Disease Prevention - Proper mineral balance

[Deleted]

Greetings Carl/All,

Prior to reading information on your site again last week, I had read everything on Seachem's site. I ordered Seachem Fresh Trace. I have used many wonderful products from Seachem. As you know, I did order some Wonder Shells from AAP. I plan to break them down and tuck them into the bed in and around the rocks -- so they look more a part of the aquascape (shells would look out of place -- smile). The smallest ones, I will use "as is". I ordered all three sizes so I could see what they look like.

What - if any- are the benefits of Wonder Shells over Seachem Fresh Trace? I would like some help explaining the differences on another forum. I believe 100% that adding the trace minerals back into the water is essential to insure longer life of the fish....and now need ways to convince others in simple terms. The majority of members there are not going to do the research I have.

If my online research, I came across another forum with bad information... when I am done with this current "naughy" one, I may unsubscribe and join the other one (don't recall the name of that one, so will have to do the same key word search). There is NO way I have time for another right now.

Thanks in advance.... and NO RUSH for an answer.

Judy D

[devonjohnsgard]

I do see some difference between the two, but both will help with proper osm. of a fish. This is the Cal and Mag.

Of course, the two are different dosing methods.

I'll paste the ingredients, which will show you some difference. One that sticks out, is that the WS has salt in it. This is important for prevention and treatment. Something Trace doesn't have. Trace has copper and this should be something people know for inverts. Might have to keep an eye on your copper?

Trace:
calcium chloride, magnesium chloride, potassium iodide, copper sulfate, iron sulfate, zinc sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium fluoride, selenium AAC

WS:
Calcium Carbonate, magnesium, Chloride, Sodium, Sulfate, Potassium, Bicarbonate, Bromide, Borate, Strontium, Fluoride.

[Deleted]

>> Calcium Carbonate, magnesium, Chloride, Sodium, Sulfate, Potassium, Bicarbonate, Bromide, Borate, Strontium, Fluoride.

Thanks Devon,

So...If one is using Aquarium salt regularly, using Fresh Trace will be as beneficial? Note to all -- the iron and copper in Trace is so minuscule that there is no danger of it being toxic in any way. Something in the product reacted (or seemed to react) with whatever my municipality was adding to the water supply back in 2011 (the local water was very toxic to fish/ safe for humans, though), so I stopped using it. I feel confident that since I am using RO water all will be fine.

I have no idea which is more economical to use as I have never tried the Wonder Shells. I do feel I have more control over the use/dosing of Fresh Trace.... while I have no idea how much minerals are getting into the water with WS. I did read that WS will raise the GH, but not to be overly concerned about that. Fresh Trace does not raise GH (at least not in my experience so far).

Once I have had a chance to use both, I will make a post to the other forum. I want to do GH tests along the way. It will be impossible to prove my fish are healthier... that will take time.... I will just be confident I am doing all I can for them (smile).

Question: I have two plecos, many cory cats, loaches/botias - plus one big featherfin catfish - in my tanks upstairs (which is where I planned to test the Wonder Shells). I use 1/2 tablespoon aquarium salt per each 5 gallon bucket of water. The Wonder Shell won't make my salt content too high, will it? I have lost healthy fish in the past when I increased salt content (lost a pleco, a cory and a clown loach -- not all at the same time -- three different instances) - so I am reluctant to follow any advice that tells me to increase salt content. When you folks (Carl in particular) suggested I increase salt content for Costia treatment, I did baths for my infected fish. I would take him out and put him in a bucket with the higher salt content for 30 minutes -- then put him back in the 75 gallon. His mouth is almost completely healed now. Yes, I read all of the information on AAP site that even catfish can tolerate more salt -- I just didn't want to risk losing another fish to my error. I don't get upset when fish just die... but it does bother me when it is my stupid mistake (smile).

[Carl]

There is no salt (sodium chloride) in Wonder Shells or Trace as Devon noted in the ingredients list

Personally as per SeaChem products I prefer Replenish over Trace, but Trace is still an excellent product

As Devon noted dosing and potential Cation replacement is where the Wonder Shell excels.
The Wonder Shells constantly add these mineral Cation while these other products end up with a wave of highs and lows of Cations when used as instructed. However you could use these liquid products in doser as noted in my Chemistry article, but this is an advanced application that is a lot more work than using Wonder Shells, but admittedly more exacting.

BTW, what set Replenish over Trace is I have found better replenishment of Cations

Here is s snip about the very important replacement of positve mineral ions (Cations) from the Aquarium Chemistry article which is why either Wonder Shells or a drip method of liquid element replacements is best:
Depletion of Positive Ions
Think of it this way; a storage battery "works" only when a positive and a negative electrode are present to maintain an electrical current.
When the positive ion charged plates become exhausted, the battery is no longer any good until recharged.
In a lead/acid batteries essentially lead (Pb) and lead oxide (PbO2) are changed to lead(II) sulfate (PbSO) in the discharged state (exhausted positive ions), HOWEVER the lead is still present (as with calcium in an aquarium) in a discharged state.

Water changes and additional supplements are generally necessary to replenish these mineral ions (cations). Using the car battery as an example again, when re-charging, a 12 volt battery will show a charge of up to 14 volts in a 12 volt battery shortly after and at the completion of a charge, this is similar to the high GH (often over 400) with the use of many methods of adding mineral electrolytes such as Wonder Shells.

Reference (please read!)
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

Here is a more basic article:
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#replenish

Carl

[Deleted]

>> Personally as per SeaChem products I prefer Replenish over Trace, but Trace is still an excellent product

Thanks Carl,

I have been using Kent RO Right (which is similar to Replenish in function). I use the dry mix and have a back up container, so don't plan on switching to Replenish any time soon. In time, I will post a question to the Seachem boards about using Replenish - and any benefits over RO Right. While they do not mention Kent by name, I know they do think their product is better.

I had already purchased the back up of RO Right before I read everything on Seachem site.

>> Here is s snip about the very important replacement of positve mineral ions (Cations) from the Aquarium Chemistry article which is why either Wonder Shells or a drip method of liquid element replacements is best

Yes, thank you. I have read this.... but the "average person" may not understand this. I have always had an interest in science, too.... although I have a degree in art education and a masters in education. The "average person" does not have an inquiring mind.... They just want to know the answer of what works and not so much the why. I will give them some simple "whys" and will tell them some key words to search for more details.

I did try this method when I answered a post for someone wanting to use silicone in a filled aquarium (smile) - I gave them the right answer - copied a small snippet from a site to prove my answer was correct (and yes, did give them the link that time as that is the proper way to cite information - so I had to do what is right). Oddly, after I made my post.... someone else came on the forum and posted the exact information (rephrasing) as if some brilliant discovery. The original posting member had already given me a "Like" for my post prior to that.

[devonjohnsgard]

You can up your salt to 1 tbps per 5 gallon and that's still a small amount. This could be increased to 1 tbps per gallon for treatments.
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html

I thought the Chloride and Sodium in the WS made salt. Sorry for the confusion.

[Deleted]

Question for Devon:

Thanks for the article link. I didn't realize that tetras were salt-sensitive. Would you recommend just cutting those tanks that are primarily tetras (some angels, cory cats -- all with loaches/botias, too) just down to one teaspoon of salt per five gallon bucket -- UNLESS new fish are added? While I haven't had any tetras just up and die after a water change, I have had "mysterious deaths" from time to time. I now have Wonder Shells for all of those tanks, too, so they are getting addition minerals. Prior to using conditioned RO water, I had a hard time keeping tetras (Local water supply was just too hard). Now they thrive, but I generally don't get long life from them - maybe a couple of years tops (I do have a few that are over two years old).

Thanks for your help! I am reading threads today since I read soooooo many right after I joined (smile).
Just for you, Devon - Good thing I just have one forum!... One from which I LEARN. What I learn, I share with my son. I learned fish keeping from him...now he is learning from me.

No Rush for an answer. I won't be doing water changes upstairs until next weekend. I will only do the 1 teaspoon per 5 gallon for that change - unless I hear otherwise. I don't have plants.

[Carl]

Thanks for the article link. I didn't realize that tetras were salt-sensitive. Would you recommend just cutting those tanks that are primarily tetras (some angels, cory cats -- all with loaches/botias, too) just down to one teaspoon of salt per five gallon bucket -- UNLESS new fish are added? While I haven't had any tetras just up and die after a water change, I have had "mysterious deaths" from time to time. I now have Wonder Shells for all of those tanks, too, so they are getting addition minerals.

Often with these fish I simply cut back the salt to 0, not just 1 tbsn per 5 gallons after about 6 weeks and only use the salt therapeutically there after.

I think you have already read this article, but I attempt to deal with the controversies around salt use both pro and con:
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html

Prior to using conditioned RO water, I had a hard time keeping tetras (Local water supply was just too hard). Now they thrive, but I generally don't get long life from them - maybe a couple of years tops (I do have a few that are over two years old).

Generally it is not the "hard water" that is the problem as many often suspect based on lower GH after RO use, rather other toxins and mineral imbalances that are changed by use of RO and re-introduction of optimum minerals whether it be Replenish, WS, or many other products for this purpose.
This is partly how some to the myths about GH have gotten started, but in controlled tests where RO or DI water is used, then the GH is brought back up to the same ppM as the well or tap water, the problems ceased, thus proving the GH was not the problem.

References:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#gh
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/
www.fish-as-pets.com/2014/10/common-aquarium-keeping-myths.html

Carl

[Deleted]

Posted by Carl:

>>Generally it is not the "hard water" that is the problem as many often suspect based on lower GH after RO use, rather other toxins and mineral imbalances that are changed by use of RO and re-introduction of optimum minerals whether it be Replenish, WS, or many other products for this purpose.

>>www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.html

Thanks Carl!

Next water change...I won't add any salt to the RO water. All good to know. And yes, you guessed right, I did read the page, but it is good to post for others who may have missed it.

I will let all know at a later date if I get longer life with my tetras. Since those fish are much less expensive, I never "worried" about their shorter life span in my aquariums....but it would be nice for them to stick around a little longer.

Cheers,

Judy