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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 23:03:10 GMT -5
Mid-July I did what I think most of us do at some point, and brought home a couple new fish (bettas) on impulse without having those perfectly cycled tanks waiting at home. Both Half Moons, one bright yellow and the other a stunning combination of aqua/green tones with a bright amber tail with blue edge and amazing iridescent pink, purple, green tones within AND this incredible black and yellow striped beard.
So OBVIOUSLY I had to take them. Problem was that the aqua one wasn't doing great.. no disease signs, just weak so with a hefty discount I brought him home and was sure a little tlc and time would fix him up. It almost did, thought we were sailing at a point, but then things took a turn and headed south pretty quickly and I lost him. I feel it was something in the things I did, so I'm hoping to learn where I went wrong to avoid a repeat of this in the future. Here's a little summary of events for little CALYPSO. (Yellow boy aka TAJ has been great, no hitches with him)
WEEK 1:
Set him up in a 2.5G using established tank water from another tank, with just 2.5" of water initially as he was weak and could only get that far up for air. He swam but at an angle with tail lower.With food he started to improve. He went through a number of changes right away. I felt heat would help and so put him into a larger tank with more water (100% change to aged fresh) but still only a few inches so I could use a heater in it. Water cloudy, fins clamped the next morning.. think the large area stressed him too... so into a new 5.5G same water.. still stressed so thought better to have some cycled water and did another 50% change to achieve that. Always same PH (7.8) and temperature. In spite of me, by the end of the week he was much stronger.
WEEK 2:
Doing much better, thought I could add some water to start increasing the overall volume, so added 1 gallon to make it 3.5 gallons. Next day, tested AMMONIA .5 - NITRITES 2.0 - so did a 25% WC. Later bought an Ammonia Alert (read 0.5) and realized I'd used PRIME so those levels were treated and OK. Next day alert tag levels slightly up, did a 15% WC. Tail fin upon moving into the 5.5G was ragged and black at the edge so concerned about fin rot, hence trying to keep levels right down. One more 25%WC as nitrates were up to 5.0 and brought volume up to 4 gallons. First pic below of him from this point. His behaviour by now was great, just his fins now more eroded and gummy looking at the edges.
WEEK 3:
Started dosing MELAFIX for the fins, continued for 4 days total, followed by a 25%WC. Much better! I have videos from this point that show him in full Half Moon splendour.. fin edges soft and clean, just need to grow in.. otherwise all behaviour perfect! Another 6 days with him getting better, then suddenly he was stressed. Fins half clamped. Tested AMMONIA .25 - NITRITES .25 and had used conditioner last WC not PRIME as I felt it interferes with cycling so I should let the tank cycle. Thinking these levels were causing the stress, did a 40%WC and having discussed the need for minerals with Carl, gave a first dose of REPLENISH, but just 1/4 of the regular dose, and PIMAFIX for the fins which had more deep rounded 'scoops' out of the edges. Next day he was the same. Concerned that I'd used Mealfix before and left it in (misread notes), felt I should filter it out, so added 1 gallon fresh aged water to bring volume up to 5 gallons so I could run the filter. Ran it for @ 1 hour, he didn't seem to mind, even played in the flow. Actually perked up and seemed better so I thought I'd done a good thing. Next morning, he was much worse.. hiding in floating log, crashing under russian moss, colour of body now seemed lighter too.. I tested the PH and found it closer to 7.4 than the usual 7.8. Did I just learn about PH crashes??? (new territory for me) Anyway, I felt sure he couldn't rebound while in that water, so with his neighbour all this time doing 'swimmingly' hehehe in the tank next to him, I opted to pull some water from that tank and over and hour or so, moved Calypso into that. Well it just went from bad to worse and he passed that night.
So there it is. As I said I'm pretty confident changes I made were the problem, (although this guy had a rough start, he seemed to have rallied). I've never had to deal with the kind of stress he displayed... most have gone like the yellow one Taj, easy!.. so I really wasn't sure whether I should be doing less or more, but you can see I did lots more! Just want to learn where I went wrong, so all input gratefully received. Thanks all !
Second, third pics of yellow betta Taj: Fiirst pic shows him as he started out, perfect fins, soft, no stress... and although he's proceeded well, as in second pic, fins now have some minor clamping/curling at the edges. Can anyone tell me what this is due to? Again thanks.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 15, 2014 17:58:04 GMT -5
Here are my educated guesses. I'll admit I've never had to through this much with a betta, but I have had other issues with some other fish.
First the fish already had a weak immunity, so any additional stress would not be good for him. Having an established tank with zero ammonia and nitrites would have been best, with good mineralization. Having the adjustment in the ammonia, nitrites, and pH did no good for the little guy. All the movement tank to tank, didn't help either. I know you were just trying to make him comfortable.
Having an establish tank, eliminates all the water changes. These water changes flex the pH, this is the hardest on the fish. I think this might have been a major player. You would really want to use prime, just for the new water in these cases. Put the prime in the new water, then add it to the tank. I would be using prime any time there is Ammonia and Nitrates. You shouldn't have to be worried about these factors with an already sick fish. You don't want to do treatment, while battling these parameters. Just to many factors and any of it can be hard on the fish. Nitrates are not much of a worry. They can be up to 40 before there is much of a concern. 5 is nothing.
I do like how you have a lower amount of water, so he could get a breath. This was a good idea. Established water would have been better. It just seemed like there was to much movement in the parameters, which was not doing any good for any already sick fish. Ammonia, Nitrites, and a swing pH are the harshest on a fish. If the immunity was already poor, this would be hard to handle.
If I had to put money on it, this would be my best guess. I hope this all makes sense.
Beautiful bettas though.
Devon
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 0:47:34 GMT -5
Here are my educated guesses. I'll admit I've never had to through this much with a betta, but I have had other issues with some other fish. First the fish already had a weak immunity, so any additional stress would not be good for him. Having an established tank with zero ammonia and nitrites would have been best, with good mineralization. Having the adjustment in the ammonia, nitrites, and pH did no good for the little guy. All the movement tank to tank, didn't help either. I know you were just trying to make him comfortable. Having an establish tank, eliminates all the water changes. These water changes flex the pH, this is the hardest on the fish. I think this might have been a major player. You would really want to use prime, just for the new water in these cases. Put the prime in the new water, then add it to the tank. I would be using prime any time there is Ammonia and Nitrates. You shouldn't have to be worried about these factors with an already sick fish. You don't want to do treatment, while battling these parameters. Just to many factors and any of it can be hard on the fish. Nitrates are not much of a worry. They can be up to 40 before there is much of a concern. 5 is nothing. I do like how you have a lower amount of water, so he could get a breath. This was a good idea. Established water would have been better. It just seemed like there was to much movement in the parameters, which was not doing any good for any already sick fish. Ammonia, Nitrites, and a swing pH are the harshest on a fish. If the immunity was already poor, this would be hard to handle. If I had to put money on it, this would be my best guess. I hope this all makes sense. Beautiful bettas though. Devon Thanks again Devon! I was actually cringing a little writing/recalling all the changes.. bit of a run away train there. All started from the thought he'd benefit from some heat. Had I been clearer on the absolute importance/priority of keeping him in the established tank water and not changing, I might have opted to use a little reptile heating pad carefully to raise the temp a few degrees, and next day got the new 5.5 g where I could have gradually increased the volume.. with same water.. and added a 25W heater. I bet he'd still be here  Huge learning experience, for sure.
Still curious about the curling I'm seeing on my yellow guy's fin tips, it's more tonight. Also, I was in a pet store a week ago where they'd just received in some new half moons. Gorgeous, perfect fins. I was back there today and those still there had the same going on, mild clamping and curling. Wondering if some conditioners with aloe might actually coat their delicate fins and cause this...
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 16, 2014 12:19:42 GMT -5
Wondering if some conditioners with aloe might actually coat their delicate fins and cause this... What conditioners are being used with aloe? I know their fins are the first signs a lot. Having fluctuating waters is one of them, along with disease. I give it some more thought and see if I can find more on it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 16:45:16 GMT -5
Aug 16, 2014 13:19:42 GMT -4 devonjohnsgard said: What conditioners are being used with aloe? I know their fins are the first signs a lot. Having fluctuating waters is one of them, along with disease. I give it some more thought and see if I can find more on it. This guy came home mid July. Was using PRIME until July 30 when I switched to another conditioner because I read that PRIME would prevent the tank from cycling. (?) This other conditioner is from the popular chain of (4) aquarium stores in Toronto, Big Al's. It has Aloe Vera. A photo I took of him July 20 (first pic of plain yellow betta, posted above) shows fins clean, normal. Pics taken since July 30 show fins starting to curling at edges. I've noticed too that the thermometer in the tank feels slimy, and also the little floating log I bought him (so a few weeks old only) has a very slimy build up on the underside. In addition, the brown colour/paint on it started changing (coming off?) very quickly revealing a grey, which looks like an undercoat. I don't recall an older one I have doing that, eventually but not in the first weeks. I'd thought this may be due to salt which I was using at the rate of .5 tsp/gallon. (have now reduced my level for ongoing use to .25 tsp/gal.. as I'm now using Replenish, soon to be wonder shells... .25 tsp/gal is what is now in the tank). I think he's getting PRIME with today's water change! Re: using SALT ongoing in the tank, wondering if this is advisable with the use of Wonder Shells/Replenish ? .. b/c these products also contain sodium chloride.. I guess this whole topic was one I should have posted in a general thread, not this... sorry, will smarten up  |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 18, 2014 17:07:42 GMT -5
This guy came home mid July. Was using PRIME until July 30 when I switched to another conditioner because I read that PRIME would prevent the tank from cycling. (?) This other conditioner is from the popular chain of (4) aquarium stores in Toronto, Big Al's. It has Aloe Vera. A photo I took of him July 20 (first pic of plain yellow betta, posted above) shows fins clean, normal. Pics taken since July 30 show fins starting to curling at edges. I've noticed too that the thermometer in the tank feels slimy, and also the little floating log I bought him (so a few weeks old only) has a very slimy build up on the underside. In addition, the brown colour/paint on it started changing (coming off?) very quickly revealing a grey, which looks like an undercoat. I don't recall an older one I have doing that, eventually but not in the first weeks. I'd thought this may be due to salt which I was using at the rate of .5 tsp/gallon. (have discontinued using but there's still some in the tank). I think he's getting PRIME with today's water change! Re: using SALT ongoing in the tank, wondering if this is unnecessary with the use of Wonder Shells/Replenish ......? Here's a quote about prime: " SeaChem Prime or Amquel Plus are excellent first choice products to use when ammonia and nitrite levels are an issues, as these do not interfere with the cycling process as other products can when used properly.
These can help with natural slime coat generation and are also temporary Redox Reducers which can aid in oxidative stress." From the freshwater basics article. www.americanaquariumproducts.com/basic_aquarium_principles.htmlFor the salt, you can just use the wonder shell. Here's a great article that talks about using salt, but also how wondershells can be a way to get these minerals and what GH the tank should be kept at. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/03/salt-in-freshwater-aquariums.htmlIt's a good question about the aloe vera. I havent heard of this or witnessed it. I'll ask some others and see if they have some clue. If there is a good water quality, this would be the next best guess. It's a popular brand, so I'd wonder if anyone else has had the issue. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2014 22:13:14 GMT -5
Makes sense that PRIME doesn't interfere with cycling as it only detoxifies and does not remove ammonia. Not sure where I read otherwise, but that's good! Re: Using Wonder Shells only.. again good! On less level to worry about or calculate. I also like the fact that Wonder Shells will dissolve at the rate needed, that's so much better than the guesswork with Replenish (for ongoing use). Plus it's difficult to does halfway between water changes when you don't know when that water change will be! Re: Sliminess in tank and aloe vera... I did a 25% WC on the tank yesterday using PRIME instead of the conditioner with aloe vera. Salt in the tank is @ .25 tsp/gallon so very little yet sliminess persists. If that' the salt I've never noticed before. The betta's fins do look better.. softer and fuller.. more half moon-ish ... The bits that had curled show damage from that but otherwise clean so will keep an eye on it. Wondering if the aloe coating is just too much for delicate long Betta fins... probable fine for other fish. Thanks Devon! |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 19, 2014 16:24:14 GMT -5
I think your on to something. If you ever find that the GH is off the charts, you can take it our for a bit and then put it back in. Well water would have to do this, but tap water, you keep it in most the time.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2014 18:06:31 GMT -5
I think your on to something. If you ever find that the GH is off the charts, you can take it our for a bit and then put it back in. Well water would have to do this, but tap water, you keep it in most the time. Sorry Devon, you're losing me here.... what are you referring to? Where does GH dome into this?  |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 20, 2014 17:57:43 GMT -5
I think your on to something. If you ever find that the GH is off the charts, you can take it our for a bit and then put it back in. Well water would have to do this, but tap water, you keep it in most the time. Sorry Devon, you're losing me here.... what are you referring to? Where does GH dome into this? " GH; is “general hardness” by the common long standing definition. A more accurate description for aquarium (or pond) needs is the calcium, magnesium, and other essential minerals found in an aquarium.
More importantly a test for GH is simply measure of these elements presence and the ability of maintaining essential positive mineral ions, but not the guarantee these mineral ions are present....
Having a very low or non existent GH certainly means you cannot maintain these ESSENTIAL electrolytes/mineral ions that ALL fish require, including Bettas, Ram Cichlids, etc., just not as as high of amounts as fish such as Guppies, or Goldfish might require....
Assuming properly mineralized water (from your tap or well), a water change can add in these ions.
As well buffer/mineral supplements, Wonder Shells, Cichlid Salts, and other products are ways to maintain these essential mineral ions..." www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/So I guess I'm saying, keep a wonder shell in the tank. If you ever find that for some reason the wonder shell dissolved fast and the GH is around the 400-500 range, I would take it out of the tank (I've had this happen before). Then make sure theres a wonder shell if the GH goes below 150. 150-400 is the range you want to be in for good mineralization and the essential positive mineral ions. Please let me know if I'm not making sense and just talking to talk.... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2014 18:51:28 GMT -5
Oh I doubt very much you're just talkin' to talk, you get more than enough call to be talkin' on here. Sorry, my bad for throwing a mixed bag of topics at ya all at once. Just didn't realize you were referring to the W Shells. All makes sense, and you my friend are golden. A1. Thanks again
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 21, 2014 9:06:19 GMT -5
Glad  |
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Post by Carl on Aug 25, 2014 19:31:32 GMT -5
From Aquarium Answers; Water Conditioners #Stress Coat: "Stress Coat contains a special non-toxic polymer that is attracted to the skin of the fish forming a synthetic slime coat envelope. Stress Coat also contains sodium thiosulfate, electrolytes such as sodium and sulfides which help reduce loss of electrolytes through the skin, gills, and damaged tissue. The Aloe Vera in STRESS COAT reduces inflammation of damaged fish tissue.
One major negative of Stress Coat is that it uses amine based polymers (see summary below) that have potential toxicity issues when used with Resins such as Purigen."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html#stress_coatPersonally, I have found limited use for this product unless used directly near the fish, such as after netting and prior to return to the tank. Otherwise my preferences are Prime, Amquel Plus, or Start Right Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 25, 2014 21:47:01 GMT -5
First, gorgeous bettas! I especially love the orange one, he is adorable! Though I am late to this thread, I have to agree with devonjohnsgard that in trying to get him comfortable, you did more for him than he could handle. When I first starting keeping fish (rescued feeder fish which were almost never healthy when I got them), I did a ton of medicating and water changes plus I knew next to nothing about fish at the time. As it turns out, sometimes less is more. I stopped doing too much for them and years later, all of my rescued feeder goldfish seem to live about 8 years before they die or have to be euthanized if they are dying slowly and suffering a lot. However, it is also important to note that fish that are weak whether from poor care or genetics may get die despite the best of care. Also, good question on the salt. I have never considered this when I've added wondershells or Replenish. I should start doing this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Best of luck with your remaining bettas! Renee |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 18:07:17 GMT -5
From Aquarium Answers; Water Conditioners #Stress Coat: "Stress Coat contains a special non-toxic polymer that is attracted to the skin of the fish forming a synthetic slime coat envelope. Stress Coat also contains sodium thiosulfate, electrolytes such as sodium and sulfides which help reduce loss of electrolytes through the skin, gills, and damaged tissue. The Aloe Vera in STRESS COAT reduces inflammation of damaged fish tissue.
One major negative of Stress Coat is that it uses amine based polymers (see summary below) that have potential toxicity issues when used with Resins such as Purigen."Reference: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html#stress_coatPersonally, I have found limited use for this product unless used directly near the fish, such as after netting and prior to return to the tank. Otherwise my preferences are Prime, Amquel Plus, or Start Right Carl Thanks Carl, I actually had not bought this as a 'stress coat'. They sell it, and I bought it for use as a dechlorinator, just thought it had some added benefit with the aloe... and they do promote the API Stress Coat as stress coat. The second bullet on the package label is 'removes chlorine' though it's hard to see in my pic. It does not provide ingredients nor could I find any listed by them online. I just called the store but they have no further info on it. However, if it does contain those ingredients you mention, it obviously amounts to the same thing... so thanks for the warning and info. I'd only decided to try it as I was frustrated trying to dose Prime to small tanks and concerned about overdosing.. but that's all solved now.. (if anyone needs to know, for small tanks dose 2 drops per gallon, per Seachem) so that's easy now. I really like the Prime plus for it's other benefits.. so with my experience with this plus your comments, I think I'll just be sure to stick with the Prime going forward. Good news, his fins improved immediately with the next w.change using Prime. He's now had 2 and except for some new little notches in his tail fin.. bites?.. his fins are back to looking pretty perfect. Here he is today... Attachments:
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Post by Carl on Aug 26, 2014 18:32:39 GMT -5
Yes, API repackages this product for Big Al's (& others), in fact the bottle is exactly the same bottle, only the label is different. Great!! He is definitely looking better! Carl |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 18:40:43 GMT -5
First, gorgeous bettas! I especially love the orange one, he is adorable! Though I am late to this thread, I have to agree with devonjohnsgard that in trying to get him comfortable, you did more for him than he could handle. When I first starting keeping fish (rescued feeder fish which were almost never healthy when I got them), I did a ton of medicating and water changes plus I knew next to nothing about fish at the time. As it turns out, sometimes less is more. I stopped doing too much for them and years later, all of my rescued feeder goldfish seem to live about 8 years before they die or have to be euthanized if they are dying slowly and suffering a lot. However, it is also important to note that fish that are weak whether from poor care or genetics may get die despite the best of care. Also, good question on the salt. I have never considered this when I've added wondershells or Replenish. I should start doing this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Best of luck with your remaining bettas! Renee Thanks Renee! The orange one's your fav, well that's good as he's my only surviving fella at this point. I'm laughing at your calling him orange because his name is TAJ, meaning yellow/silver.. he was yellow when I got him 6 wks ago! Second time this has happened to me. The other one, a veil tail started out as Sunrise and had a few names before ending up as Wildfire. He went from yellow to a dark orange red with black accenting the scallop shape of his scales. So we shall see what happens with TAJ, he should look just like a goldfish by next week lol *sigh* so much for my quest for a yellow betta. Regarding the other betta, I'm afraid you and Devon are right on this one. I'm not a total newbie, have had fish on and off for @ 8 yrs, starting with goldfish.. Orandas. Having learned as you did, I do try to not do too much. With that one, I started out well but in wanting to add heat, made changes that unfortunately were more detrimental than his not having heat! Then when a real problem arose in that new tank, I this time was forced to make a change and it just sort of went into a chain reaction from there. Very sad to lose that boy and have resolved to never bring one home without first having a home ready for him. (I tell store staff on my way in not to sell me any lol). 2 tanks cycling as we speak hehehehe. Learning experience for sure, and it's so true what you say that sometimes it's not up to us and all the best care in the world can't help. Good to remember. Also have to keep trying The salt, yes.. not sure though I believe Devon noted you could just go with the Wonder Shells. Regarding Replenish, had forgotten it contains sodium and have been adding it to my planted tetra tank. Time to revisit the articles on that one.. Thanks for all your comments Renee, appreciate it... Maggie |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2014 19:01:24 GMT -5
Yes, API repackages this product for Big Al's (& others), in fact the bottle is exactly the same bottle, only the label is different. Really! Too funny, I'll let them know at the store. (especially as I just spoke to one of their guys who confirmed they do promote this as their dechlorinator, but if you specifically want a stress product, they usually steer you to API's Stress Coat).
Great!! He is definitely looking better! Carl Thanks! Have to say too that he's doing amazing, full of energy and very busy. After reading your articles I pumped up the diet. Instead of just Omega One pellets, now serving those or Hikari's betta bits soaked in spirulina (there's no better supplement), or frozen bloodworms. Never dry pellets and I believe in the long term it will make a huge difference. Also I'd thought half moons would only show off their full circle of fin if they were excited.. like flaring the gills.. but this guy stops and strikes a pose regularly! Pretty cute but also just beautiful. I highly recommend a Half Moon to anyone
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 7, 2014 1:17:37 GMT -5
You're welcome. Hmm, maybe it's time to rename him "Orangy" until he changes color again and needs a new name. lol Fish certainly do change color a lot. A had a goldfish named Puon (poor Puon, its owner loves weird names) that had the juvenile dark grey coloring for the first year or two I had it, then a light grey for three of four years and finally, the last couple years I had it, Puon was finally golden in coloration. (Note: That isn't why I have golden in front of the word puon in my username lol). In my opinion, keeping fish is a hobby a person has to go through a little of a trial-and-error period to find out what works and what doesn't. I doubt that many people have no mishaps when keeping fish when they first start. So please don't me hard on yourself regarding your betta's passing. You did the best you could and tried with all you could to save him. Even if you had done less, he may very well have not survived or quite possibly died sooner. Exactly! Keep trying and keep learning. A thing about keeping fish is you never stop learning new things. You're welcome and best of luck with your bettas and other fish! Renee |
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Post by Carl on Sept 7, 2014 10:50:45 GMT -5
You're welcome. In my opinion, keeping fish is a hobby a person has to go through a little of a trial-and-error period to find out what works and what doesn't. I doubt that many people have no mishaps when keeping fish when they first start. So please don't me hard on yourself regarding your betta's passing. Renee Great point! While I have written many articles based on both long time observations and research, fish keeping is still far from an exact science. I would add that "mishaps" do not happen to beginners, but to experienced fish/aquarium keepers (myself included) Carl |
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Huge learning experience, for sure. 
