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Post by Carl on Jul 7, 2014 9:38:41 GMT -5
Sorry to word this in a way think you are way off base What I meant is the pH should be the parameter that falls into place after adjusting other parameters. So after adjusting KH, along with others such as nitrites, nitrates, etc., I usually find the pH will stabilize. It is noteworthy that a healthy nitrogen cycle will produce acids that will slowly affect your pH downward as your aquarium matures. I will agree that 8.4 is way off the scale of what is normal for many freshwater aquarium community aquariums and your goal of a pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8.0 is good. I would come at this from the KH side of the equation and also allow the tank to mature (which includes regular cleanings, but not over cleanings which is something so many persons are convinced is the way to go). Flick, As you noted at the beginning of this thread: "a closed system in which a relatively heavy fish load and dense planting produced stable “aged” water and optimal health for both plants and fish. From ’66 to ’78 my 5g, 10g and 20g tanks produced dense jungles of plants and all my fish lived long lives". Use modern methods and supplements to compliment what you are looking to re-achieve rather than the other way around (if this makes sense) I am not saying to not use a UV, some of the supplements we have talked about, and decent filtration; just use these in compliment to your aquarium and it will settle into stable and healthy parameters. Kinda difficult for me to explain, but think of it also as an art where you use man made equipment to compliments your artistic skills. Ditto an aquarium, in fact I have seen this over the years that persons can have all the tools for aquarium keeping and they focus on the tools but still lack the skill and art of aquarium keeping. I hope all this makes sense? OK, this makes more sense! And yes focus on the KH, but also give it time as a healthy and mature tank will also produce acids that will slowly "burn off" KH Most definitely yes The flag fish should be an easy fish to keep the parameters within an acceptable range with as little of input. I have kept these fish many years back and found little was needed other that normal water quality control and input of mineral Cations (I used a Wonder shell for this) Carl
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Post by flickford on Jul 7, 2014 11:13:26 GMT -5
Very cool! I get what you're saying - if keeping fish is too focused on the technical it's basically not an approach that appeals to me - I would rather try to see what a closed system can do on it's own and learn why - rather than to micromanage it. What people may not know who are checking out this thread is that I worked closely with AAP over a several year period to design just the right system that's not high-maintenance, but not exactly low-tech. The hang-up on my end was a series of cascading water problems - well pump failures, treatment system breakdowns, my former well drying up, drilling a new well and installing a new water system - not to mention cash flow issues. But now it is all coming together - I'm actually not used to good news on the water front - so this is a new experience but I'll go with the flow (pun intended)! For anyone who is interested I've attached a pdf of the design. I also worked very closely with Riparium Supply to pick out plant species that will do fine in the water parameters it seems we have a good chance of hitting on the nose. I can't wait to get started!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 17:56:41 GMT -5
Sounds like 1:1 ratio would be best. The final drift came together very nicely. It will awesome to see how it comes together in real life.
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Post by angelminx on Jul 7, 2014 23:22:40 GMT -5
Very nice!
I would love to be able to do something like that, but I have to be satisfied with what I've got. I live in an apartment, and they have a rule (now) that you can only have 2 pets. [That kills me, because I am an animal person with the desire to be "surrounded" by animals, like I was when I was growing up.] I have a cat, and (an aquarium is now considered a "pet"--not when I moved in though) my 55G aquarium. That's the largest size they allow, and luckily when I moved in, that was the tank I had, and not my "dream tank" of 75G.
They are letting me keep the 10G quarantine tank, but then I had that when I moved in. I also had 3 other tanks, which I don't have anymore (includind a 2G Betta setup), one was the 15G which was the very 1st tank I got--back in the 70's. It sprung a leak about 3 years ago. I also had a 30G that had had my 9 year-old female Oscar, but it, too, sprung a leak (about 10 years ago) and I had to move the poor Oscar to the 15G to finish out her (unfortunately shortened) life, because the 55G had a full S. Am. Community that had been in place for about 20 years or so. [Obviously, the occupants changed over time, but that was a gradual dying-off and replacing of "tenants".]
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Post by flickford on Jul 11, 2014 23:58:19 GMT -5
RO Water…Planted Tank - Round 2 Test Results
Here is the follow up testing by the well water company of both the tap and RO water (kitchen) and the 2 waters mixed in various ratios. They tested for pH, TDS, "hardness" in grains per gallon (0-3 grains/very soft-soft), and found minimal amounts of Iron <0.1, Manganese <0.02, sulphur <0.0, and nitrates <1.0.
I re-tested the water with an API kit for KH and GH.
This round of tests revealed a slightly higher pH & KH and a lower GH than the first tests:
Pure RO Water: pH 9.0, TDS 40ppm, KH 2º 35.7ppm, "Hardness" 0-1 gpg under 17.1 ppm, GH 0-1º under 17.86ppm Pure Tapwater: pH 9.0, TDS 502ppm, KH 21º 375ppm, "Hardness" 1 gpg 17.1 ppm, GH 2º 35.7ppm
1:1 RO/Tap: pH 9.0, TDS 312ppm, KH 10º 179ppm, "Hardness" 0-1 gpg under 17.1 ppm, GH - 1-2º 17.8ppm - 35.7ppm
2:1 RO/Tap: pH 9.0 (didn't budge!), TDS - 230ppm, KH 7º-8º 125ppm-143ppm, "Hardness" 0-1 gpg under 17.1 ppm, GH - 0-1º under 17.86ppm
3:1 RO/Tap: pH - 8.0 (finally moved), TDS - 182ppm, KH 6º 107ppm, "Hardness" 0-1 gpg under 17.1 ppm, GH - 0-1º under 17.86ppm
At 3:1 RO/Tap I get a perfect KH and decent pH! Shouldn't I start with that? I will eventually be batching 45 gallons all at once to start up. I assume I'm aiming for a GH between 5º-7º 90ppm-125ppm? So initially I'm mixing 2 capfuls of Replenish to every 10 gallons, right?
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Post by Carl on Jul 12, 2014 10:31:52 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing the results!
While I have no answer as to why your pH is 9.0 in all but one test, I still believe your pH will slowly drift down once your tank matures. As well, one number did not make since, that is the pure RO had a pH of 9.0 while the 3:1 RO/Tap had 8?
As I noted earlier, I did/do not use pH as a gauge of initial water quality since its logarithmic scale is different than nitrates, ammonia, KH, GH. Also, I did a quick check of DI water I have on hand for batteries and making medicated Wonder Shells and it was 0 on GH, KH, ammonia, nitrites, along with a pH of 6.8, which is what I expected from past test results.
The use of 3:1 RO/Tap water should be OK, especially if you were going with amazon River fish; this based on your KH numbers. However based on keeping fish such as Flag Fish, I think the 2:1 or even 1:1 is still perfectly fine if not better.
No, not for the fish you are planning to keep. Also, even with amazon River Fish; in closed system a lower number that drifts slightly higher from mineral Cation input is to be expected.
This depends upon what you are trying to achieve. As well I like to leave room for the slow addition of more minerals whether it be a very slow drip of Replenish or Wonder Shell. Even with the 3:1 water, I would probably start with one capful to 10 gallons
Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 12, 2014 12:18:11 GMT -5
Are you doing a couple tests to make sure these numbers are the real parameters? That is a little weird about the pH, even though you shouldn't be mixing the RO to achieve a certain pH value. I would say go with the 2:1 or still the 1:1 and use buffers to correct the pH, along with the Wonder Shell to raise the GH. You want a higher GH than 90-125. With a wonder shell in my tank, I getting a reading off the test strip, which is over 180 ppm. You want something this high or even higher. Adding a wonder shell and as the tank matures, that number will "drift" up. Carl has proven the benefit of these higher mineral catons in the tank. This would be the same as all the minerals coming off the mountains into the Amazon river. btw, helpful hit, if you decide you want to swim in the Amazon, make sure to drag your feet with each step, that way you wont step on any String-Rays. You'll push them off before stepping on them. They don't take to kindly to people stepping on them
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Post by flickford on Jul 12, 2014 19:40:47 GMT -5
Yeah I know the test results seem weird but they're not - I posted this earlier in the thread… From a California RO Water Purifier Filter Manufacturer: "Reverse osmosis filtration may or may not reduce the pH level of water at a noticeable amount. The pH difference after the RO depends on the composition of your input water source as well as the amount of gases such as CO2 in your local water supply. The Southern California water sources used in our tests were slightly alkaline with an average pre-treatment rating of 8.12 pH. After filtration through our RO systems, the resulting pH averaged 8.06. Our results confirmed the conclusions of others in the scientific community –the reverse osmosis treatment process has very minimal effect on water pH chemistry."
Yeah we tested it several times - fresh mixed and after it sat for 10 minutes - same results - the pH didn't budge until we tested a 3:1 ratio… Again multiple sources I've read say pH readings of RO water are unreliable in some cases and I have very extreme water parameters.
I'm not using the RO to hit the pH - I understand the water's pH won't be stable without balancing GH & KH. Walstad recommends: "I would aim to keep the GH in the right range for the fish you want to keep. Next keep the KH roughly equal to the GH. Once these parameters are decided on, research the plants that suit these conditions. Unless you are at the extreme end of the scale (extremely soft or really hard) you ought to be able to keep probably 90% of the common aquatic plants."
I'm cool with a high KH, and I will lower the pH with the buffers - but I guess I'm not completely understanding how much the Replensish raises the GH - if one capful per 10g is good for a 2.8 dGH rise (50ppm) you're staying let the Wonder Shell bring the GH the rest of the way up to 180ppm or to whatever the plants and fish need and use? If that's the way it works more or less I'm cool with that.
Just keep in mind I'm looking to hit reasonable middle ground plus or minus with the following parameters: Florida Flagfish (from Seriously Fish): Temperature: 18 – 30 °C, pH: 6.5 – 8.5, Hardness: 36 – 357 ppm, the Flagfish has the widest range of water parameters of the plants and fish I want to keep.
The third and final tests I'm going to do with the TMC V2 Pure Advanced RO unit and the tap water from the fish room. I'm also getting a digital pH meter and a digital sodium meter. Then I'll start batching up some waters and see what I can get.
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Post by Carl on Jul 13, 2014 9:59:22 GMT -5
While I have never performed any controlled tests myself, especially sine I never have used pH as a determining factor of RO water quality, I too have noticed no change in pH from RO, only DI. I still just do not quite see how all the pH numbers were consistant but for one. This is where I might have a respectful, but minor disagreement with Walstad. I start with KH, and then lower or up GH to within a "RANGE" but not necessarily a target for GH, noting that in a closed system maintaining GH at very low target levels can deprive fish of ESSENTIAL mineral Cations ina closed system (this is based on controlled tests I performed about 20 years ago now). From my Aquarium Chemistry Article: "Finally it is important as you also want to note that the Amazon River starts high in the Andes Mountains where it picks up a lot of minerals only to be buffer “down” by organics such as peat and bio-decay (as well as dilution from copious amounts of rain water). Bio decay will also add nitric acid which will further lower pH (providing you do not over clean the substrate). Because of this, do not try and lower GH (only carbonate hardness), calcium in particular as this is still an important element for osmoregulation in Discus and other Amazonian fish as well (calcium aids in a reducing Redox as well!)."Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.htmlJust as with Alkaline Buffers, I have found the use of Replenish and similar products have a sweet spot where there IS NO one size fits all for most aquariums. So I would say use as much Replenish as it takes to bring your GH to a MINIMUM desired level, and no more. Generally a middle ground is what I always have aimed for too, since 85% of my clients did not have a species specific aquarium Carl
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Post by flickford on Jul 13, 2014 12:19:15 GMT -5
Yay! I am so close to diving in!
Possibly an under .5 pH shift for the first 2 tests? Undetectable by eyeballing color gradations using their test kit? I assume there was some shift - perhaps they use an imprecise test kit… whatever - no worries, I'm getting a digital pH meter.
OK - Recap: Start with 45g of the 1:1 RO/Tap - it tests at 10º 180ppm KH - right in the middle of the range! Because there are no reliable GH readings for the tap water (between 1º-2º) add 4.5 capfuls of Replenish and go with whatever it is. Buffer Water to a target zone between 7.5-8.0 pH. And finally toss what size (or size piece of a) Wonder Shell in the tank - 1/4 of a medium shell?
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Post by Carl on Jul 13, 2014 14:25:09 GMT -5
Pretty much yes. I will amend it to target your KH and then make some minor adjustments to KH as your tank matures to get withing a reasonable range for your pH. As I noted in my last post, normal bio processes will produce acids (Redox Oxidation) that will slowly deplete carbonates (KH) and then slowly reduce your pH, this said added acid buffers (such as SeaChem's) can be added to quicken the process. Pillow Moss, Indian Almond Leaves, Peat, Driftwoods, etc. can help with naturally speed up the process. Further Reference (Aquarium Chemistry; Lowering pH, Amazon River Biotope): www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#amazonAs for the Wonder Shell, 1/4 a Medium Wonder Shell s a small but good starting point. 1 full Medium Wonder Shell (1/2 dose) might be acceptable too, but I would go with your plan. Carl
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 14, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -5
(clap)-this is me clapping
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