised if you ran into issues
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Post by kagome on Nov 5, 2008 0:11:21 GMT -5
jonv-- Actually, in my previous Angel tank, I had a castle with a cave in it. I had four angels in there. Two of them would squeeze into that cave together all the time, almost everyday. They would want to be fed and pop out of there, eat, swim around for a while, then squeeze back in there. I NEVER saw the other two come in or out of there. All for were of the same variety, same size, although I'm not sure of the sex, and I watched the tank a lot and never saw anybody picking on anybody else. They all seemed rather peaceful with each other, even at feeding time. So maybe with angels it just depends on the individual fish? Everything I've read about the Rams says that they need to have a lot of hiding places as well as large open swimming areas, so I've tried to set the tank up with that in mind. As for the clown loaches, I've never had a problem with clown loaches bothering anyone else and when I get my rams the loaches should be of a size where the Rams might chase after them but won't be able to actually hurt them. However, with my old angel tank, I did find that Yo Yo loaches and angels don't mix. My Yo Yo was very small but harassed my angels so bad I had to trade him in. So no Yo Yo's in this tank!!
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