Bacteria additives make bacterial infections worse??

[Deleted]

Greetings Carl/All,

I am in NO rush for an answer here.... Carl wrote that bacterial additives make bacteria infections worse in one of his replies to the Cardinal tetra post (I would have to reread all of them to find it). I want to draw more attention to that here. I know you don't add bacteria products during treatments that would kill the good bacteria anyways wasting your money/product, but I didn't know that they can make bacterial infections worse. Carl mentioned Cycle in particular (a product I don't use). I actually asked my "all-knowing" son (chuckles) that very question many years ago and he told me they don't fuel bacteria infections as they are good bacteria and will work to overtake the bad bacteria consuming the nutrients (can't remember what all he said as it was years ago...He taught me how to care for freshwater fish back in 2006 -- and now I am teaching him what I am learning).

So... last night when I did the water change in my 20 gallon, I only added the Microbe-Lift TheraP which does work to overpower the bad bacteria (don't ask me how). I didn't add any Stability. The angelfish I wrote about in another post does have a bacterial infection - came on sudden and looks pretty bad. I am taking him out to save the rest of the fish. He didn't eat this morning. Down to the hospital tank for him. The remaining Goyder River rainbow is pretty aggressive now and may just "take him out".  I can't start another round of Maracyn Plus just yet as I put Pimafix in the ten gallon last night (although now there is a parasite present in the water - I will write more on that in another post - the "How I save my fish" one).

So Carl/Devon/Parker/anyone... Just post the links here for me and others to find.

Thanks,

Judy

[Carl]

Heterothropic bacteria are commonly used in the vast majority of waste digesters and cycling aids. These are much faster acting than autotrophs and provide the immediate results many are looking for even of long term results are not as good or downright dangerous (although as I noted in the Neon Tetra/FNT Disease article, the incidence of these bacteria becoming pathogenic is low)

From my Nitrogen cycle Article:
"Heterotrophic Bacteria are an organism that requires organic substrates to get its carbon for growth and development. Some are strictly aerobic, but many are facultative anaerobes (they can survive in either the presence or absence of oxygen).
Heterotrophic Bacteria are generally found in most over the counter aquarium cycling products (especially "Sludge Removers") due to their portability and quick activity.
Heterotrophs can be either gram-positive (ex: Bacillus) or gram-negative (ex: Pseudomonas) which in the case of Pseudomonas many gram negative aquarium treatments (such as Kanamycin) can be effective against Pseudomonas while not harming true Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

Another point is growth (which is why Heterotrophic bacteria are favored for cycling products); nitrifying (Autotrophic) bacteria will double in population every 15-24 hours under optimal growth conditions. Heterotrophic bacteria, on the other hand, can reproduce in as little as 15 minutes to 1 hour."

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

In particular are the family of Pseudomonas bacteria, which can be known pathogens and are commonly in most Heterothropic bacteria since they are easy to culture and are found in most soils.
One in particular that is generally safe, but has been found to be toxic to fish under certain conditions is Pseudomonas chlororaphis

This is why knowing what is in a product is so important IMO
As a product can work quite well, but unbeknownst to the user can be lurking a ticking time bomb that can go off under the right conditions

Here are a few outside references:
www.thewatchers.us/Heterotrophic.html
microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Pseudomonas_chlororaphis

So in short, I would have to respectfully disagree that these so called "good bacteria" are always good!

I have an article about Pseudomonas that I have been working on for some time, but long hours doing more necessary work has kept me from finishing and since this is an article I want to triple check my work with others work, I am likely a long ways from finished unless things change dramatically around here

Carl

[Deleted]

Thanks Carl,

I needed the information in an easy to find location.

I really appreciate all of this help! The product by Tropical Science - Immune Plus - acts in a way similar to TheraP... It is a bacteria product. I cancelled my order on that as I didn't want to risk it freezing along the way. It was on back order. Wisconsin has been much colder than Ohio.

All of the "science" on how the bacteria additives work is confusing to me. I will read up on all of this again.
Microbe-Lift Special Blend is more of a "waste digester" so I won't use that one in the 20 gallon until all indication of diseases are gone. I just saw a bad spot on my black angelfish this morning and will net her to put Bio Bandage in it. I feel fortunate to still have her, too. She accidentally got sucked up into the vacuum tube and I reacted poorly. Rather than just tilting the tube to gradually release the water, I pulled it out of the water and "swoosh!" - she was dumped out. She was stressed for days after that. I really need to quit doing water change later at night when I am not thinking clearly --- chuckles.

It is just easier to ask you where the information is. Hopefully others on the forum will find it now, too.

Well...another product I need to stop using in my hospital tank is KH Booster (which does have a bacteria additive). I need to just use Seachem Alkaline Buffer to keep the KH/pH up:
From your article:
"Most of these products (all dry products in particular) actually contain species of Heterotrophic bacteria from the genera Bacillus, Pseudomonas, Escherichia, and others (as these bacteria are much easier packaged with a reasonable shelf life under normal conditions/room temperatures)."

I started to just use the KH Booster as it is a more affordable product. Lesson learned.  

Cheers,

Judy

[Carl]

Dec 21, 2014 12:56:54 GMT -5 @judy4fish said:

It is just easier to ask you where the information is. Hopefully others on the forum will find it now, too.

Judy

This is a good point , and why I am active in the forum and also how I best prefer to use my email for as well; To help point persons to the best information I can provide so that persons can best understand and then make educated decisions to help themselves.

Even as the author of many of these articles, I occasionally have to use the search bar on AAP or Aquarium/Pond Answers then use "Control F" on the keypad to even further narrow the search
Since 2010 when a very knowledgeable script and html writer "came on board" for a short time, we have also added # (hash-tag) quick jump indexing (he designed) to most articles for much faster referencing and sharing of information.

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Great reference here. Very educational Carl!


I would also want to know if the contenued use of these products are safe? I only use cycle aids, when I'm starting a new tank or doing a large water change. I would recommend good filtration, if these aids are always needed. I could see why someone would use them, when quickly setting up a hospital tank and do treatments at the same time. These aids would make for a harder treatment.