Disease? Please share what you think.

[devonjohnsgard]

So, I've been watching my tank for a while now and have noticed a couple of things that concerned me a little. I'm not sure if its some type of disease, so I wanted to share with the forum to see what you think.

Here's two set of pictures and I'm wondering if they are related. One is of the Angel and one I'm not sure who it came from. Both is the detritus of the fish...Sorry guys for having to have you look at my fishes crap . Please let me know what you think.





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Thanks gang

[devonjohnsgard]

No love

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2014 16:12:17 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

No love

Aw no, tons o' love Sherlock! Just no answers  

First off, let me say that's the kind of post that really should start with 'the following contains graphic images and may be disturbing to some. Viewer discretion advised'.  

Such a beautiful tank, though!!!! That's the black angel who had the white spot that then disappeared, isn't it. So maybe a bit more to it after all. I saw white poop just like he's presenting in my red betta. It was early on (when the only real sign was just one little white plaque by his pectoral fin, but he also looked a bit full and so I did the fasting and feeding peas routine. I first thought it was white because no food present but after some searching, it seems like it can be a sign of simple stress, or signal bigger trouble due to bacteria or parasites, depending on whether that's the only symptom or if it's one of a number of symptoms.  With mine, we wound up treating him for what was thought to be columnaris/saprolegnia, so in hindsight perhaps a connection there.

Best I could find is this reference in one of.. you guessed it.. Carl's articles: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html

Under the section on Nematodes... "White feces can also be an identification tool, however this can be misleading as to a true Nematode (worm) infestation, as long thin white feces is just as often an indicator of a bacterial infection; generally Aeromonas.
This can also be an indicator of a combination bacterial (again Aeromonas) and protozoan Flagellate infection, usually Hexamita."

Sorry, I know it's a bit vague, but maybe a start anyway.. and maybe the author himself will stop by and round out the picture.

[devonjohnsgard]

Sept 19, 2014 17:05:45 GMT -5 @seapetal111 said:

Sept 19, 2014 16:12:17 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

No love

Aw no, tons o' love Sherlock! Just no answers  

First off, let me say that's the kind of post that really should start with 'the following contains graphic images and may be disturbing to some. Viewer discretion advised'.  

Such a beautiful tank, though!!!! That's the black angel who had the white spot that then disappeared, isn't it. So maybe a bit more to it after all. I saw white poop just like he's presenting in my red betta. It was early on (when the only real sign was just one little white plaque by his pectoral fin, but he also looked a bit full and so I did the fasting and feeding peas routine. I first thought it was white because no food present but after some searching, it seems like it can be a sign of simple stress, or signal bigger trouble due to bacteria or parasites, depending on whether that's the only symptom or if it's one of a number of symptoms.  With mine, we wound up treating him for what was thought to be columnaris/saprolegnia, so in hindsight perhaps a connection there.

Best I could find is this reference in one of.. you guessed it.. Carl's articles: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html

Under the section on Nematodes... "White feces can also be an identification tool, however this can be misleading as to a true Nematode (worm) infestation, as long thin white feces is just as often an indicator of a bacterial infection; generally Aeromonas.
This can also be an indicator of a combination bacterial (again Aeromonas) and protozoan Flagellate infection, usually Hexamita."

Sorry, I know it's a bit vague, but maybe a start anyway.. and maybe the author himself will stop by and round out the picture.

First, I know right. I tried to not be gross and even held off for a while before posting these pictures, because I knew it was a little messed up.

Next, thanks for the "love" aka, some input.

Thank you for your time digging out some answer to what this can be. I did have some idea that it might be Aeromonas...based on what I know, but I thought this one was worth the groups input. Even though gross.

This was the same angle with the "white mold"... So there is some infection happening.

I believe I going to start with Metron. soaked food. As per Carl's article. The one you provided. It's the best bet. I guess I just wanted a little confirmation on what I thought I knew. Thank you again.

Have a nice weekend Maggie!

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2014 18:47:52 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

I believe I going to start with Metron. soaked food. As per Carl's article. The one you provided. It's the best bet. I guess I just wanted a little confirmation on what I thought I knew. Thank you again.

Thanks Devon!  Actually, as gross as it is, I think it's a great post because a lot of people have seen weirdness in poop and just overlooked it in the absence of other 'symptoms', and so we need to be more aware of this as a symptom by itself, and what it means. Dirty job, but somebody had to, as they say.. so thanks for manning up to it

I was thinking that loooooooong stringy business had come from a different fish, but looking back at your video but couldn't tell. So it that from the same black angelfish?   (I was sure I just saw a post on here about that same thing, but can't find it now and I was reading back, could've been an older post).  

Any other fish affected? If not, is that a clue?  

I guess with these things there are just so many contributing factors,but reading about in Carl's articles the tank conditions that promote Aeromonas really don't seem to describe your tank at all.  but when (as I imagine you are) doing so many things so well you just wouldn't think you should have to deal with such things. 


I've got no experience with Aeromonas and perhaps you have and have treated successfully before with Metronidazole, so then I'd say run with it!!!!  it just kinda tripped me up for a couple reasons:

1) in Cheri's post WHAT'S EATING AT BETTA'S, Carl suspected Aeromonas, but this was his suggestion (at least to start with):

"Assuming Aeromonas,.. I would consider a swab of Methylene Blue or Hydrogen Peroxide directly on this area of infection (Pimafix can also be swabbed on this area).  I would follow this with a bath containing Nitrofurazone (Furan 2), salt, & Methylene Blue. I would consider an in tank treatment of Furan 2 as well."

2)  Aeromonas is anaerobic and Metronidazole does go after that, but Aeromonas is gram negative while Metro treats mainly gram positive. bacteria. It sounds to me like it's mostly recommended for parasite problems...?

Check this out...API's page on Metronidazole and it's use, saying Metronidazole's primary use is for the treatment of ANAEROBIC gram positive & SOME negative bacteria:
www.aquarium-medications.com/2012/07/metronidazole-by-seachem-api-more.html


Carl talks about it for nematode treatment (same article I referred to before): 
Metronidazole is a mild treatment, but it can be even more effective when combined with SeaChem ParaGuard or used as a medicated food soak
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/03/trematodes-and-nematodes-in-fish.html

But then does also refer to the white feces:
Combinations such as the above mentioned Jungle Parasite Guard that have Metronidazole as an ingredient as this medication is often effective for secondary bacterial infections such as Aeromonas and even better for possible Hexamita infestations of the gut, as witnessed in a white feces diagnosis where the aquarist is unsure of whether this is a worm or Aeromonas/Hexamita infection.

From:  
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Vibrio_Aeromonas.html#aeromonas

(under TREATMENTS FOR AEROMONAS):
Pimafix AND Melafix for mild infections, especially mild wound infections (Melafix by itself is rarely effective on Aeromonas though).
Nitrofurazone for more serious infections (this can be combined with Kanamycin for an even stronger combination treatment). Neomycin is an excellent antibiotic when mixed with food that delivers medications internally to infections (although this is primarily a gram positive antibiotic, it is anaerobic in activity and it should be combined with a gram negative antibiotic such as Kanamycin for better results).


(then, under the FISH BATHS link):
Methylene Blue is the better choice for internal manifestations of this bacterial pathogen such as Swim Bladder, intestinal, Dropsy or Pop-Eye due to its effectiveness in tissue penetration.
In fact in Swim Bladder and intestinal Aeromonas infection, the MB Bath (along with possibly 1-2 teaspoons of salt and ¼ teaspoon of Epsom salt per gallon of bath water) followed by changes in water in the main aquarium, changing diet and/or withholding food for 2 days (dry foods should be soaked for 5 minutes prior to feeding), establishing a GH level of at least 100 ppm (for positive Calcium, Magnesium mineral ions) and 1 tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons may be all that is necessary for treatment.
If this does not remedy the problem then treatment with medications such as Kanamycin and foods soaked in Neomycin such as SeaChem Neoplex.

So basically I'm just wondering if Metro is the the most direct thing? or maybe it's not all that's needed?

Like I said you may have dealt with this before and that would be the best thing to go by, but if not then maybe there's some value in these things...  whatever you decide, good luck and keep us posted!

[devonjohnsgard]

Thanks for your time with your post!

I thought it would be kinda educational too. I've haven't personally seen this yet, so I wanted to see what others thought.

I do think the long "business" is from another fish too. It was before what I see from the Angel. The Angel just has this same thing going on often. The long business was just one time. I thought maybe even the pleco.

I think the problem is the substrate I'm using. I didn't really rinse it before I used it and it came from a friends tank. It was even a little wet still even though it had been sitting for some time. This was my laziness. I just know this disease comes about from cleaning the sub.

Since this doesn't seem like a extreme case, I'm going to start with the food soak and then if I need to, follow the directions you pulled out from Carl's articles. Thanks for digging those out for me. It's just another learning experience for me.

I'll let Carl know he is welcome to my picture for his articles. Maybe they will help someone else too.

Thanks. Big help

[Deleted]

That substrate does sound suspect. When I had that concern Carl suspected saprolegnia and suggested fungus cure. I didn't and still don't have fish in it so never got to witness any weird 'business' with them. Also don't totally know it's ok yet either. Those pics are definitely good text book material lol Hopefully your approach will work and you won't have to treat the whole tank.

[goldenpuon]

Seapetal111, first thanks for all the time you spent helping! Here's some more love... input! Unfortunately, I can't say for sure I know what it is. I have heard of red or white fish waste being things like parasites, constipation, and/or liver failure? (I am not super sure of the liver failure possibility) I admit I am not the most reliable in terms of judging it as I have rarely if ever had fish with an actual confirmed parasitic infection. I used to have a goldfish named Foeneme that had a lot of stringy, white waste. The fish started to lose weight over the years (likely from advanced age and poor genetics). However, Foneme was in a tank with other goldfish for years that never came down with symptoms and the Jungle Anti-Parasite food and Neomycin I gave the fish on several occasions never made any difference. I guess the what I'm saying is if it clears up on its own, not to worry.

However, based on what I read in Aquarium Medications and what Carl has said to me in the past regarding my own fish's issues, if you don't know what it is and decide to treat, that a Neomycin or metronidazole would be good choices.

How long has this been going on? Yous said you had been holding the pictures a while.

Best of luck with your fish and sorry I couldn't be of more help. Keep us posted.

NOTE: I was unable to view the video since my computer froze due to a QuickTtime error whenever I tried to view it.

Renee

[Deleted]

Oh! Just realized you added a video here and I'd wanted to do that before but didn't think it was possible. May I ask how you do that? You are Sherlock, after all

[parker002]

Renee made a quality suggestion - metronidazole. It's not only bactericidal but it's also good for treating intestinal parasites. Soak some food in metro and feed it to them for a few days, see if it clear up. It's also possible they just need some fiber, feed them some shelled peas.

[devonjohnsgard]

Great suggestions guys. Thanks! I going to start with the Metron. soak and look into the Fungus Cure. She if I'm at this point or not. I'll also look into the peas. Thanks again!

For the video. It's through Blogger. Upload to a Blogger website I have and then copy and paste the URL. It makes a quick snip of the video and plays it on it's own. I think Blogger takes a lager video and compresses it. Kinda nice not having to put everything on YouTube.

[Carl]

You can also add Kanaplex to the feed soak to add more gram negative anti-bacterial properties in case of Aeromonas

Product Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#kanaplex

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

I'll do the Kanaplex soak first. Thanks Carl

[Carl]

Sept 22, 2014 17:45:30 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

I'll do the Kanaplex soak first. Thanks Carl

To clarify, I meant to combine the Metronidazole with the Kanaplex in the food soak.

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Sept 22, 2014 19:55:09 GMT -5 Carl said:

Sept 22, 2014 17:45:30 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

I'll do the Kanaplex soak first. Thanks Carl

To clarify, I meant to combine the Metronidazole with the Kanaplex in the food soak.

Carl

Thanks Carl. That's what I'll do.

[Deleted]

Sept 23, 2014 10:05:44 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

Sept 22, 2014 19:55:09 GMT -5 Carl said:

To clarify, I meant to combine the Metronidazole with the Kanaplex in the food soak.

Carl

Thanks Carl. That's what I'll do.

How's it going with this Devon, any improvement ?

[devonjohnsgard]

Sept 28, 2014 0:17:06 GMT -5 @seapetal111 said:

How's it going with this Devon, any improvement ?

I've been holding off, just because I want to wait to see what happens...and because I've been a little busy. The fish are very active and seem happy, that's why I haven't been in a hurry.

Thanks for asking. I'll keep you posted.

[Carl]

Sept 29, 2014 18:10:31 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

Sept 28, 2014 0:17:06 GMT -5 @seapetal111 said:

How's it going with this Devon, any improvement ?

I've been holding off, just because I want to wait to see what happens...and because I've been a little busy. The fish are very active and seem happy, that's why I haven't been in a hurry.

Thanks for asking. I'll keep you posted.

If water parameters are good, generally this is a wise strategy

Carl

[devonjohnsgard]

Update if anyone is interested.

I've been holding off for treatment, just to watch to see if it's getting better or worst, and also to think about what the best course of action could be.

What I've seen is that the infection is staying about the same. There has never been a long string of detritus like there was in the picture above. What I've noticed is still the same fish having white detritus and it will just hand out of them for some time before they pass it.

I decided to go with the medicated food method. This was my first attempt, but I was trying to figure out how to go about it. I followed the directions on the back of the meds now how to make the food.
I soaked about a tbsp. of Paradigm fish food in water, make a paste, then added a scoop of both Kanaplex and Metron. I then froze the food. This made a frozen food paste.

I think I did this right and I'm excited about the treatment. The only unusual thing I've came across is feeding the paste to the fish. They are used to dried foods (me too). Feeding them a paste throw them all for a loop.

Does anyone have any experience with this. Suggestions? I'm going to feed the paste for three days.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions! I'm also going to get a hold of some peas. This will be new for my fish too. The trick was making sure the medicated paste was getting to the infected fish. Could be all of them, but I know the Angel for sure.

Here is a picture of how the food came out.


Thanks again everyone

[Carl]

I think I did this right and I'm excited about the treatment. The only unusual thing I've came across is feeding the paste to the fish. They are used to dried foods (me too). Feeding them a paste throw them all for a loop.

The key question is, did the fish in the end eat the frozen (thawed) food?

If not, I would allow the food to warm in a small amount of water for about 5-10 minutes.
Keep in mind that the medication subtracts from the palatability too

Carl