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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 17:39:50 GMT -5
This is on a 10G... well-established (4 yrs)... moderately planted... no CO2... AquaClear 50 filter... housing 4 cardinal and 8 rummy-nose tetras. Tap water gassed out, and this tank + other small betta tanks have tested with a PH of 7.8 consistently for @ 6 wks (just started testing). The only intentional changes made recently are 1) added a medium sized piece of driftwood, and 2) started introducing REPLENISH over the past 2 wks (partial doses). I'm still learning about GH, KH, PH and how they affect each other, so was proceeding cautiously. I expected to see if anything an increase in GH, but not this... so I don't understand and need some advice on what to do! Here's a quick summary: -testing done with API liquid test kit SAT JULY 19: COMPLETED 5-DAY BLACKOUT TO TREAT CYANOBACTERIA. TESTS: PH=7.8 (Ammo: 0.0 Nitrites: 0.0 Nitrates: 20-30) WC: 35% + Prime (new water) FRI JULY 25: TESTS: Nitrates: 30 WC: 30% + Prime (in new water) THU JULY 31: TEST: PH=8.0 WC: 30% + Prime (new water) NEW: Added 1 piece driftwood @ 7" x 4" THU AUG 7: TEST: PH=7.8FRI AUG 8: NEW: Added REPLENISH for first time: 1/4 tsp in 10G (1/4 full dose) * I think I did a WC here likely 25% and just didn't record it.. not sure TUE AUG 12: NEW: Added REPLENISH: 1/8 tsp for 'in between changes dose' (1/8 full dose) SAT AUG 16: TESTS: PH: 7.2 Nitrites :0.0 Nitrates: 30 (TEST STRIPS): GH: 180 / KH: 120 / PH: 7.0 / Nitrites: 5.0 / Nitrates: 30 WC: 25% + Prime (new water) NEW: Added REPLENISH: 3/8 tsp (3/8 full dose) TUE AUG 19: TESTS: PH: 8.2 Added PH Alert tag and it confirms PH: 8.2 I really don't understand what if any sort of 'emergency' this indicates, but I'm aging some fresh water just in case I need to do a WC to bring it down... guessing the answer is in the realm of buffers.. or lack of, I also have some Pillow Moss on hand but hadn't used yet, if that's what is needed..but waiting for advice before I do anything... Pic below of the tank... you can see the PH alert tag maxing out! (shows bkgd paper with plants/wood ie these aren't real) Very grateful for all input... thanks all! seapetal111/ Maggie Attachments:
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 19, 2014 18:03:03 GMT -5
This is on a 10G... well-established (4 yrs)... moderately planted... no CO2... AquaClear 50 filter... housing 4 cardinal and 8 rummy-nose tetras. Tap water gassed out, and this tank + other small betta tanks have tested with a PH of 7.8 consistently for @ 6 wks (just started testing). The only intentional changes made recently are 1) added a medium sized piece of driftwood, and 2) started introducing REPLENISH over the past 2 wks (partial doses). I'm still learning about GH, KH, PH and how they affect each other, so was proceeding cautiously. I expected to see if anything an increase in GH, but not this... so I don't understand and need some advice on what to do! Here's a quick summary: -testing done with API liquid test kit SAT JULY 19: COMPLETED 5-DAY BLACKOUT TO TREAT CYANOBACTERIA. TESTS: PH=7.8 (Ammo: 0.0 Nitrites: 0.0 Nitrates: 20-30) WC: 35% + Prime (new water) FRI JULY 25: TESTS: Nitrates: 30 WC: 30% + Prime (in new water) THU JULY 31: TEST: PH=8.0 WC: 30% + Prime (new water) NEW: Added 1 piece driftwood @ 7" x 4" THU AUG 7: TEST: PH=7.8 FRI AUG 8: NEW: Added REPLENISH for first time: 1/4 tsp in 10G (1/4 full dose) * I think I did a WC here likely 25% and just didn't record it.. not sure TUE AUG 12: NEW: Added REPLENISH: 1/8 tsp for 'in between changes dose' (1/8 full dose) SAT AUG 16: TESTS: PH: 7.2 Nitrites :0.0 Nitrates: 30 (TEST STRIPS): GH: 180 / KH: 120 / PH: 7.0 / Nitrites: 5.0 / Nitrates: 30 WC: 25% + Prime (new water) NEW: Added REPLENISH: 3/8 tsp (3/8 full dose) TUES AUG 19: TESTS: PH: 8.2 Added PH Alert tag and it confirms PH: 8.2 I really don't understand what if any sort of 'emergency' this indicates, but I'm aging some fresh water just in case I need to do a WC to bring it down... guessing the answer is in the realm of buffers.. or lack of, I also have some Pillow Moss on hand but hadn't used yet, if that's what is needed..but waiting for advice before I do anything... Pic below of the tank... you can see the PH alert tag maxing out! (shows bkgd paper with plants/wood ie these aren't real) Very grateful for all input... thanks all! seapetal111/ Maggie While I can't say for sure what raised your pH, there are reasons why it would raise quickly, like gassing out. It's looks like it should be 7.8 once it's gassed out. I would suggest using Prime in this case, cause once a pH is above 8.0, it starts to convert the non-toxic ammonia back into toxic ammonia. This is why the Nitrites when up as well. You could use an acid buffer, but the driftwood should be doing this for you. This is another reason I don't understand why the pH when up. This article talks about other things you can do to bring the pH back down, but if this isn't the normal water parameters, I wondering if you should just ride it out after using some prime and keep checking. I do know that a .2 change is pH is not a horrible, .4 is a little more of a concern. The article also talks about once a piece of driftwood is added, there is be a while where the pH balances out, but will remain high at first. " Please note that Natural Buffers such as Peat, Driftwood, Pillow Moss, etc. generally lower pH via a slow release of acids such as Tannins.
If your carbonates are high (KH) your pH will remain high until a slow balance is reached (please read more about this in the Amazon River Water section).
To reach an acid/carbonate balance more quickly, products such as SeaChem’s Acid Buffer can be used." www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#phCarbon can have a role in it as well, but it looks like you are not using carbon. Use prime, take a look at the article and test over some time... Best I got. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 18:52:41 GMT -5
While I can't say for sure what raised your pH, there are reasons why it would raise quickly, like gassing out. It's looks like it should be 7.8 once it's gassed out. Yes, my fresh tap water is 7.4 and it gasses out to 7.8
I would suggest using Prime in this case, cause once a pH is above 8.0, it starts to convert the non-toxic ammonia back into toxic ammonia.
I know ammonia converts to ammonium at lower ph levels, so this would be the flip-side. Good thinking! Just added an ammonia alert tag, also tested and it's 0.0 for now... will watch. (scared to add Prime until there are elevated levels showing up in case it over-reduces).
This is why the Nitrites when up as well. The liquid test said Nitrites 0.0, just the test strips indicated 5.0.. IF I read it right. (I do find it hard to read these as the colours are so darn pale on a couple of the tests, nitrites included). Often get a bigger difference between liquid and strip tests so I tend to trust the liquid.
A couple other possible factors for that lately.. started feeding bloodworms occasionally.. bit messy... and also stole @ 1/3 filter sponge for betta tanks.
You could use an acid buffer, but the driftwood should be doing this for you. This is another reason I don't understand why the pH when up.
The driftwood, not a 'new' piece.. was in use for a good while previously.. I don't know if tannins get 'used up'? I've never heard that, , though it certainly is NOT tinging the water .. at all. I've never tracked the driftwood's effect, that's why I"m doing so this time.
I'd figured the driftwood was responsible for the shift down from 8.0 to 7.8.. then to 7.2.. but now this jump up, confusing..
This article talks about other things you can do to bring the pH back down, but if this isn't the normal water parameters, I wondering if you should just ride it out after using some prime and keep checking. I do know that a .2 change is pH is not a horrible, .4 is a little more of a concern. Is it only a .2 shift? I just highlighted the PH values in original post so it's easier to follow the progression.. PH was 7.2 three days ago.
The article also talks about once a piece of driftwood is added, there is be a while where the pH balances out, but will remain high at first. "Please note that Natural Buffers such as Peat, Driftwood, Pillow Moss, etc. generally lower pH via a slow release of acids such as Tannins. If your carbonates are high (KH) your pH will remain high until a slow balance is reached (please read more about this in the Amazon River Water section). Held back on adding the pillow moss having just added the driftwood + replenish (though I don't believe it's a factor). My thinking being too many changes and you don't know what's doin' what..
... but wondering now (if the tannins in the wood could be depleted) perhaps it would be better to go ahead and add a small piece of pillow moss, even removing the driftwood so as not to overdo it?
To reach an acid/carbonate balance more quickly, products such as SeaChem’s Acid Buffer can be used." www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#phCarbon can have a role in it as well, but it looks like you are not using carbon. No carbon.
Use prime, take a look at the article and test over some time... Best I got. Thanks a million Devon, I'm taking your advice.
Maggie
UPDATE: Now almost 24 hours later, daytime reading of PH at 7.8 (although alert tag still reading higher). I'm wondering if these shifts can be related to GH/PH stability during photosynthesis as the tank is planted (have not added fert tabs in a few months). The drop to 7.2 is still weird though...
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 20, 2014 17:32:55 GMT -5
I know ammonia converts to ammonium at lower ph levels, so this would be the flip-side. Good thinking! Just added an ammonia alert tag, also tested and it's 0.0 for now... will watch. (scared to add Prime until there are elevated levels showing up in case it over-reduces). The liquid test said Nitrites 0.0, just the test strips indicated 5.0.. IF I read it right. (I do find it hard to read these as the colours are so darn pale on a couple of the tests, nitrites included). Often get a bigger difference between liquid and strip tests so I tend to trust the liquid.
Sounds fine to hold off. I was just concerned about the Nitrites, but it looks like the liquid test is a little more accurate. I've heard this from other aquarium keepers too. I've always had good success with the test strips, but I'm not focus on taking weekly measurements. I do maybe once in month when I do a water change and they've always been kinda in a zone. A couple other possible factors for that lately.. started feeding bloodworms occasionally.. bit messy... and also stole @ 1/3 filter sponge for betta tanks.
I'm not sure how this could effect the pH. The driftwood, not a 'new' piece.. was in use for a good while previously.. I don't know if tannins get 'used up'? I've never heard that, , though it certainly is NOT tinging the water .. at all. I've never tracked the driftwood's effect, that's why I"m doing so this time.
I'd figured the driftwood was responsible for the shift down from 8.0 to 7.8.. then to 7.2.. but now this jump up, confusing..
It could depend on what kind of driftwood it is. Others release more tannins than others. I guess maybe a long period of use would work all the tannis out, but I don't how long that would be. There would be a slight yellowing of the water when added to the tank. Things like Carbon or Purigen would remove this, but you're not using any of that. I would still wait and see how the water settles and then determine if you need to add more buffer. Is it only a .2 shift? I just highlighted the PH values in original post so it's easier to follow the progression.. PH was 7.2 three days ago.
A 7.2 to 7.4 would be a .2 shift. This was a large enough swing to be concerned. Held back on adding the pillow moss having just added the driftwood + replenish (though I don't believe it's a factor). My thinking being too many changes and you don't know what's doin' what..
... but wondering now (if the tannins in the wood could be depleted) perhaps it would be better to go ahead and add a small piece of pillow moss, even removing the driftwood so as not to overdo it?
I would try another natural buffer if the pH keeps going back up. If it settles at something in the 7 range, it would be good. Only add more buffer if it trends up. UPDATE: Now almost 24 hours later, daytime reading of PH at 7.8 (although alert tag still reading higher). I'm wondering if these shifts can be related to GH/PH stability during photosynthesis as the tank is planted (have not added fert tabs in a few months). The drop to 7.2 is still weird though... You might be on to something. " Many planted aquarium keepers, often run air stones at night to equalize oxygen and COs since plants cease production of O2, HOWEVER it is worthy of note that an air stone can drive off enough CO2, that the pH can climb considerably at night.
So it is important to test pH evening and morning and adjust your air stone accordingly to prevent to drastic a pH swing.
BTW, the reason for this is CO2 in the water can produce carbonic acid, that will naturally lower pH, but when driven off by nightly increases in aeration, this can result in pH swings, generally in smaller aquaria." www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/" It should also be noted that GH DOES effect pH when photosynthesis is thrown into the equation" americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#ghplease see this article: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPlants.html#nutrientsSee if it settles once there is a consent dose of GH (replenish or wonder shell). Then you will know if you have to add a buffer. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 10:36:20 GMT -5
There would be a slight yellowing of the water when added to the tank. No yellow tinge whatsoever from this old wood. Well, it's purdy, anyway 
I would still wait and see how the water settles and then determine if you need to add more buffer. A 7.2 to 7.4 would be a .2 shift. This was a large enough swing to be concerned. Yes, big. (sorry, thought you were thinking it was only a .2 shift, perhaps if you missed a reading or 2 in original post).
UPDATE: Now almost 24 hours later, daytime reading of PH at 7.8 (although alert tag still reading higher). I'm wondering if these shifts can be related to GH/PH stability during photosynthesis as the tank is planted (have not added fert tabs in a few months). The drop to 7.2 is still weird though... You might be on to something. " Many planted aquarium keepers, often run air stones at night to equalize oxygen and COs since plants cease production of O2, HOWEVER it is worthy of note that an air stone can drive off enough CO2, that the pH can climb considerably at night.
So it is important to test pH evening and morning and adjust your air stone accordingly to prevent to drastic a pH swing.
BTW, the reason for this is CO2 in the water can produce carbonic acid, that will naturally lower pH, but when driven off by nightly increases in aeration, this can result in pH swings, generally in smaller aquaria." www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/Really hoping to keep it more simple if I can
" It should also be noted that GH DOES effect pH when photosynthesis is thrown into the equation" americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#ghplease see this article: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPlants.html#nutrientsYes! This is where I got that... sadly, not my own little stroke of brilliance
I would try another natural buffer if the pH keeps going back up. If it settles at something in the 7 range, it would be good. Only add more buffer if it trends up. See if it settles once there is a consent dose of GH (replenish or wonder shell). Then you will know if you have to add a buffer. This morning's reading was again 7.8. Need to test end of day now to see the shift morning to night. If it could actually balance out "in the 7 range" once I have more constant mineralization, I need to see and understand that too. Guess I need to buckle and finally order the Wonder Shells. (have been holding off because of all the expense lately and until I need more things to justify shipping costs to Canada.. ) However, I don't think it's possible with Replenish to achieve a constant enough level unless I drip, which I'm not attempting).. so it's time.
THEN as you say, I'll see if I need more buffer. Also I gather that's when it'll be safer to work with buffers to lower the PH gradually to a more desirable level for the tetras, maybe also bettas...
My question then is, once I have a tank running with a PH of perhaps 7.0 while my tap water is 7.4 aging to 7.8.. how do I do a water change with water that is heated and at the same PH? While it's only a 10G right now where it's easy enough to age and then heat a pail of water (so, up to 4G), that won't work for much larger tanks doing a change using a python. I haven't come across this topic in the articles. Do I have to use a PH adjuster somehow on the new water?
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Post by angelminx on Aug 21, 2014 15:54:52 GMT -5
That's the thing I hate about water changes, trying to get the right mix to keep the pH/KH where I want it AND get the correct temps.
I know a small difference in temps doesn't matter--especially when it's a larger tank with a small H2O change--but I have one of those kitchen faucets with one handle, so you can't adjust each knob till you get what you want. With mine (after waiting a little for the temp to adjust when 1st turning the water on), one small tap in either direction can cause either: no change, a small change, or a large change; then, do the same "size" tap to make another adjustment, and it can be a completely different result. The temps won't stay constant, either. I sure wish they'd come out with a faucet (affordable) that you can see the temp it's at with a digital display--or even better, one you can program.
Right now I have to use my QuickCheck pocket thermometer, and hold it under the flow/in the bucket to constantly monitor the new water. Once I get approximately what I want, I can put the bucket under the stream. Before I do this, I put my (measured amount) buffer into the bucket (divided between buckets if I need multiple buckets for a refill/top-off), then once the water is going in, I measure out my conditioners (Amquel Plus and NovAqua Plus right now, but Prime when I need to order more) and stir the water till the buffer has "disolved", then go back to monitering/adjusting the temperature. Not too big of a problem with a normal sized H2O change/top-off with the 10G, but when it comes to the 55G, I usually have to make 4-5 trips to the aquarium with water, and, thus go thru the whole proccess all over again. Ugh!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 21, 2014 16:18:55 GMT -5
This morning's reading was again 7.8. Need to test end of day now to see the shift morning to night. If it could actually balance out "in the 7 range" once I have more constant mineralization, I need to see and understand that too. Guess I need to buckle and finally order the Wonder Shells. (have been holding off because of all the expense lately and until I need more things to justify shipping costs to Canada.. ) However, I don't think it's possible with Replenish to achieve a constant enough level unless I drip, which I'm not attempting).. so it's time.
THEN as you say, I'll see if I need more buffer. Also I gather that's when it'll be safer to work with buffers to lower the PH gradually to a more desirable level for the tetras, maybe also bettas...
My question then is, once I have a tank running with a PH of perhaps 7.0 while my tap water is 7.4 aging to 7.8.. how do I do a water change with water that is heated and at the same PH? While it's only a 10G right now where it's easy enough to age and then heat a pail of water (so, up to 4G), that won't work for much larger tanks doing a change using a python. I haven't come across this topic in the articles. Do I have to use a PH adjuster somehow on the new water?
Here, Im not sure if you've seen this little article yet. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Bettas.htmlReminder too it's not necessary the excite pH you are looking for, but a stable pH because a consent level of KH. Something that settles in the mid 7s would be good. This article drive this home. When you are doing a water change, you would give out how much buffer to add in to keep that pH consent. This would come in time I believe. Temp is not a usual problem for me, because I have well water. I just get the temperature close, add my prime, and put the water in the tank. I would think if you could get the temperature to a warm room temp, it would be close enough to go into the tank. I'd say it only matters if there is a large difference. angelminx's way is pretty creative. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 22:01:18 GMT -5
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Bettas.htmlYes, I had thanks.. but reread it, a refresher is always good. Interesting that it says to use a half dose of wonder shell for bettas.
Reminder too it's not necessary the excite pH you are looking for, but a stable pH because a consent level of KH. Something that settles in the mid 7s would be good. This article drive this home. I do realize 'stable' is the priority, just thought that the 8 zone is a bit high.. maybe not, I've got a dozen little tetras looking pretty comfy in there.. I shall hold off on panicking until I get the minerals up to snuff and see where it levels out. Hopefully a little lower.
When you are doing a water change, you would give out how much buffer to add in to keep that pH consent. This would come in time I believe. Temp is not a usual problem for me, because I have well water. I just get the temperature close, add my prime, and put the water in the tank. I would think if you could get the temperature to a warm room temp, it would be close enough to go into the tank. I'd say it only matters if there is a large difference. angelminx's way is pretty creative. Yes, angelminx is very creative, but lugging 3-4 full buckets across a staircase and room all with new hardwood.. is just what I'm trying to avoid lol. Plus, there's only so much time in an evening and sometimes a girl has other fun things to do.. like laundry, dishes etc
So then adding a buffer to the new water will look after the PH difference. In that case, I'm adding the new water to the tank right away so the temperature and conditioner are not a problem.
You must mean a chemical buffer? And when I do get to the larger tank and want to use a python to refill the tank, can I add the buffer to the tank after the new water? Or would the difference in PH already shock the fish? If you CAN'T do that, what would you do?
UPDATE THE NEXT MORNING (Aug.22):
I have a dead rummy nose this morning. No signs, just dead. A young one, only 3.5 cm long. Only recent change is last night I added a new (rinsed) pre-filter sponge, but can't imagine that doing it. A bit disconcerting as I've never had random deaths like this before. I have a few 6 yr old rummy's and when they've gone, they've first grown older looking, but not this guy. I guess if it's related to the levels I'll have more before long.
Tracking PH levels in light of all the shifts. But what do I do with this?
API liquid tests: Reg. PH= 7.6 (exact match), High PH = <7.4 ? (lighter yellow than 7.4 sample), and Seachem PH Alert tag = 8.0
Greeeeaaaaat 
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Post by angelminx on Aug 22, 2014 0:54:20 GMT -5
I considered getting a Python, especially after I was working my strength back up after a broken leg. My Mom had to do the actual lugging for me, I just cleaned the tank out, etc. I'm not sure how well it would attatch to my sink (and I have more important "needs" at the moment), and wouldn't I still have to run back and forth to change settings (drain/fill/adjust temp), and how would I be able to monitor the water level in the tank if I'm in the room with the faucet for some reason or another? Then, of course, there's the pH/buffer question.... Maybe one day.
I used to drain (4 gallons at a time) into a 5 gallon bucket, then fill that same bucket for refills, but when my Mom had to start doing it for me, she used the 2 1/2 gallon bucket (2 gallons at a time) for the refills. Since then, I've been doing the same thing, hence more trips back to the aquarium. I can manage the 5 gallon bucket to dump the water that has been taken from the tank, since I don't have to go that far to dump it (I don't fill it as much as I used to either). I marked that bucket in gallons (since I've never found a 5G with measuring increments marked on them) and use that as a guide as to how much I have removed from either tank,and so how much I need to replace.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 11:47:44 GMT -5
angelminx That's what I do too.. marking the bucket.. and yes, works like a charm. Especially with smaller volumes it's great to know exactly how much you removed, then you can replace and dose the new water exactly. Great minds, you know... hehehe.. I'm talking about the Python, I have it as I got it for peanuts so I jumped at it but until I manage to build a stand for my also new/unused 36G corner tank, it sits waiting. I see them doing WC's on the tanks in the store with it.. blasting it!.. so I can only figure it's gassing out in the process. I won't be doing that here, so I hope there's a way for me to use it, adjusting the PH at the same time. Failing that, I'm hoping your mom is available for hire.....?
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 22, 2014 22:04:00 GMT -5
Yes, I had thanks.. but reread it, a refresher is always good. Interesting that it says to use a half dose of wonder shell for bettas.
I beleive this is just because of their natural environment is not super high mineralization. I do realize 'stable' is the priority, just thought that the 8 zone is a bit high.. maybe not
8 is to high because of the reverse nitrogen cycle. Converting back to ammonia at 8 pH. Plus, there's only so much time in an evening and sometimes a girl has other fun things to do.. like laundry, dishes etc Yes no need to over work the girl. Remember, the more established you can make your nitrogen cycle, the longer you can go between water changes, which means less trips with the heavy bucket. So then adding a buffer to the new water will look after the PH difference. In that case, I'm adding the new water to the tank right away so the temperature and conditioner are not a problem....You must mean a chemical buffer? And when I do get to the larger tank and want to use a python to refill the tank, can I add the buffer to the tank after the new water? Or would the difference in PH already shock the fish? If you CAN'T do that, what would you do? Adding the buffer right to the tank is not a problem. If your fish are used to a certain pH and you add new water that is not that pH, the buffer will correct it and it will happen so fast that the fish really don't notice anything. UPDATE THE NEXT MORNING (Aug.22): I have a dead rummy nose this morning. No signs, just dead. A young one, only 3.5 cm long. Tracking PH levels in light of all the shifts. But what do I do with this? API liquid tests: Reg. PH= 7.6 (exact match), High PH = <7.4 ? (lighter yellow than 7.4 sample), and Seachem PH Alert tag = 8.0 Greeeeaaaaat oh no! I wonder if it could have been the swings? Weaker of the bunch, dealing with the swings. That's so weird between all the test kits. Since it doesn't really matter about the pH (to some degree) I would just pick one test and always go with it's reading. 7.4 and 7.6 would both be fine. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2014 12:52:10 GMT -5
Yes, I had thanks.. but reread it, a refresher is always good. Interesting that it says to use a half dose of wonder shell for bettas.
I beleive this is just because of their natural environment is not super high mineralization. Thanks, good to know! because I had given the regular full dose to my (now passed on) betta per advice and had read the article on mineralization which suggests introducing minerals gradually starting with a 1/4 or 1/2 dose etc and am only seeing this detail about bettas now in the betta specific article. The article I had read (below) I really did not get that understanding from...
from: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html"• IMPORTANT: Keep in mind that if your aquarium is low in electrolytes, the quick release of positive mineral ions can be stressful to many SE Asia and Amazon River fish such as Bettas as well as many shrimp (such as Crystal Red Shrimp). If not used before, it is strongly advised to start with a 1/4 dose and then work up to a 1/2 dose or more.
Example; a 1/4 Medium Wonder Shell or 1-2 small WS for a 10 gallon aquarium". Now I see it said 'work up to a 1/2 dose or more" but it's only in the context of starting slowly, not what the appropriate dose is. Then again, it says 1/2 does OR MORE.. so I'm really not getting that a half dose is important. The 'example' dose.. expresses what a 1/2 dose is? but I'm not finding anywhere that gives a 'dose' at all..? I realizes these shells release as needed in the tank? so maybe dosing is only a guideline, but IF IT IS important that bettas only get half of what other fish would, I wonder if that could be expressed more definitely in this article? Not to sound critical.. last thing I am of this site/your articles.. just don't want to harm my fish.. of for others to be harmed .. because we missed an important point.. I do realize 'stable' is the priority, just thought that the 8 zone is a bit high.. maybe not
8 is to high because of the reverse nitrogen cycle. Converting back to ammonia at 8 pH. ExactlySo then adding a buffer to the new water will look after the PH difference. In that case, I'm adding the new water to the tank right away so the temperature and conditioner are not a problem....You must mean a chemical buffer? And when I do get to the larger tank and want to use a python to refill the tank, can I add the buffer to the tank after the new water? Or would the difference in PH already shock the fish? If you CAN'T do that, what would you do? Adding the buffer right to the tank is not a problem. If your fish are used to a certain pH and you add new water that is not that pH, the buffer will correct it and it will happen so fast that the fish really don't notice anything. YAY 
UPDATE THE NEXT MORNING (Aug.22): I have a dead rummy nose this morning. No signs, just dead. A young one, only 3.5 cm long. Tracking PH levels in light of all the shifts. But what do I do with this? API liquid tests: Reg. PH= 7.6 (exact match), High PH = <7.4 ? (lighter yellow than 7.4 sample), and Seachem PH Alert tag = 8.0 Greeeeaaaaat oh no! I wonder if it could have been the swings? Weaker of the bunch, dealing with the swings. That's so weird between all the test kits. Since it doesn't really matter about the pH (to some degree) I would just pick one test and always go with it's reading. 7.4 and 7.6 would both be fine.
The test results I cited are actually just 2, the Seachem PH Alert tag and the other being the PH test from the API kit which contains both a high-range test and a reg. range test. In the past when I've used the high-range test (tests 7.4 - 8.8) and gotten a colour paler than the gold of the lowest level (7.4), I've moved to the reg-range test (tests 6.0-7.6) and have gotten a result of maybe 7.2. Makes sense! But this time when I got a first result of a suggest < 7.4, the reg.-range test then told me 7.6.! And I do think it matters which you accept when you're trying to track trends and amount of swings (so it's not just a matter of as you say, either 7.4 or 7.6 is acceptable).. and the Alert tag is no help because while the API test has noted shifts of up to 1.0.. from 7.2 to 8.2... the tag has held firm at 8.0! And then I can rant about the money I've spent to go on this wild goose chase lol..$40 for the API and $15 for the Ammonia/PH Alert tags.. and now I have to wonder about the accuracy of the ammonia tag which I'm entrusted my betta's life to at the moment... oh dear.. think it's Miller time suddenly... any insight into all this very appreciated and welcome.. any prozac?  |
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Post by angelminx on Aug 23, 2014 23:54:10 GMT -5
I've got some Prozac but, sorry, I'm not sharing; I need all I can get.
I've got the same thing going on right now (except my normal pH/KH tends toward the "low" side--especially without using buffers). I usually have to use both the low-range and the high-range pH tests because, at times, the readings are right there at the "dividing line". I ALSO use use the API liquid test--usually without problems.
Today, however, when I tested, I felt I needed to add some KH buffer because over the last 3 days, the value has gone down 0.1 each day, today included. So I added 1/4 tsp of Seachem's Alkaline Buffer to the tank, and tested again a few hours later. The pH had gone back up to 7.5, but because it's so hard to distinguish the actual color with the jump in readings at the "end" of the color chart on the low-range kit (and the jump in the lower range on the high-range kit), I tested with the high-range kit to "compare". When I tested earlier today, I did the same thing and the kit told me that the pH "was" 7.4, but I also used the last of that bottle; so for this test I used a new one: according to it, the pH was way lower than that test registers, i.e. "way below" 7.4. I used the same chart/card I always use for the high-range tests, because I've noticed that a lot of the times the new cards' colors are off--sometimes alot; and I do check to make sure that I'm looking at the freshwater card. I try to keep my KH at 4-5 degrees, which usually will keep my pH around 7.4-7.6, but, again, there's that jump in the upper range of the chart.
I'm going to check again tomorrow to see where everything's settled, and check the high-range test reagent again. If I keep having unusual readings with it, I'm going to contact the company and see if anyone else has reported this with the high-range test. In case you're interested, the bottle reads: LOT 27A0214 EXP 02/2019. In all this time, I've never had a problem with a new reagent; I always do a comparison test between the new bottle and the old one one the same sample, but I forgot to this one time.
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Post by angelminx on Aug 24, 2014 0:03:21 GMT -5
I forgot to mention: I used the pH Alert a few years ago, but never had luck with it, either. The results from the API test kit and it were always way off; like you, it registered the same pH no matter what the other test said. I even tested it in a contianer of water I had drawn from the tap--the result never wavered, even though I put it in imediately, and left it there overnight.
I have noticed, since I got the LEDs, that it's hard to guage the reading on the Ammonia Alert, because the LEDs light it up from behind, and the color shows bright yellow, but with the lights off it looks like it may have a hint of "green" in it--but it looked that way before I even put it into the tank, so I'm assuming that the color is just slightly off.
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Post by parker002 on Aug 25, 2014 8:49:39 GMT -5
While older wood will release lease tannins than newer wood, especially if you're using Malaysian or African mopani, all wood will decay in aquarium water which leads to a natural lowering of pH. Decay of organic material as well as bacterial nitrification lower pH over time while photosynthesis should raise pH over time. Chances are you've already figured out that you've been having these "swings" for a long time and the only difference now is that you know it because you've been testing the water. Unless your fish or plants start showing signs of stress or disease, it's probably best to just let it go. I used to be very OCD about my fish tanks and pond. Since I stopped messing with everything all the time, I'm a lot happier. More importantly, my FISH are a lot happier and healthier. In the end, I was contributing more to their demise than anything in the tank. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 19:31:20 GMT -5
I've got some Prozac but, sorry, I'm not sharing; I need all I can get. I've got the same thing going on right now (except my normal pH/KH tends toward the "low" side--especially without using buffers). I usually have to use both the low-range and the high-range pH tests because, at times, the readings are right there at the "dividing line". I ALSO use use the API liquid test--usually without problems. Today, however, when I tested, I felt I needed to add some KH buffer because over the last 3 days, the value has gone down 0.1 each day, today included. So I added 1/4 tsp of Seachem's Alkaline Buffer to the tank, and tested again a few hours later. The pH had gone back up to 7.5, but because it's so hard to distinguish the actual color with the jump in readings at the "end" of the color chart on the low-range kit (and the jump in the lower range on the high-range kit), I tested with the high-range kit to "compare". When I tested earlier today, I did the same thing and the kit told me that the pH "was" 7.4, but I also used the last of that bottle; so for this test I used a new one: according to it, the pH was way lower than that test registers, i.e. "way below" 7.4. I used the same chart/card I always use for the high-range tests, because I've noticed that a lot of the times the new cards' colors are off--sometimes alot; and I do check to make sure that I'm looking at the freshwater card. I try to keep my KH at 4-5 degrees, which usually will keep my pH around 7.4-7.6, but, again, there's that jump in the upper range of the chart. I'm going to check again tomorrow to see where everything's settled, and check the high-range test reagent again. If I keep having unusual readings with it, I'm going to contact the company and see if anyone else has reported this with the high-range test. In case you're interested, the bottle reads: LOT 27A0214 EXP 02/2019. In all this time, I've never had a problem with a new reagent; I always do a comparison test between the new bottle and the old one one the same sample, but I forgot to this one time. Very interesting that you've had the identical experience as me with the PH test! I just can't believe you won't share the drugs. You of all people who knows my pain  I checked my bottle and guess what, it' the very same batch as yours. I do get different readings from it which I've trusted.. it's just when it gives that paler yellow that says "I'm not nearly up to a 7.4" that I've then checked with the reg. range. Unless there's something we don't understand about reading the results.. I found it odd that there's an overlap between the 2 tests... but I couldn't find any more detail in the instructions.. I find it almost more disturbing that you say the colours on the charts are not consistent kit to kit. I'm on my first so wouldn't notice this, but that's just wrong Troubling when you're tracking shifts to know whether the amount of shift is of concern or not. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 19:39:46 GMT -5
I forgot to mention: I used the pH Alert a few years ago, but never had luck with it, either. The results from the API test kit and it were always way off; like you, it registered the same pH no matter what the other test said. I even tested it in a contianer of water I had drawn from the tap--the result never wavered, even though I put it in imediately, and left it there overnight. I have noticed, since I got the LEDs, that it's hard to guage the reading on the Ammonia Alert, because the LEDs light it up from behind, and the color shows bright yellow, but with the lights off it looks like it may have a hint of "green" in it--but it looked that way before I even put it into the tank, so I'm assuming that the color is just slightly off. My PH Tag moves between a red that matches 8.0 to a darker red which suggests 8.2 or more though it's not a match for the colour on the tag. When I've had readings of 7.8 down to 7.4, it will still be the 8.0 red. I may ask Seachem, they haven't had an email from me all day The ammonia alert, I see mine does shift to a light green tinge when the Prime wears off and the ammonia rises. Can you reverse the suction cup on the tag then stick it to the inside back wall of your aquarium? That way it wouldn't be back lit and perhaps you'll see the shift better. It can be subtle. To test the ammonia tag, instructions say to wave it over an open bottle of ammonia and it should react. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 20:08:50 GMT -5
While older wood will release lease tannins than newer wood, especially if you're using Malaysian or African mopani, all wood will decay in aquarium water which leads to a natural lowering of pH. Decay of organic material as well as bacterial nitrification lower pH over time while photosynthesis should raise pH over time. Chances are you've already figured out that you've been having these "swings" for a long time and the only difference now is that you know it because you've been testing the water. Unless your fish or plants start showing signs of stress or disease, it's probably best to just let it go. I used to be very OCD about my fish tanks and pond. Since I stopped messing with everything all the time, I'm a lot happier. More importantly, my FISH are a lot happier and healthier. In the end, I was contributing more to their demise than anything in the tank. Thanks parker002, make sense about the wood decaying, so it's not all just about the tannins. I think this is mopani. I hear ya on the relaxing about it. I know I was happier before I started all this lol. But I would like to understand what's going on, I mean, how can I fix something if I don't something if I don't even know if its broke? In spite of some frustration with the liquid tests and conflicting results lately, I ran out and bought some more this week.. the GH and KH. So now I'm struggling to understand the results of these. While I've had a few tanks going back some years, I just never got into all this, so in this regard I'm a newbie. The strip tests I used initially told me GH=180, KH=120. Since then I've given 3 weekly '1/4 doses' of Replenish (may not be right for a planted tank?). Now with the liquid tests I'm getting GH=11 dps or 200, and KH=4.5 dps or 75... but have a number of questions surrounding this, such as: how do you know if you have sufficient GH? If this is considered too low a KH for stability, is it possible to raise it without raising the PH? PH hovers around 7.8 but with dips to 7.4 and up to 8.0 currently. A 5.5G I started cycling fishless 2 wks ago with 1/2 old water + some sponge now has had ammonia and nitrites rise and are now back to 0.0. Nitrates =80 or more so I thought I'd test the GH/KH out of curiosity. GH=14 dps or 254 and KH=2 dps or <50. I was surprised about the KH, wondering why so low and heading back to the articles to try and understand these aspects better... but very grateful for any input.. seapetal111/ Maggie |
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Post by Carl on Aug 27, 2014 9:56:31 GMT -5
These test are not intended for exacting scientific measurement, but are more than adequate for aquarium or pond fish husbandry.
Raising KH without raising pH can depend upon many variables including acid production in your aquarium. Photosynthesis will increase pH during the day while bio production will lower pH.
Knowing if you have a sufficient GH is a grey area from my experience, but keeping an adequate GH (100- 400) along with regular infusions (even if small) of Replenish or Wonder Shells will generally insure this
Many products that affect GH such as Wonder Shells or Replenish have little or no affect on KH.
As your tank cycles, this will naturally use up any available KH reserves
Carl
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Post by parker002 on Aug 27, 2014 11:47:44 GMT -5
I hear ya on the relaxing about it. I know I was happier before I started all this lol. But I would like to understand what's going on, I mean, how can I fix something if I don't something if I don't even know if its broke? That was kind of my point behind asking if your fish or plants are showing signs of distress. Maybe it's NOT BROKEN. In all seriousness, I really meant what I said about my fish being healthier and happier. By chasing water parameters and messing with stuff, you might be stressing your fish. It might be better to just let things sit for a few days and then test again. See if things normalize. |
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I checked my bottle and guess what, it' the very same batch as yours. I do get different readings from it which I've trusted.. it's just when it gives that paler yellow that says "I'm not nearly up to a 7.4" that I've then checked with the reg. range. Unless there's something we don't understand about reading the results.. I found it odd that there's an overlap between the 2 tests... but I couldn't find any more detail in the instructions.. 
