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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 7, 2014 17:18:28 GMT -5
I'm worried about him sitting in water that I just tested at 1.0 ammonia. (tried to feed a few times but quickly removed food bits) If I start with WC's again like on the last dose, the meds will be diluted again. Either way seems counter productive. What to do?! I would use the prime. It's not great that the ammonia is this high. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 18:49:01 GMT -5
The only meds it will interact with is copper, Malchite Green and similar chemical type treatments So that would not have worked as he's in Fungus Cure which is the Victoria/Malachite Green.
This same experiment found that Prime and other water conditioners "neutralizing activities" do not last long once introduced into water.
So adding Prime, Amquel Plus, etc. then waiting for 15 minutes before adding Malachite Green, etc. yields no changes in the malachite green in solution." In my case the malachite green is already in the water, so I'll need a different solution this time...
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Anyway, I couldn't locate that info at the time and did not hear back from Seachem (yet).. couldn't stand him sitting in 1.0 ammonia water any longer so did a 50% WC. Also added 8 drops... the full dose you gave me of REPLENISH ( I see one of your articles says first time should use 1/4 dose?.. hope we're ok there..
So now he is no longer in the proper dose of FUNGUS CURE again and I don't know what to do with a choice of proper dose but 1.0 ammonia, or 1/2 dose with .5 ammonia.  He's supposed to be dosed til noon tomorrow (Friday)
Guess I'm starting to fret here as time goes on.
1) As with the first round of FUNGUS CURE, I've again opted to dilute the dose to reduce ammonia, so he's again not getting the right dose meaning it's not likely very effective
2) Although abdomen size normalized, he still has some whiteness on his belly and in gills .. which you agree 'possibly' could be treated/dead tissue.. so I'm really struggling as to what I'm looking for, because if the whiteness IS treated/dead tissue, then sounds like that won't change no matter how long I keep him in the chemicals. Maybe the meds have done their job?
Guess what I'm saying is I really need help deciding with what makes the most sense to do now. He has hung in like a trooper but not getting stronger as time wears on.
Do I put him back in the full dose + ammonia? (saved a 1/2 gallon) or would it be better to keep him as is (meds diluted 50%) and sterilize his reg. 5.5G tank overnight... set it up with sponge/gravel from my 10G tetra tank... and move him back in there without meds and see how that goes? I could order the medicated Wonder Shells and add those once they arrive.
As always, thank you so much... and for your patience with my endless questions.. one nervous mom here 
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2014 18:54:53 GMT -5
I'm worried about him sitting in water that I just tested at 1.0 ammonia. (tried to feed a few times but quickly removed food bits) If I start with WC's again like on the last dose, the meds will be diluted again. Either way seems counter productive. What to do?! I would use the prime. It's not great that the ammonia is this high. Thanks devonjohnsgard ! I'm just seeing your note as I was responding to Carl's reply. If you see that reply, he noted that PRIME affects malachite green.. and what my guy is in has malachite green. I buckled and went for a 50% WC, but please see my latest reply, it very clearly expresses where I'm at.    I hope my description or pics were not misleading in any way before.. but in talking about Columnaris, he did have the distinctive coating on the fin tip.. re: other signs of white coloration of the scales.. there has never been any 'matter' to that as with the 'saddle back' symptom, just colour change.. and the whiteness in the gills... whatever has not killed him yet.... can it be there's something more or different going on now... and wondering about my idea of taking him off the Fungus Cure.. but continuing dips.. and getting the medicated W Shells,, sorry rambling now, just very frustrated... I've just added a second new pic... because I've just noticed tonight that the band of paler skin down his side that I thought was better.. is actually there on the one side plus extending into the pelvic fin. While the abdomen has appeared 'whitish', this all has a warmer, maybe golden tone... and remember he is in green water so that is affecting the appearance.. but I'm wondering if this is a clue to something more... velvet maybe? .. going with him... ? His behaviour does not match the description for velvet: he is just sitting, not flashing at all etc... thank you for any insight anyone has.. Would love any input on next steps ... again, many thanks! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 13:01:20 GMT -5
FRIDAY NOON UPDATE... Okay, well he's still hanging in! As I couldn't detoxify the ammonia in the QT tank ( or filter it from a 2.5 g tank) and wound up diluting it with aged fresh water so he did not get the proper dose for the second stage of treatment.. but time has lapsed and I feel he needs out, so moving on. Now in the process of gradually acclimatizing him to a fresh mix of 1/2 tetra tank water and 1/2 aged fresh... and heading into a new 5.5 gallon tank, and will go from there. My plan is to continue baths of double dose (2 tsp:1 gal) SALT and perhaps FUNGUS CURE. Am also anxious to see him in clear, not green water to get a clearer view of him and the discoloration on his sides, pelvic fin..looks gold-ish in the green water but may not be at all. I'm sending in my order for Methylene Blue, Potassium Pemanganate and medicated Wonder Shells. If we're still fighting by the time those arrive, then maybe the new artillery will save the day. All input very gratefully welcomed, with thanks to all  |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 8, 2014 18:53:37 GMT -5
I would get him into a tank that's not going to have high ammonia or manage the QT. If you are going to use a medicated wonder shell, I would suggest the dips as a solution. I would try not to have a 1/2 dose of the FC, because it might just build up a tolerance. Maybe, keep the ammonia low and then dip him?
I would continue this treatment for 10 days and watch for signs of improvement. If not, the different combination of meds might be in order, like you are saying. It looks like we need to see him more active. He is eating right?
Really, the ammonia is bad and the 1/2 dose of meds is not so good either. So getting the right water quality and the right dose of meds is really needed. Let us know what you end up doing... Hang in there. You're doing all that you can.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 20:42:44 GMT -5
I would get him into a tank that's not going to have high ammonia or manage the QT. If you are going to use a medicated wonder shell, I would suggest the dips as a solution. I would try not to have a 1/2 dose of the FC, because it might just build up a tolerance. Maybe, keep the ammonia low and then dip him? Hi! Thanks for looking in on us, So here t'is, Friday evening.. I pity the poor people who have nothing better to do than go dancing. They need to get a fish or two
So we're still fighting the fight here...
I couldn't manage the ammonia in the 2.5 gal, nothing to filter that small a tank (no more 2.5g tanks here for ANY USE from now on!) .. but he was in half dose and the time done anyway... I bought him a new 5.5g and no choice but start fresh so I built 2.5 gallons in it with half from my tetra tank and half fresh aged (2 hours) water. Identical PH and temperature and I acclimatized him in the QT tank he was in, reducing volume and adding new until he got to almost all fresh then moved him into the 5.5 gallon. Took 5 hours or so. 0.0 ammonia, 0.0 nitrites, minimal nitrates... SALT @ 1 tsp/gal, and full dose REPLENISH per Carl.
My understanding is you go that slow to reduce shock but if that's not the best way, please.. let me know!!!!
I would continue this treatment for 10 days and watch for signs of improvement. If not, the different combination of meds might be in order, like you are saying. "This treatment...".. are you referring to the Wonder Shells? I haven't ordered the wonder shells yet.. but will tonight, but it will be into next week before they arrive. So for now am doing as mentioned, keeping him in clean water (1 tsp salt/gallon) and the plan has been to do baths of salt and fungus cure... unless you have another suggestion? He just had a 30 min bath in just SALT, 2 tsp/gallon and came through well.
***In ordering the Wonder Shells, I'm trying to get a sense of how long one.. say a small one.. lasts in any given volume.. just to gauge how many to order.. any rule of thumb you could give me on that?
I guess I don't really understand.. if it's possible even to know... what the villain is at this point...?
I just took more pics.. see below. Better viewing him in clear water.
PIC 1: Really shows how white his belly is on the left side, and...
***Really concerning me right now is the paleness down his side and even onto the tail is like a matte 'coating'.. appears grey/silver in strong light, but more gold in daylight. Not gucky, just matte colour.
Is it typical for it to be on the high spots only and not in the recesses like that?
Guys, can you please tell me if you feel this is consistent with the columnaris you were citing? Asking because I can't find a reference to this sort of effect anywhere, and honestly to me it just looks like scalded tissue. Is there any chance it is skin damage from the strength of the drugs or salt... or something else? ( just highlighting this aspect, hoping for some feedback on it.. not yelling  )
PIC 2 Shows a closeup of the tail and that effect.
PIC 3 Shows he still has that white stuff in the right gill.. nothing has killed that yet... and on his back there's a teeny but distinct white spot (cottony) that nothing has killed.
It looks like we need to see him more active. He is eating right? He hasn't eaten anything for 4 days now.
Less strong than a couple days ago. Just sits but upright, makes it up for air (4" deep water) and back down. Scoots around if you make him.
I've never had a sick fish hang in so long or come through so much ... I don't know if there's much chance he can make it through this, but there seems to be some strength there. Sending the pics in case anything shows up in them that might suggest something to someone with much more experience than me...
If you think I should be doing something different right now, please let me know!
Oh, and mystery solved about the PH levels, tap to tank water. I aged some for an hour + and presto it came up as 7.8, the same as all my tanks. Tested immediately is 7.4. Can't believe I've asked several 'pros' in the stores lately about this and not one mentioned having to let it sit.
So thank you devonjohnsgard !
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 9, 2014 11:51:55 GMT -5
I couldn't manage the ammonia in the 2.5 gal, nothing to filter that small a tank (no more 2.5g tanks here for ANY USE from now on!) .. but he was in half dose and the time done anyway... I bought him a new 5.5g and no choice but start fresh so I built 2.5 gallons in it with half from my tetra tank and half fresh aged (2 hours) water. Identical PH and temperature and I acclimatized him in the QT tank he was in, reducing volume and adding new until he got to almost all fresh then moved him into the 5.5 gallon. Took 5 hours or so. 0.0 ammonia, 0.0 nitrites, minimal nitrates... SALT @ 1 tsp/gal, and full dose REPLENISH per Carl. My understanding is you go that slow to reduce shock but if that's not the best way, please.. let me know!!!! This sounds like a good process to get him transferred over. So this tank will be able to keep Ammonia and Nitrites at 0? If so, that’s good. The longer transfer is better just because he’s already having a hard time. You want to do what’s going to be the least stock. Now are you able to go longer between full or even half water changes? This treatment...".. are you referring to the Wonder Shells? I haven't ordered the wonder shells yet.. but will tonight, but it will be into next week before they arrive. So for now am doing as mentioned, keeping him in clean water (1 tsp salt/gallon) and the plan has been to do baths of salt and fungus cure... unless you have another suggestion? He just had a 30 min bath in just SALT, 2 tsp/gallon and came through well. I was referring to the regular salt and the double of fungus cure. I would do this dip for 10 days. Right now, I believe he is only getting a half dose, but the dip at double would be better. Carl also made some other suggestion if this treatment didn’t work, but I would try them if 10 days went by and he wasn’t better. You could also try the in tank treatment suggestion that was made, then you wouldn’t have to stress him more by taking him out for a dip. The meds wouldn’t have an issue with the wonder shell either. ***In ordering the Wonder Shells, I'm trying to get a sense of how long one.. say a small one.. lasts in any given volume.. just to gauge how many to order.. any rule of thumb you could give me on that? A shell might last like 2 to 4 weeks, depending how you use it too. If you already have higher mineralization (GH), a smaller piece of the shell can be put in. If the minerals are low a whole shell could be put in. They dissolve based on how many minerals are already in the water. I guess I don't really understand.. if it's possible even to know... what the villain is at this point...? Now, I admit I don’t know everything about fish disease. I just know enough to get myself in trouble… I would go with Carl’s diagnosis most likely Columaris. He is more knowledgeable about this kind of stuff then me. I would go with this answer because of the slim and the cottoningy white dots. ***Really concerning me right now is the paleness down his side and even onto the tail is like a matte 'coating'.. appears grey/silver in strong light, but more gold in daylight. Not gucky, just matte colour. I believe this is his slim coat coming off and now it’s raw. I’ve had this with one of my angels a way back. This is the treatment of Carl’s is needed for. Keep trying the double dose of fungus cure and salt. If he pulls through he will be able to get that coat back and heal that. Guys, can you please tell me if you feel this is consistent with the columnaris you were citing? Asking because I can't find a reference to this sort of effect anywhere, and honestly to me it just looks like scalded tissue. Is there any chance it is skin damage from the strength of the drugs or salt... or something else? IMO, it’s because the betta is fighting off the disease and is not producing the slim from it. This is my best educated guess though. I know it does effect the skin. americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.htmlShows he still has that white stuff in the right gill.. nothing has killed that yet... and on his back there's a teeny but distinct white spot (cottony) that nothing has killed. He hasn't eaten anything for 4 days now.Yup, Columnaris. I’m going with Carl on this one. I've never had a sick fish hang in so long or come through so much ... I don't know if there's much chance he can make it through this, but there seems to be some strength there. Sending the pics in case anything shows up in them that might suggest something to someone with much more experience than me... I know some fish will bounce back from being right on the edge, a sometime not. It’s a hard call, but we try to pick the best treatment and do what we can. I think you have good idea what to do. No toxic water, lower temp, mineralization, and treatment. A cycled tank is best or do water changes when needed. Treatment can be in the tank, with a med. WS. Or dips. Swabs are an option, but I like to try everything else first. Oh, and mystery solved about the PH levels, tap to tank water. I aged some for an hour + and presto it came up as 7.8, the same as all my tanks. Tested immediately is 7.4. Can't believe I've asked several 'pros' in the stores lately about this and not one mentioned having to let it sit. So thank you devonjohnsgard np |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2014 20:41:37 GMT -5
Thank you devonjohnsgard for the very detailed reply. Very helpful! I think your call on the cause of the skin discoloration is more than likely bang on. I've never had a fish come through so much and so have never seen this effect on the skin, but it makes perfect sense. Also very important to know because it takes that out of the equation of disease symptoms. I've felt much more comfortable with the diagnosis of columnaris with this explained, because it just didn't seem to fit. I want to thank both you devonjohnsgard and Carl for your concerted efforts to help me help my little guy. If only that along with all my own efforts and caring could be enough. Unfortunately we didn't win this one, Xochi passed on last night. I'm especially sad to lose this fellow because he was such an amazing, delightful little guy. Company would come and sit watching him for ages exploring, patrolling the grounds and swimming playfully, he barely stopped to sleep! So much personality and spirit in such a teeny package, he brought lots of smiles. I also believed I was doing things pretty well, better than to have things like Columnaris/Saprolegnia enter the picture. I'll be taking a look at the big picture, reviewing the basics to see what needs fixing. Xochi may have been a bit older and so more difficult to treat, but I want to keep aquariums with optimum conditions where things like these don't become an issue. I will send pics soon of the filter set-up I described, and may have some more questions. For now, just want to say thanks again gentlemen for your generous help... and R.I.P. little buddy. |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 11, 2014 17:20:59 GMT -5
RIP Xochi. Sure was a beautiful betta. I'm sorry he didn't make it. You were sure trying. With betas, sometimes it just comes down to weak genetics. They are not able to fight off disease and once something starts, it's hard to turn it around. You did what you could. Now you know much more for if this ever happens again. Hopefully not with some new things figured out. Please do let us know about your filter. Filtration is the first step to a healthy aquarium. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2014 2:29:20 GMT -5
RIP Xochi. Sure was a beautiful betta. I'm sorry he didn't make it. You were sure trying. With betas, sometimes it just comes down to weak genetics. They are not able to fight off disease and once something starts, it's hard to turn it around. You did what you could. Now you know much more for if this ever happens again. Hopefully not with some new things figured out. Please do let us know about your filter. Filtration is the first step to a healthy aquarium. Thanks @devonsgard! I'm just not someone who should be allowed to name fish. Once they have a name, that's it, they're part of the family! So ya, lousy weekend around here fish-wise especially as the following day a new betta (<1 month) suddenly took a turn and died. I may post separately for that one (Calypso lol), in case anyone has some insight on it. I sure know more for another time. Like when you have conflicting/mismatched signs, means you have multiple diseases!. Re: Columnaris, learned you don't always get the classic saddle back. The white belly is a symptom. I'd thought at an early stage this was just from being expanded due to constipation. When that first appeared, I'd fasted him and fed peas a couple times and he produced white poop once (normal but white). A sign of internal infection I gather, not just lack of food. (?) The misty fibrous growth that filled one gill was clearly Saprolegnia to me, but what I never suspected as that was the very first symptom of the 'plaque' by his pectoral fin/gill. That was opaque with a defined edge, quite different. 60 days total that I treated him, starting with the organics before getting into the antibiotics. It was a long time before signs other than that 'plaque appeared. I'm always trying to not under or over react but it seems once you know there's something you HAVE to hit it hard or you can lose your chance at it. The one thing I'd do differently is not to go with Kanamycin as a first action, but go right to the Kanamycin + Furan 2 to cover more bases with the first shot. Going just with Kanamycin didn't do the trick and I think he just built a resistance to it so when I did add the Furan2 it wasn't effective. So then had to go to Fungus Cure, meaning an additional chemical, more taxing to the fish etc). When I first read about the Furan2 + Kanamycin combo, it struck me a bit like shot-gunning which I try to avoid, but I see now it's really about taking your best shot while you can. It makes sense. So ya, learned lots. Ok, so... the filtration on Xochi's 5.5G tank was an Aquaclear Mini (now called a 20) which they say is geared to 20G max, filtering 100gph. Because bettas struggle with water flow, I devised a method to filter the tank while sparing him the strong current. Pics below: Filter with foam sponges, ammo chips/biomax etc, plus a piece of foam fitted to the downspout and sitting tight under where the water flows into the tank, and down on the tip of the downspout a cylinder of foam (mostly to save tails from getting sucked in). Second pic, the lid when in place fits around the filter and holds the foam in place so water flows vertically downwards into the tank through the foam which slows the flow. These extra pieces of foam also serve as extra bio-filter. I'd rinse those at water changes, the ones in the filter in between. Someone mentioned too that I was likely doing too many water changes? I was taught weekly was the thing or I'm a bad mother, so I've always done them like clockwork. Should I be waiting and testing for nitrates to reach a certain level and letting the filter get mulmier (if thats a word) before rinsing to strengthen the biofilter? If so, what level? Btw am going to set up the two now empty 5.5gallon tanks to cycle them fish-free as I've never done that, introducing minerals etc also... and have them ready BEFORE the next impulse betta purchase. Any reason not to reuse gravel if treated with bleach and Prime? Attachments:
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 12, 2014 17:09:58 GMT -5
Thanks @devonsgard! I'm just not someone who should be allowed to name fish. Once they have a name, that's it, they're part of the family! So ya, lousy weekend around here fish-wise especially as the following day a new betta (<1 month) suddenly took a turn and died. I may post separately for that one (Calypso lol), in case anyone has some insight on it. What another one! That one must have had weak genetics. They were not in the same tank right? So it can't be the same water issues... I sure know more for another time. Like when you have conflicting/mismatched signs, means you have multiple diseases!. Re: Columnaris, learned you don't always get the classic saddle back. The white belly is a symptom. I'd thought at an early stage this was just from being expanded due to constipation. When that first appeared, I'd fasted him and fed peas a couple times and he produced white poop once (normal but white). A sign of internal infection I gather, not just lack of food. (?) The misty fibrous growth that filled one gill was clearly Saprolegnia to me, but what I never suspected as that was the very first symptom of the 'plaque' by his pectoral fin/gill. That was opaque with a defined edge, quite different. 60 days total that I treated him, starting with the organics before getting into the antibiotics. It was a long time before signs other than that 'plaque appeared. I'm always trying to not under or over react but it seems once you know there's something you HAVE to hit it hard or you can lose your chance at it. The one thing I'd do differently is not to go with Kanamycin as a first action, but go right to the Kanamycin + Furan 2 to cover more bases with the first shot. Going just with Kanamycin didn't do the trick and I think he just built a resistance to it so when I did add the Furan2 it wasn't effective. So then had to go to Fungus Cure, meaning an additional chemical, more taxing to the fish etc). When I first read about the Furan2 + Kanamycin combo, it struck me a bit like shot-gunning which I try to avoid, but I see now it's really about taking your best shot while you can. It makes sense. So ya, learned lots. Ya more of a wide spread treatment at a good dose is what is best. It's just like treatment of people, where sometimes they don't have the best idea what the issues is, but they have a couple guesses, because of the symptoms. Carl has been doing this for so long, I usual follow his direction. It's given me the best results so far. so... the filtration on Xochi's 5.5G tank was an Aquaclear Mini (now called a 20) which they say is geared to 20G max, filtering 100gph. Because bettas struggle with water flow, I devised a method to filter the tank while sparing him the strong current. Pics below: Filter with foam sponges, ammo chips/biomax etc, plus a piece of foam fitted to the downspout and sitting tight under where the water flows into the tank, and down on the tip of the downspout a cylinder of foam (mostly to save tails from getting sucked in). Second pic, the lid when in place fits around the filter and holds the foam in place so water flows vertically downwards into the tank through the foam which slows the flow. These extra pieces of foam also serve as extra bio-filter. I'd rinse those at water changes, the ones in the filter in between. So it looks like you made your own pre-filter and a way to slow the flow on the outtake. Good thinking. If those sponges can hold a good amount of good bacteria (aka mulm), then they are a good deal, not to mention, they also slow the flow. They do sell larger sponge pre-filters for HOB. They hold a huge amount of good bacteria, keep the HOB clean, and slow the flow. The more debris that builds up in the sponge, the slower the flow and helps maintain a healthy nitrogen cycle for the tank. (turning ammonia into nitrates...) Someone mentioned too that I was likely doing too many water changes? I was taught weekly was the thing or I'm a bad mother, so I've always done them like clockwork. Should I be waiting and testing for nitrates to reach a certain level and letting the filter get mulmier (if thats a word) before rinsing to strengthen the biofilter? If so, what level? If you have an est. nitrogen cycle in the tank, you can go longer between water changes. You would know by testing the water and if you are testing nitrites and ammonia, you don't have a est. nitrogen cycle. Your filter should be maintaining this nitrogen cycle. If yours is not, I would recommend that Filter Max sponge pre-filter for a high amount of debris to collect. Here's some information. Filter Max Pre-FiltersNitrogen Cycle BasicsMore in-depth Nitrogen CycleBtw am going to set up the two now empty 5.5gallon tanks to cycle them fish-free as I've never done that, introducing minerals etc also... and have them ready BEFORE the next impulse betta purchase. Good idea, but it sounds like it's going to give you a good reason to bring home another betta  I don't blame you. I came home with a new betta just a couple weeks ago, cause I couldn't help it. Any reason not to reuse gravel if treated with bleach and Prime? Should be good. Let it dry out too. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 1:05:43 GMT -5
What another one! That one must have had weak genetics. They were not in the same tank right? So it can't be the same water issues... No, not in the same tank. The second one I'd barely had a month. He was stunning, but weak and I felt he just needed some tlc so they agreed to a big 'compassion' discount and I brought him home cause like you said " i just couldn't help myself'. Worked for a couple weeks to bring him around and did. He was amazing for a few days, then something went off and he just went downhill over a couple days and I lost him - the day after the first. No disease symptoms, just environmental I gather but I'd like to understand what happened if possible. I'll pull my notes and do a separate post on him. I have a couple little videos on my phone, wish I could post them here but I don't think so, they're not on an url.
(sorry bout the red btw... either I need Quoting for Dummies or it just doesn't work on an imac...? This is my solution Ya more of a wide spread treatment at a good dose is what is best. It's just like treatment of people, where sometimes they don't have the best idea what the issues is, but they have a couple guesses, because of the symptoms. Carl has been doing this for so long, I usual follow his direction. It's given me the best results so far. I've always felt it becomes a slippery slope once you're into the antibiotics.. b/c it has gone that way for me... but I see now the wide target approach is best because your chances diminish when you go slowly with organics or cautiously with one drug, and the infection gets worse and/or the fish builds resistance. Kind of a go big or go home deal, really lol.
I realized a huge problem with dosing powdered meds with a small tank. When there's a combo of drugs in the mix, it's impossible to divide into smaller doses and get the right ratio of each drug. You would have to mix a full pack with water in a (usually) 10 gallon tank and then use the volume you need of that. Crazy to have to keep a spare 10g tank on hand just for that
So it looks like you made your own pre-filter and a way to slow the flow on the outtake. Good thinking. If those sponges can hold a good amount of good bacteria (aka mulm), then they are a good deal, not to mention, they also slow the flow. They do sell larger sponge pre-filters for HOB. They hold a huge amount of good bacteria, keep the HOB clean, and slow the flow. The more debris that builds up in the sponge, the slower the flow and helps maintain a healthy nitrogen cycle for the tank. (turning ammonia into nitrates...) I have similar sponges IN the filter and can get more for the tank side. I just thought a build up of debris wasn't necessary for the presence of bacteria and would just clog the filter and reduce effective filtering, and on the down spout would put extra strain on the motor and maybe wear it out quickly. I also expected 'dirty' filters IN the tank would just release back into the tank. Xochi's tank was well cycled and levels showed it was ok, but I want all the strength and stability I can get, so all good to know!
So then the amount of mulm you want is as much as the sponges can hold without shutting down the filter?''
*** I expected to hear what I'm doing is bad because it's unhealthy to not have more current in the water column.... ?
If you have an est. nitrogen cycle in the tank, you can go longer between water changes. You would know by testing the water and if you are testing nitrites and ammonia, you don't have a est. nitrogen cycle. Your filter should be maintaining this nitrogen cycle. If yours is not, I would recommend that Filter Max sponge pre-filter for a high amount of debris to collect. Here's some information. Sounds good. So either bad advise or misunderstood cause I always thought the goal was keep it 'clean' beyond being cycled. I tried to switch up Xochi's tank to a sponge filter as a fix for the despised water current. Tried to muffle the air pump noise/vibration, but he lasted a couple days then chewed off most of his tail. Good idea, but it sounds like it's going to give you a good reason to bring home another betta I don't blame you. I came home with a new betta just a couple weeks ago, cause I couldn't help it. LOL what a sleuth you are, you're onto me! Oh, there could be a new red betta in my near future, and one just like poor Calypso soon as I can find one
What kind of betta twisted your arm to take him home? Pics? |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 13, 2014 18:09:00 GMT -5
Ok, now I understand about this second betta. What a big heart you have. Taking a betta that was already on a down hill. At least you tried and give a good home for the final part of his life. I'm sure he was in a little bowl, so he was much better off with you. It's fine about the quoting. You just need to put the time stamp quote at the beginning of what you are quoting, which is in the two [ ] and end it with a [/quote]. You do it for each section you are quoting. What you're doing is fine though. I just follow Carl's suggestions for treatment. He has been doing it for so long and knows what give the best results. He kept fish as a business, so if his fish were passing away, he was throwing away money. If you're parameters are staying in check now with the sponges you have, I would say that's great. You would just want to test on a weekly bases, and that would give you some idea on when to do the water change. Doing the water change weekly isn't the bad part, it would be if you rinsed the filter and sponges off each time you did the water change. They are really just to keep the ammonia and nitrites down, so if your filter is doing it for you, you don't have to do regular weekly changes. It's not doing much for the tank. Just don't rinse away your good bacteria. Once the filter starts to loss flow, that's when I would clean the sponges. If that's every 4 weeks, then water changes can wait that long. Just just your parameters to make sure everything is ok. Keeping the N. cycle going is going to be less stress on the fish. The flower flow is not the worst and I understand why you are doing it. Some people keep tanks with no flow, so some is better than none. Some people say to keep a better flow so the disease had a hard time landing the fish, but this is just one way of battling disease. If you are keeping healthy water conditions, flow is not the most important. I have plants in my tank, so I keep a higher flow. But if I didn't I would only have a flow that turned my aquarium over like 5 times. You have a filter thats turning your aquarium over like 15-20X, so it's not as slow as you think. Lastly I try. I brought home a simple veil tail. I saw a Delta I really liked, but he was a little out of my price range at the time... Anyways. Hope you are well after your eventful week. Devon |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 16:42:54 GMT -5
Ok, now I understand about this second betta. What a big heart you have. Taking a betta that was already on a down hill. At least you tried and give a good home for the final part of his life. I'm sure he was in a little bowl, so he was much better off with you. Nah, he didn't come in weak and go down.. just weak, you know all they go through... he rallied and was great for a bit.. I know I did 'something' and caused his demise.. I will post on it tonight...
It's fine about the quoting. You just need to put the time stamp quote at the beginning of what you are quoting, which is in the two [ ] and end it with a . You do it for each section you are quoting. What you're doing is fine though. Again, 'it's me'.. thanks for trying.. I'll work on that when I have time
I just follow Carl's suggestions for treatment. He has been doing it for so long and knows what give the best results. He kept fish as a business, so if his fish were passing away, he was throwing away money. If you're parameters are staying in check now with the sponges you have, I would say that's great. You would just want to test on a weekly bases, and that would give you some idea on when to do the water change. Doing the water change weekly isn't the bad part, it would be if you rinsed the filter and sponges off each time you did the water change. They are really just to keep the ammonia and nitrites down, so if your filter is doing it for you, you don't have to do regular weekly changes. It's not doing much for the tank. Just don't rinse away your good bacteria. I've only ever rinsed the filter sponges halfway between WC's, but now as you say I should, I will widen the time between changes
You have a filter thats turning your aquarium over like 15-20X, so it's not as slow as you think. Enlightening.. thanks.
Lastly I try. I brought home a simple veil tail. I saw a Delta I really liked, but he was a little out of my price range at the time... LOVE VEIL TAILS
Anyways. Hope you are well after your eventful week. Devon THANKS.. post on other fish to follow.. really need to know what I did there... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 21:50:16 GMT -5
So, now that the dust has settled a bit on this, I'm trying.. hoping to draw some conclusions about it.
I gather Columnaris and Saprolegnia are both bacteria which reside to some extent in aquariums and their becoming a problems depends on the opportunities they have, including environmental conditions and also susceptibility in the fish. If that's accurate, I'm tending to conclude that little Xochi was just older and so less resilient. I think with the appearance of the 'plaque' at his pectoral fin, it seemed he was resisting something for some time before it finally overwhelmed him. I don't think there was much 'wrong' with the tank generally. I think I opened the floodgate for the Columnaris when he got the 'guck' on his fin tip, and thinking it might be parasitic, I raised the temp. to 84º briefly. It was 3 days later he became very languid and then all got worse from there.
One thing I never really questioned but would appreciate any thoughts on: When I got him, he looked as in my 'profile' pic above.. body smooth, no bumps. If you look back to pics posted throughout this post, you can see several bumps right at the edge of his body where his fins join. Just bumps, no discolouration etc. I'd always thought that was just a coarser look coming with age, but if anyone know otherwise, please let me know.. thanks.
Also, a question for Carl, just for going forward with other tanks. You gave me the dose for REPLENISH for a 1 gallon tank and I introduced that on Aug. 6. 1/10 tsp per gallon, equating the regular dose they give for a 10 gallon. I notice in your article you mention it's best to start with a 1/4 dose as using the full dose full can be stressful. So I'm just curious whether I should have been starting with a 1/4 dose or did Xochi's circumstance suggest the full dose was advisable right away? I can't imagine this aspect could have changed the ultimate outcome given everything, I just need to know for future use. * Also for general use, you'd said full dose at water change, and half dose in between. By that did you mean once halfway between changes, or every day... or? I gather I can't really measure the level of active minerals, so I'm just hoping it's kind of a more is better situation and I don't need to worry too much about over dosing...?
Thanks again Carl and Devon for all your invaluable assistance and patience through this whole saga.
seapetal111 / Maggie
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 15, 2014 17:37:22 GMT -5
So, now that the dust has settled a bit on this, I'm trying.. hoping to draw some conclusions about it. I gather Columnaris and Saprolegnia are both bacteria which reside to some extent in aquariums and their becoming a problems depends on the opportunities they have, including environmental conditions and also susceptibility in the fish. If that's accurate, I'm tending to conclude that little Xochi was just older and so less resilient. I think with the appearance of the 'plaque' at his pectoral fin, it seemed he was resisting something for some time before it finally overwhelmed him. I don't think there was much 'wrong' with the tank generally. I think I opened the floodgate for the Columnaris when he got the 'guck' on his fin tip, and thinking it might be parasitic, I raised the temp. to 84º briefly. It was 3 days later he became very languid and then all got worse from there. This sounds spot on... One thing I never really questioned but would appreciate any thoughts on: When I got him, he looked as in my 'profile' pic above.. body smooth, no bumps. If you look back to pics posted throughout this post, you can see several bumps right at the edge of his body where his fins join. Just bumps, no discolouration etc. I'd always thought that was just a coarser look coming with age, but if anyone know otherwise, please let me know.. thanks. My understanding was that he was not very old. Something like 9 months to year? Carl might have a better opinion of this, but I think it's him battling against the disease and his body deteriorating or just not being super healthy because of it. IMO though. When Carl gets back from vacation, he might have some more insight. Also, a question for Carl, just for going forward with other tanks. You gave me the dose for REPLENISH for a 1 gallon tank and I introduced that on Aug. 6. 1/10 tsp per gallon, equating the regular dose they give for a 10 gallon. I notice in your article you mention it's best to start with a 1/4 dose as using the full dose full can be stressful. So I'm just curious whether I should have been starting with a 1/4 dose or did Xochi's circumstance suggest the full dose was advisable right away? I can't imagine this aspect could have changed the ultimate outcome given everything, I just need to know for future use. * Also for general use, you'd said full dose at water change, and half dose in between. By that did you mean once halfway between changes, or every day... or? I gather I can't really measure the level of active minerals, so I'm just hoping it's kind of a more is better situation and I don't need to worry too much about over dosing...? Carls out, so I'll give a stab at it. Check the GH and if it's really low, you would want to slowly raise it by the 1/4 dose. It's the shift from low to high that will be stressful. I believe your GH is 180, so a full dose is fine. And it would be one 1/2 dose between the two water changes. Not everyday. People can dose it with a drip system, but that's complicated. I enjoy the Wonder Shells, so I don't really worry about dosing. The mineralization is GH. More information about GH. www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/Thanks again Carl and Devon for all your invaluable assistance and patience through this whole saga. Welcome Maggie. I hope it's helping. |
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 15, 2014 18:08:00 GMT -5
Here's that betta I picked up the other day. It was actually for a classroom I teach in. That's why we were on a budget. It was a betta one of the girls in my class picked out. She really like the white and when the light rights him just right, there is green in the scales. I'm going to be posting my own thread on some concerns I have about him. He has some weird black markings towards the fins and on just one side of him. He also has some skin issues on the head, which I think is a mineralization issue from the store (petco). The black is something I haven't dealt with yet.  |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 0:08:41 GMT -5
I'd had him 9 months. Certainly not a baby, but no signs of considerable age either. I believe those bumps began appearing well before the suspicious 'plaque'.
Carls out, so I'll give a stab at it. Check the GH and if it's really low, you would want to slowly raise it by the 1/4 dose. It's the shift from low to high that will be stressful. I believe your GH is 180, so a full dose is fine. And it would be one 1/2 dose between the two water changes. Not everyday. People can dose it with a drip system, but that's complicated. I enjoy the Wonder Shells, so I don't really worry about dosing. The mineralization is GH. More information about GH. www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/Great little article, thx.. especially like the KH description
Yes, GH=180. Sounds like you understand that as some indication of the presence of a reasonable level of minerals. Just scratching my head a little because what I was getting from Carl's articles was that it's not a real reflection of charged ions present (ie battery with parts but no charge) It's ok, I'll keep reading, fog will clear eventually
I do intend to get the wonder shells, just have to wait a bit now but need to get MB and PP as well and wondering if I can be fairly sure those will make it through to me...? Did pick up some pillow moss on sale today |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2014 0:17:31 GMT -5
Here's that betta I picked up the other day. It was actually for a classroom I teach in. That's why we were on a budget. It was a betta one of the girls in my class picked out. She really like the white and when the light rights him just right, there is green in the scales. Thanks for posting. He's a cutie! I've only seen one white here and he was spoken for. He'd be fun to feed spirulina soaked pellets to, like with my yellow one you'd see them in him!
I'm going to be posting my own thread on some concerns I have about him. He has some weird black markings towards the fins and on just one side of him. He also has some skin issues on the head, which I think is a mineralization issue from the store (petco). The black is something I haven't dealt with yet. I'll watch for that.
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Post by angelminx on Aug 16, 2014 1:32:12 GMT -5
The betta I was planning on getting at Petco today (he was still there) was also white like that but he had more grayish-black on him, with a little red along the edges of the "black", but the markings on his tail (and some on his body) was more marbled. He also had a "black" blaze on his head. I say "was" going to get him...I saw him a couple of days ago, and checked to see if they still had him when I got to the store today, but he was hardly moving. I couldn't see anything wrong with him, but when I checked him again (after looking the others over) he was lying on his side; tried to rouse him by tapping on the cup, but nothing. Checked again 1/2 an hour later, and he was still in the same position--definitely dead.
They had another one that I liked that was a "Copper" Delta-tail Dragonscale. He was a metallic violet-pewter color, with blue eyes--but he was 20 bucks (minus the 30% off on all the fish Friday and Saturday), and I had to choose between him and an Electric Blue Ram for the same price. I wish I could have gotten them both. After agonizing over the decision, I finally went with the Ram.
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Or please consider a donation, even just $5 helps. If even 25% of users of this information donated just $5, it would be more income than one year of sales (currently less than 1/1000 of a % donate)
He's supposed to be dosed til noon tomorrow (Friday)
) 
I don't blame you. I came home with a new betta just a couple weeks ago, cause I couldn't help it.