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Post by Carl on Aug 27, 2014 12:00:58 GMT -5
This is a very important point that Parker made and one my observations over the years can back up. While I have never performed any controlled studies (where would you start?), I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that "too much care" can be as detrimental as not enough care From my "Aquarium Disease Prevention" article (Too Much Care section): "Worrying too much about every water parameter or "over testing". My statistics based on clients, emails, forums, etc. is that these fish keepers have a much higher incidence of aquarium or pond problems. As a couple of examples; I have noted that persons who test constantly, then worry as to whether an ammonia level varies between .10 or .25 is going to kill their fish (neither of which are dangerous numbers by themsleves), or worry about a perceived high GH when this is not a factor unless very high (over 500 ppm) or very low (under 100 ppm for most fish)."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#overcareCarl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 27, 2014 16:43:39 GMT -5
+1^^ Both these guys. It's kinda hard to know why there is fluctuation in the pH, since it's effected by a few different things. I've even seen people use high tech probs that recorded pH day and night. One person did this and took all suggestions I and others had about stabilizing pH, and afterwards, there was still some play in the pH. Less, but still some. It's just another reason to not worry about pH too much, but investigate when there are swings. Then check a few parameters that might have some role in the swing. KH, Light, Oxy... We do the best we can, so no need to stress it. Once I got my whole tank on a schedule, lighting, filtration, oxygen...my pH rarely is different when I check it. Like bi-weekly. If there are other adjustments being done to the tank, pH will swing, but you can't worry about it. Just know what affects what... I'm glad these guys stepped in and gave us another prospective. thanks guys. and I think your on the right track Maggie.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 17:12:48 GMT -5
These test are not intended for exacting scientific measurement, but are more than adequate for aquarium or pond fish husbandry. Raising KH without raising pH can depend upon many variables including acid production in your aquarium. Photosynthesis will increase pH during the day while bio production will lower pH. Knowing if you have a sufficient GH is a grey area from my experience, but keeping an adequate GH (100- 400) along with regular infusions (even if small) of Replenish or Wonder Shells will generally insure this Many products that affect GH such as Wonder Shells or Replenish have little or no affect on KH. As your tank cycles, this will naturally use up any available KH reserves Carl
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 21:52:14 GMT -5
These test are not intended for exacting scientific measurement, but are more than adequate for aquarium or pond fish husbandry. Okay, gotcha. I guess you look at these numbers and perhaps they don't represent significant differences to you, but you see I don't have that understanding of the numbers just yet. The reason I bought the tests was to start learning about the various aspects. All I've done so far is do some tests and track some changes and read and try to understand what the results mean, and therefore how things work. So now I understand not to expect too much precision from the tests.
Raising KH without raising pH can depend upon many variables including acid production in your aquarium. Photosynthesis will increase pH during the day while bio production will lower pH. Thanks, I'll look into these more as I'm trying to understand KH/buffers and related factors better.
Knowing if you have a sufficient GH is a grey area from my experience, but keeping an adequate GH (100- 400) along with regular infusions (even if small) of Replenish or Wonder Shells will generally insure this So then the key thing I think is to be sure to top it up regularly to ensure the presence of active cations.
Many products that affect GH such as Wonder Shells or Replenish have little or no affect on KH. Yes, understood.
As your tank cycles, this will naturally use up any available KH reserves. Ah, ok.. which I believe is replenished through a water change or actively adding carbonates...? Re my comment about the KH .. what I should have asked was IF <50 is considered very low and indicates a lack of stability and perhaps the reason behind the shifts in PH I seem to have been seeing.. in which case is it something I need to address
Carl Very helpful, thanks
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 22:34:57 GMT -5
I hear ya on the relaxing about it. I know I was happier before I started all this lol. But I would like to understand what's going on, I mean, how can I fix something if I don't something if I don't even know if its broke? That was kind of my point behind asking if your fish or plants are showing signs of distress. Maybe it's NOT BROKEN. In all seriousness, I really meant what I said about my fish being healthier and happier. By chasing water parameters and messing with stuff, you might be stressing your fish. It might be better to just let things sit for a few days and then test again. See if things normalize. Thanks again Parker002!I want you to know I took your comments to heart and I do appreciate the value of not being "OCD" and chasing parameters/messing with stuff all the time etc.. I wasn't taking it lightly at all. I think my way of phrasing things at times has given the impression that I've been very busy doing just what you're describing and that in fact is not the case. Really sorry and I don't mean to mislead. In my comment (quoted) above, I wasn't panicking to fix anything, it was more of a 'I just want to understand things because otherwise how can I do things well, also understand whether something's wrong and know what to do about it'. I guess what I'm aware of that you all are not, is that all I'm doing is trying to learn and understand water chemistry. To improve my knowledge. Yes, along with that know if my tanks are functioning well and if not then how to improve. All I've been doing is reading and asking questions. With the exception of starting to gradually introduce some Replenish to the tank, I have not changed one thing in my tank or with my routine.. my fish don't even know I'm talking to you guys ... my whole thing has been to gain knowledge so as NOT to be doing what you describe. When I said I know I was happier before all this .. I meant before all this trying to understand water chemistry, because I was blissfully ignorant before and now my brain hurts (it's challenging for me, I blame it on my artist type right-brain noggin).. I've had tanks on and off for @ 8 years but pretty much ran with a some basics taught be friends at the onset.. and did not too badly, but I want to progress now. When things HAVE gone wrong, I'e been baffled and I don't like that. My goal when I (hopefully soon) move to a larger tank or two, is to have quite a natural and lower maintenance set-up. I don't even want to get into CO2 etc because (as I understand it at this point anyway) I do not want to have to be monitoring/adjusting anything daily at all. But whatever I do I want to do with understanding. So I completely appreciate your comments and will always welcome input. Thanks again
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 22:55:00 GMT -5
This is a very important point that Parker made and one my observations over the years can back up. While I have never performed any controlled studies (where would you start?), I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support that "too much care" can be as detrimental as not enough care From my "Aquarium Disease Prevention" article (Too Much Care section): "Worrying too much about every water parameter or "over testing". My statistics based on clients, emails, forums, etc. is that these fish keepers have a much higher incidence of aquarium or pond problems. As a couple of examples; I have noted that persons who test constantly, then worry as to whether an ammonia level varies between .10 or .25 is going to kill their fish (neither of which are dangerous numbers by themsleves), or worry about a perceived high GH when this is not a factor unless very high (over 500 ppm) or very low (under 100 ppm for most fish)."
Yes, understood. And isn't the key to not becoming that person and to avoiding reacting to (false) perceptions all a matter of..knowledge?. I've actually learned the "too much care' lesson myself the hard way as I know many of us have.. and that is something I want to avoid going forward, which is why I have been spending a lot of time reading and trying to learn.. and that's all I have been doing.. but please read my response to Parker as I explained it there. I think your articles are fantastic and I think I've now read.. and reread most. If it doesn't seem so, it's probably that I'm still 'connecting the dots' and there's a lot to remember, but I was beyond glad to find such a wealth of reliable information.. especially online, and am very appreciative of your expertise and your willingness to share it so openly. Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.html#overcareCarl Thanks again!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2014 23:05:05 GMT -5
+1^^ Both these guys. It's kinda hard to know why there is fluctuation in the pH, since it's effected by a few different things. I've even seen people use high tech probs that recorded pH day and night. One person did this and took all suggestions I and others had about stabilizing pH, and afterwards, there was still some play in the pH. Less, but still some. It's just another reason to not worry about pH too much, but investigate when there are swings. Then check a few parameters that might have some role in the swing. KH, Light, Oxy... We do the best we can, so no need to stress it. Thanks Devon Actually not stressing.. am I too dramatic? lol Ok, the weird conflicts in results and non-responses with some tests had me goin' .. but I'm good now lol.Once I got my whole tank on a schedule, lighting, filtration, oxygen...my pH rarely is different when I check it. Like bi-weekly. If there are other adjustments being done to the tank, pH will swing, but you can't worry about it. Just know what affects what... See, that's the ticket right there.. knowing what 'normal' looks like. Until then you don't really know if something's off, right. So that's where I'm at, just observing what's what.. and what comes across as me panicking, well.. just me asking if this or that seems normal. This is just a puny 10G.. I'm thinking these swings may be it's normal.. and maybe what the girl needs to do is... you know it.. get a bigger tank!!!! HeheeeeeI'm glad these guys stepped in and gave us another prospective. thanks guys. and I think your on the right track Maggie. Yep Thanks Devon!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 28, 2014 9:21:16 GMT -5
I think you are doing what I would do. You are seeing some abnormal things and you are trying to understand them. I don't think there is anything wrong with that. And, there has been a few things that needed to be hammered out, so unless you were able to get some answers to your questions, that would have never happened. You should have been able to figure out how not to have Ammonia and Nitrites. How to check pH and how to adjust with KH and know some good stuff about mineralization (GH). That covers a good base for successful fish keeping. You even learned some good stuff about water conditioners too... You'll be able to teach your friends after this is all said an done. Once you get your tank on a schedule and know what is "normal" there wont be too much to worry about. I can say, helping you help me make sure I knew my stuff. So it was good learning for me too.
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Post by Carl on Aug 28, 2014 12:12:12 GMT -5
Your clarification does raise a good point; that is ANY KH under 50 ppm (or 3dKH) is going to be a less stable environment, which includes more shifts in pH. Here is a point related (but not exact ) to your question/point of clarification from my Chemistry article: "Know your aquarium: As an example, if your KH is low (under 50 ppm) in say a Discus aquarium yet with little acid buffering; when you seek to bring up your aquarium KH for more stability, you can immediately "bounce" your pH. Acid buffering can be from natural sources, but whether natural or added chemically, if low when you make even small changes to your KH it can move a pH. So do NOT chase your pH, find a pH that you can keep stable with the minimum KH and stick with it, whether it be 6.8 or 7.3 (as examples).Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#khSo I am not saying is testing is not a good thing, otherwise how would you "know your aquarium", however my point and Parkers is to not over correct or stress the details too much. As an example of my use of test kits from my aquarium maintenance days: I would test each clients in most visits and keep a record, but since I could not be there every day in most instances with the exception of one client with over 100 aquariums where we were there everyday, I adjusted aquariums based on a much more gradual graph of water parameters. What is interesting is with the one client I was at everyday, a few aquariums I checked daily or even more than once during the day; the results was a more spiked graph than the aquariums that were checked once per week. Regards; Carl
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Post by parker002 on Aug 28, 2014 16:05:36 GMT -5
I want you to know I took your comments to heart and I do appreciate the value of not being "OCD" and chasing parameters/messing with stuff all the time etc.. As someone who actually suffers from OCD, I appreciate this.
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