display tank treatment options

[angelminx]

I've recently noticed a few whitish spots/streaks on the side of some of my Black Neon Tetras.  I'm not sure what the problem is , but I wanted to move them to my quarantine (hospital) tank--where my male Betta is being treated for fin rot.   Unfortunately, I have not been able to capture them, so I thought that maybe I should try some kind of treatment in their (55G display) tank.  Last night I treated the tank with Pimafix (after I 1st noticed the problem).  I have Nerites and Chocolate Rabbit Snails, a Bamboo Shrimp, and 2 Amanao Shrimp (I just recently "found" the smaller one that I thought might have been eaten "long ago"--He's now about the same size as the large one I got at the same time I got him) in the tank with my other fish and Ghost Shrimp (and plants).  I am going to do a water change tomorrow, although the water parameters are fine and I wasn't going to do one for another week, and was planning on adding some aquarium salt afterwards.  I'll remove both carbon inserts--the newest one is ~1 1/2 weeks old--and run the Purigen for a couple of hours after the water change, too. 

I can't move the more delicate shrimp or the snails to the 10G since King's being treated with Kanaplex/Furan 2 combo along with the salt and medicated baths.  Any ideas what treatment I can use in the 55G, or what the problem might be.  Everyone is acting/eating normally, but I am concerned about the whitish areas on my Black Neons.  I don't want them to get any worse, or pass on whatever is affecting them .

Angelminx

[angelminx]

I forgot to ask what type of medication you would suggest for making medicated food for this situation.

Thanks again,

Angelminx

[Carl]

Your Tetras MAY have "Neon Tetra Disease or FNT Disease.

I baths is definitely called for if this is the problem with Methylene Blue, Metronidazole and maybe Eyrthromycin


Any food preparation should be with Metronidazole

Reference:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/02/neon-tetra-disease.html

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#erythromycin
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#metronidazole
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Quickcure.html#methylene

Carl

[angelminx]

Thanks, Carl. [This is aggravating, just before I finished typing my response, the computer logged off--without warning--to configure updates, so I had to get back on the site, log back on, etc, and start over , as well as try to remember what I had written!]

How would you suggest trying to catch them for their baths?  I have a breeder net (2, actually) to keep them in afterwards, it's just catching them to start out with that's the problem.  I've tried "sneaking up" on them while they eat, but they still scatter in all directions.  It's hard enough catching one fish, much less a whole school... .  Should I consider treating the Black Phantoms as well?

Until I can catch them for their baths, do you have any suggestions for interim treatment?  Or should I just go with the medicated food, and for how long.

Thanks again, Carl, you're great !

Angelminx

[devonjohnsgard]

Oct 25, 2014 13:08:50 GMT -5 angelminx said:

Until I can catch them for their baths, do you have any suggestions for interim treatment?  Or should I just go with the medicated food, and for how long.

Since it's intestinal, I would try the medicated food for 3 or 4 doses. Best would be the bath though.

[Carl]

I would keep them in breeder nets once caught, but catching initially likely will be the tricky part

The trick I used was to position a larger deep net between rocks, then use a smaller net to chase the fish into the larger net with

Carl

[angelminx]

I just released King (my Betta) from his (what I call) "Basic-Med" Bath (salt/MB/Kanamycin/Furan 2) back into the 10G, and double-checked the 55G . 

I put my 2 large nets (~5"; I also have my LARGE net--Oscar-sized--that I can try later) in the 55G earlier today (? ), and have checked them throughout the day.  I did manage to catch 3 of the Black Neons all at once earlier , but one of them managed to get away as I was pulling the net to the surface .  I also caught one of the Black Phantoms, the same way, a little later .  THIS time one of the Ghost Shrimp was sitting calmly in the net .    Everyone seems to go for the green net--one of my nets is green (the older and softer of the 2), and the other one is the so-called "Infra-Red" net, that fish aren't supposed to be able to see coming.  I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, it doesn't really make any difference, because they can "feel" it coming  (water movement against their lateral lines) .

I've started adding dissolved salt (a little under 1 T/5 gallons tank water) to the tank, a little at a time, and will continue to do so till the end of the day tomorrow.  I've also given them a couple feedings of Kanamycin-soaked mysis shrimp (I have a couple cubes each left of mysis, bloodworms, and spirulina brine shrimp):  I added the powder to one of the (unused) plastic medicine cups I have, placed a frozen cube in it, and poured a little Garlic Guard over it, and let it thaw.  Then I stirred it up, and gave one feeding this afternoon, and the rest (which I had kept in the fridge) an hour or so ago.  They all ate the 1st feeding (while they were all free), but the ones now in the breeder net didn't really pay much attention to the shrimp when I 1st put it in with them.  When I checked after releasing King, most of what was in the net was gone.  However, since I didn't actually see them eating it, it may have been the ghost shrimp that ate it.  Earlier in the year, I had fed my angel with fin rot this way, and I saw a couple of the ghost shrimp actually working at (and accomplishing ) pulling the bloodworms through the breeder net.

I'm going to try to catch some more of the fish this evening , after they're "asleep" .  I have the cheap Marineland LEDs that can be switched to blue-only lights that I will use to (hopefully) be able to find them.  If I need to try the "Oscar net" later, I will, but it's a little unwieldy with the plants in the tank (obviously not a problem with an Oscar...I miss her ).

More on the adventure later ,

Angelminx

[angelminx]

My fishies are NOT happy campers .

Last night I was able to catch most of the rest of my tetras (Black Phantoms, as well as Black Neons), leaving only 3 left to snag this AM.   It was kind of awkward trying to do it, because I had to hold the Marineland LED strip with one hand, and try to aim it to light the correct area of the tank, as well as follow the fish with it, and maneuver the net with the other hand.  The 1st couple of fish were no real problem, but after a few minutes, the others were awake and on guard, even though I took a few breaks.  The biggest problems, besides coordinating angling the light correctly and handling the net, were the center brace, and at the last minute, the fish getting away because the net would get caught by/tangled up in the plants...both the branches/leaves near the top, and the floating plants.  The biggest culprits were the Hornwort and the Water Sprite . 

This morning, before I left for church, I placed "Oscar's net" in the tank; when I got back, the 3 remaining tetras (1 female Phantom, and 2 Neons) were "sitting" near the net opening, and I had no problem nudging them into the net and scooping them up (although with the size of the net, I still ran into the Water Sprite).  Of course, if I still had more fish to catch, the process would have taken a lot longer.

I gave them their 1st bath this afternoon.  I had to do the water change in the 10G, and the temps there needed to even out before I could start THEIR bath (the temp in the 10G is 73 degrees, and in the holding container it's 78.5); I wanted to do both baths at the same time (I have 2 specimen containers, so I can do 2 different baths at once).  Sooo much easier to catch them in the breeder net, and then again, to move them back to it from their bath.  They did eat their medicated spirulina brine shrimp with no problem early this afternoon--I waited a while after the final capture, to give them all a chance to settle back down.  They are feeling a little vulnerable while restricted to both the breeder net and the bath container.  I'll give them their 2nd feeding (what's left from the medicated cube) later tonight.  Not sure yet if I'll feed them 1st, or give them their bath 1st, but probably the food since they won't be as agitated (from my movements near the tank surface) yet.

[devonjohnsgard]

Keep it up angelminx. Sounds like you are doing it right.

[angelminx]

Since I have to wait for my new computer (again) I went ahead and downloaded a few photos that I have questions about.  The Black Neons are halfway through their treatment (baths, I finished the medecated food--Metro +) of Kanamycin/MB/Erethromycin  in "salted" tank water Baths.  [The Black Phantoms are in for good measure.]  I don't really see any difference.  Except in this one, on the body by the pectoral fin.  I don't know if this is new, or I just missed it before.

     

More pics of the "original" malady to follow.

[angelminx]

The next 6 pictures are shown in the sequence they were photographed:

    

[angelminx]

In all of these photo, I took the pics before adding in the MB.  Most of the tiny white flecks are bubbles, or spots on the glass or the specimen container.

     

I'm not sure how well you can see the white areas on some of the kids,  but I have been treating for Neon Tetra Disease/FNT as suggested.  Every once in a while I will notice a small piece or 2 of something floating in the bath water with them.  I think it may be little pieces of slime coat, but I haven't been able to examine any yet.

Conclusions?

Thanks,

Angelminx

[angelminx]

In the 2nd of the 3 set of photos, in the middle one, you can see the beginnings of the "growth" at the (back) base of the Black Phantom's dorsal fin. This is a "new" outbreak. Both Gramps and the female that had it died. I'll post more on that, later.

[angelminx]

BTW, the the 1st set of pics with the female Neon took FOREVER to get .  For some reason, the fish all insist on facing to the left !

[Carl]

Angelminx;

I am not actually seeing any good examples of Neon Tetra or FNT disease.

The one fish did seem to have some growth on the pectoral fin, but I am not positive from the angle.

If this progresses, a total switch in bath "tactics" might be in order, such as salt and Potassium Permangante Bath (no other meds in the bath water)

Another consideration to add to the current bath water or better, the main aquarium is the product Judy likes (as well as mentioned by an aquarium maintenance colleague); SeaChem StessGuard

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#stressguard
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Waterconditioner.html#permanganate

Carl

[angelminx]

Should I finish out the Metro/MB/Erythro baths? I have 3 more days to go after today.

[Deleted]

Hi Angelminx,

What is so good about Seachem Stress Guard is it helps medications bond to the fish (and it won't gunk up filter media like some slime coat products do). Whenever I open my "back-up" bottle, I order another bottle. AAP just got some in stock (yeah!).

Are the white spots on the surface of the fish.... or are the scales actually missing? It is hard to tell in the photos....If the scales are missing - erosion/small "holes" - be sure to add vitamins.

I have had cory cats get "hole-in-the-head"/Lateral-line-disease and all that is needed to heal them is improving the mineral balance (Wonder Shell) and vitamins. My fish get a dose of Boyd's Vita-Chem once a week (the vitamin C is absorbed) -- then three times a week, they get frozen foods with drops of vitamins added.

If the white bumps a clear blister like bumps (I had a Cardinal Tetra get those), then treat for bacteria. My Cardinal tetra got better just with my trusted Microbe Lift product (for bacteria).

Hope your little guys get better.

Judy D.

[angelminx]

Hi, Judy!

It is kind of hard to tell, since they are so small. I took a look at them from above, just a little while ago, and what I can see looks like small milky raised "bumps"...one looked more like a scale might be sticking out slightly from its body, as opposed to a bump. I was careful when pouring out their bath water with their last bath--I saw a couple of the mystery "mini-globs" floating in the water. I managed to feel them when most of the water had been dumped (couldn't catch hold of them while they floated) and they were definitely slimy, so I am assuming they are partly sloughed-off slime coat. Maybe that's what the whitish spots/patches are. They just always seem to be in the same spot (particular to each individual fish) all the time. If they injured themselves, or were injured somehow, I never saw it happen.

Whatever the sore/growth is on the one female, at/on her pectoral, I haven't been able to get a good look at it, since she won't stay facing to the right long enough. I'll try and check her again tomorrow. The male Black Phantom that shows the growth at the back of the base of the dorsal fin (also at the base of the tail) is going through the same thing that others that I've had over the years seem to get. More on that on a separate thread.

Carl, should I give all the Tetras (Neon and Phantom) the PP baths, or just the one with the "growth" on the pectoral?

Angelminx

[Carl]

If you are seeing a difference with these baths, continue. If not discontinue as per the Aquarium Medication article

Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Medication.html#change_med

I would use the PP bath for any fish that exhibit these symptoms and are not responding to other treatments.

Make sure if you use vitamins, that these are used in a fish food soak or a part of a adhering slime coat preparation (Bio-Bandage) where they will do some good.

Reference ("Do Fish Drink"):
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

From above article:
"These different abilities explain why some fish such as catfish are sensitive to salt in the water, but this is also why some fresh water fish are helped by salt to generate a mucous slime coat on their skin which is necessary for disease prevention.

For proper osmoregulation electrolytes such as positive ions of calcium, magnesium and other elements are important as well.
This is important and not realized by many aquarists (especially in freshwater), however not having these electrolytes present in the water whether by depletion or by the use of water marketed as "drinking water", distilled water, or RO water that has NOT been re-mineralized can cause problems with the fish’ ability to move fluids in and out of their bodies and in the long term resist disease.

This difference also explains why when one adds commercial vitamin preparations to a freshwater aquarium, the dilution renders it 99% useless since freshwater fish absorb much more slowly than bony saltwater fish "drink". Such vitamin preparations should only be used in a food soak or similar (unless one is into wasting money by feeding the entire water column)."

Carl

[angelminx]

Hi, Guys!

I've had to discontinue the baths any way.  Yesterday, after church, I stopped at the store, where I fell--a case of rug vs. rubber soles.  It happened just as I was skirting the shopping carts to get to one I could access.  I didn't lose consciousness or anything, but I was a bit dizzy/nauseous immediately after the fall.  I had to wait a bit for my head to clear, and the pain to subside a bit before the employees could help me into a chair, to rest up a bit.  They even provided a bag of peas for me to put on my knee (the same leg that I broke in my last fall , in 2009).  I managed to pick up the things I stopped for, then drove to the ER to be checked out.  While I was there I called my Mom to have her come get my milk and her ground turkey since they needed to be refrigerated and I didn't know how long I would be (turned out to be ~2 1/2 hours).

Luckily, nothing was broken--the ER doc said he was pretty sure nothing was, but since my bones are so thin, he wanted the radiologist to do a read, just to be sure.  The diagnosis:  "multiple contusions and strains".  The least woriesome is a skinned elbow on my right arm.  My right hand: when I fell the little to middle fingers were very painful, eventually progressing to just the ring finger being effected.  While I was in the ER I couldn't bend it at all, even though I could earlier, and pretty much can now, however it is still swollen, and has progressively turned black and blue.  The bruising has now extended into my hand, and is not so sore now.  My right knee, which I was most worried about, was also skinned, and is now slightly swollen and not too sore...I have a metal plate in my leg a little below the knee, and towards the right.  My left ankle:  they put a splint on it, and it hurt to walk on it yesterday (not too bad today), so between that and my right knee, I was pretty tender, and looked hilarious getting around...not to mention SLOW!  Finally, there's my left wrist:  I've got a splint on it, too.  That's the hand that holds my cane (I only really have to use it any more, for uneven terrain, curbs, etc, so I have to keep it with me when I go out, just in case), which is one with the 4 legs (for more stability...and the fact that it doesn't bother my cat, where a normal cane freaks her out--go figure).  After leaving the hospital I had to turn it around and use it backwards since I can't use it in my left hand.  As to my wrist, it was fairly sore after I fell, and was awkward to use driving home (I had to use my arm to activate the turn signal...), but didn't bother me as much (till towards the end of my ER visit) as it did when I got home.  The Doc said that I need to stay off my feet for the next week or so, and my wrist (and that hand and part of the arm) is so sore that I can't use it.  It's not AS bad now as yesterday, but still close to unbearable.  I hardly got any sleep yesterday, and even throughout today, because the pain was/is so bad.  I sure didn't think it would be the part of me causing the most problems.  I can't use my left arm at all now--except closest to the elbow when I need to open my medication bottles, or prop my water bottle to pour it....  I'm not that great a typist, but this is taking forever with only one hand.  I'm still not up to par--quite a ways to go--but it wasn't till now that I felt up to posting anything. 

As to the Black Neons,  I am going to keep them in the breeder net for a couple days, and then if I feel up to it (I sure as heck can't do anything at the moment) will give them a couple of PP swabs before releasing them.  They don't seem to be doing any worse, but, since I won't be able to get the Bio Bandage or StressGuard for a while yet (and they are so hard to catch) I want to "be on the safe side".  The one female with the sore, I will probably keep in the net a bit longer and give a few more baths.

Also, King was supposed to get his last baths Sunday (but I wasn't able to do it) and the final H2O change (after the in-tank treatments) today.  Mom has an appointment tomorrow, so she is going ho help with the H20 change for King.  I am also not able to do the water testing before the water change, and am not sure if Mom will want to try it (she's never done it before), so I may just go with what is the norm when it comes to adding buffer.  I will no longer add salt to either tank.  I was wondering, for King (I never lowered the temp in the 55G), when I should start bringing the temp back up to normal.

Hopefully it won't be too long before I can start using my left hand.  I'm left-handed, so haven't been able to make any notes about the fish/tanks.  Tomorrow I'll have Mom make a note in the journal about the fall, and its consequences.

Angelminx