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Post by flickford on Jul 5, 2014 14:36:38 GMT -5
About My Aquarist Experience I successfully kept planted community tanks in the ‘60s-‘70s back when all the equipment was pretty basic. The best filtration had low flows and the best lights had a low output compared to today. The philosophy then that worked so well for me was all about “the balanced aquarium”, a closed system in which a relatively heavy fish load and dense planting produced stable “aged” water and optimal health for both plants and fish. From ’66 to ’78 my 5g, 10g and 20g tanks produced dense jungles of plants and all my fish lived long lives.
In the late ‘80s and early ‘90s I went the high filtration, VHO lighting, light fish load and heavy water change route and had abysmal results with plants and just OK results with fish health in planted community tanks. The tanks looked sparkling clean but the only plants that survived were the bombproof ferns and such - not very satisfying. After investigating CO2 systems I abandoned the hobby for economic and esthetic reasons.
Now decades later I understand what worked and what didn’t work and why in large part due to reading Walstad and reading up about other low-tech systems, the benefits and advantages of ripariums and “dirted” tanks. I’m on a mission to bring back “the balanced aquarium” experience I had in my youth. And I think I have a pretty good plan.
The Plan I’m not locked into simulating any specific biotope type but I’m interested in temperate/tropical Native American fish and plants that are hardy and tolerant of a wide set of parameters. I do have a wish list of flora and fauna but I’m not locked into it.
The set-up could be described as a semi-low-tech planted riparium/aquarium. After a lot of patient consultation provided by Carl (thanks!) and the staff at AAP (thanks!) I’ve purchased a nice LED lighting system and a submersible UV filter and now I’m joining the forum to seek advice on water chemistry (I have also purchased a Wonder Shell upon recommendation).
I have installed the best well water treatment system I can afford to deal with our unfortunate local water conditions – typical NE coastal colloidal clay/high sodium/high sulfate/high pH/soft water.
Preliminary chemical testing reveals I have marginally workable tap water cut with RO water. Results 3:1 RO/Tap – pH 8.4, dKH 5º/Alkalinity Tot (CaCO3) 89 ppm, GH/Hardness as CaCO3 17-21 ppm Results 1:1 RO/Tap – pH 8.4, dKH 10º/ Alkalinity Tot (CaCO3) 178 ppm, GH/Hardness as CaCO3 40-50 ppm
It’s still high pH soft water. For some reason the pH doesn’t budge no matter what the RO percentage. Could Sodium be the culprit? The RO unit should be removing the Sodium. I will lab test my new tap water to know what’s in there. Regardless I plan to use RO water only and proven additives to mineralize and buffer the water with a Wonder Shell "to constantly maintain essential mineral cations."
So I have some specific questions and I’m open to general suggestions.
What do people know about using the following with pure RO water: Seachem Replenish – Equilibrium – Aquavitro Mineralize? Advantages and disadvantages?
What do people know about using the following to adjust and/or stabilize the adulterated RO water’s pH: Seachem Neutral Regulator – Alkaline Buffer – Acid Buffer? Advantages and disadvantages?
In an ideal world I would like to add as few products as possible to achieve stable aquatic life sustaining water. In other words if I wind up with (not too) high pH hard water that is stable I would shoot for flora and fauna that thrive in those conditions rather than trying to target a specific pH all the time by adding more stuff to the water.
Thanks in advance, Flick
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 5, 2014 15:33:49 GMT -5
While I have not had to much experience with all of these products, I've always gone with suggestions made by Carl. He being in the hobby for so long and using so many different products, I let his experience work for my advantage. I have not had the need to use a RO machine, cause ever since I've had an aquarium, I've had well water that really comes fish ready right out of the ground. It does have a bit high pH than I would like, but nothing as high as the 8.4. It comes out about 7.5. Two things I've done to manage the higher pH. is natural acid buffers. In my planted 40 gallon FW tank, I have a nice large piece of drift wood that acts as a buffer and also is something for the fish to hide in and chew on. They love it. They find spots in and under it. I also use pillow moss in a HOB filter. I also have a low tech planted tank, that has great plant growth. So much so, I have to have regular trimmings. Some of the plants are newer, but are thick and hardy. I sometimes will lower my pH to a more natural reading, but don't too often, cause my 7.5 isn't too high for the community fish I have and I know it's not the high pH, but the swings that will cause harm. This is where my natural buffers come in and I never have any pH swings. When I do think about it, I use the SeaChem Acid and Alkaline buffer, which is easy enough and also has a C02 reaction I feel has value. Other than that, I just dose liquid Co2 daily and ferts once or twice a week. Both by SeaChem. I also have the Flourite and good LED lighting. I also have filtration that doesn't release my Co2, which is all part of the Walstad method. Really, I just stick to the recommendations Carl makes in all his work and it's like my aquarium was put on the fast track to being healthy and thriving. Here is my tank thread from when I first started my 40 gallon. I need to update my pictures and will soon. everythingaquatic.proboards.com/thread/3516/40-gallon-upgrade
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Post by flickford on Jul 5, 2014 16:16:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Devon, I used to have great water when I lived downstate and in NYC. NYC gets all the best water from upstate - we get local well water that can be hit or miss. So going with RO water and additives is brand new to me.
My concern with Replenish is that Seachem insists in many forums that "Replenish will put back all the necessary minerals and will establish your GH. However, because you plan on having a planted tank we recommend Equilibrium to replace the GH. Equilibrium does not contain sodium or chloride which can be harmful to plants at elevated amounts." But I also see in many forums how difficult it is to dissolve Equilibrium, and I'd like to know more about experiences with Replenish in planted tanks.
I will go with mineralized topsoil under the gravel. I'm really seeking a low-tech solution harkening back to my experiences long before dosing and CO2 injection, hyper filtration and massive water changes. I got phenomenal growth back then with "the balanced aquarium" method.
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Post by Carl on Jul 5, 2014 16:19:31 GMT -5
I will agree as to the simplicity of systems you used back in the 60s/70s, as this is when I started too However one variable has entered the picture you may no know about and that is how fish are sold, and even products are now developed and sold are far different from when I actually got into the industry in the 1970s Unfortunately we live in a world dominated by large stores that started in the 1980 such as the PetCos and has then morphed into internet sellers from Amazon to Dr. Foster & Smith. What is the impact? The impact is there was a nice wholesale and testing market for dry goods that did not simply dump junk products on the market. With Fish, breeders have prices dictated to them rather than the other way around so to meet these prices there is much more in breeding, over crowding of shipping bags, and more that all results in much less healthy stock. This happens with both freshwater and saltwater fish too. I have witnessed this change in quality of stock arriving at my business from fish suppliers. So my point is part of what you are seeing is a much weaker stock that may be part of the reason for lessors results. This is not to say that method is not important, but to make an accurate assessment of why results have changed this MUST be taken into account from my experience in the industry. As to products to use, I will give a few thoughts on each: *Aquavitro Mineralize; this is product by SeaChem that I have not used, but my old partner in the maintenance in the business has and states the product and results are similar to SeaChem Replenish. *Equilibrium; similar to Replenish and an older product, but without sodium chloride. My use of this product which was quite extensive over the years is not as good as with Replenish. Why? while the over use of sodium chloride to raise electrolytes is all said and good, correct use of Replenish followed by the use of Wonder Shells in 1/4-1/2 dose does a much better job at maintaining essential mineral Cation (positive electrolytes) than the use of Equilibrium. In the 90s as part of my establishing the basis for the Aquarium Disease Prevention article many test included use these products in comparison, and the long term results were better when a electrolyte formula was used that had some sodium chloride, then continued to add calcium and magnesium ions For more, please see the RO water use section of my Chemistry article: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#rodi*Replenish along with Wonder Shells would be my recommended method Product Resource: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#replenishwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html*Neutral Regulator; This is a product (& while I am a big fan of SeaChem), I have no use for both in practical use or based on science. I do not see the need whatsoever to add a product that utilizes phosphates to an aquarium. As well my practical use of this showed a less stable aquarium and more algae growth From my Chemistry Article: "I should also note that I do NOT find the use of Neutral pH regulators helpful for community aquariums. A more natural balance of carbonate buffers and acid buffers (or a mix both natural or supplemented buffers) is much better for long term keeping of a healthy aquarium chemistry equilibrium. These products often use phosphates which are not a healthy way to neutralize pH/KH, and in fact these products drive out ESSENTIAL calcium and magnesium ions!!
If an aquarium keeper finds a neutral regulator the only way to stabilize an aquarium pH/KH, this indicates that there are likely too many acid producing organics such as mulm in canister filters (especially in ceramic media) or under gravel, decor, etc. in the aquarium. Another proof of this unnatural stability is if a Wonder Shell is used, it will produce a "dust" on the bottom that is easily stirred into a cloud in the water (due to phosphates in these products). The bottom line is the use of Neutral Regulators such as API Proper pH 7 is not a healthy nor natural way to maintain good aquarium chemistry and my years of maintaining many 100's of aquariums has born this out!"Reference: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#kh*Alkaline Buffer & Acid Buffer; These are the product outside of natural acid and alkaline product I use most and recommend most. Generally though I would use these initially then find a sweet spot where I get into adding one or both ona time table. However often with natural buffers such as Pillow Moss, Driftwood, and natural bio processes, the need for Acid Buffer drops considerably after initial water use. This is where I would point out that your more simple system from years back had something going for it. As the aquarium system ages and water changes are less frequent, you should get a enough of these buffers accumulating whereby your pH and KH settle in at a lower number Product References: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#acidwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#alkalinewww.americanaquariumproducts.com/FrogMoss.htmlThis I do not have a positive answer for, but based on my memory of chemistry and a little digging to back this up, I would say no unless this the sodium was in the form of Sodium BiCarbonate This is an excellent direction to take your aquarium in my opinion/experience. Based on the number you provided, I think going with the 3:1 or maybe 2:1 RO/Tap is a good starting point and then utilize natural buffers to then slowly let your pH drop. Then keep water changes regular, but relatively infrequent and small (say 20-30% once every 6 weeks or even longer) Carl
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Post by flickford on Jul 5, 2014 17:48:50 GMT -5
OK you convinced me - I'll go the Replenish route with the 2 Buffers ready to be deployed one at a time or in combination - with the Wonder Shell as a permanent component. BUT Until I get a lab test of the tap water I'm reluctant to commit to mixing it with the RO water. I still don't understand why cutting the tap water with RO water has no effect on pH. With the pH locked in at 8.4, I'm mystified.
Laboratory water tests don't specify what kind of sodium is present in the water but being as it's from an ancient seabed it's probably just sodium chloride sea salt and that shouldn't affect pH. What I do know is that this sodium is in really high concentrations in the aquifers in my area - typically at 158 mg/L. So using tap water with elevated sodium and a product that uses sodium and chlorides does not seem like a good idea. That's why I'm leaning toward using just the RO water.
I guessing the protocol should be to add Replenish to the RO water and test it, I'm hoping the Replenish will allow the RO water to be tested for pH. Then I would see which buffer to utilize to get to a less extreme pH? Does that sound right?
I know tropical fish stocks have declined since the early days - I even saw it going on in the '90s. That is one reason I felt compelled to publish my book. As for my tank's future inhabitants I've found very reliable breeders and collectors of hardy Native American fish and some of their tank bred fish aren't many generations old. So I'm pretty sure I won't have the fish farm blues.
Of course the best laid plans seem to attract Mr. Murphy…
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Post by angelminx on Jul 6, 2014 0:00:53 GMT -5
I have a quick question about the use of RO water.
There is a small "fish store" (actually it's a hobby supply/fish store), that just opened up near me. They are VERY small, and specialize in SW fish. They will sell RO water to me for $1/gallon. It's not something I can afford very often, but are there special occassions where I should consider using it? Again, 55G low-medium light planted S. Am. tank with unstable KH (and for that reason, pH), a large piece of at least 10-year-old driftwood and not much worries about GH or Nitrate, no problems with Am/Nitrite, and as of the last time I was able to reliably test, no Phosphate problems. I am working on the Aeromanas and Cyanobacteria problems.
You also mentioned to flickford about the CO2 reation between SeaChem's Alkaline and Acid buffers. Does the same reaction happen with just the Alkaline buffer and the acid production from the driftwood?
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2014 11:24:07 GMT -5
The purpose of "cutting" tap water is to lower measurable mineral or carbonate quantities.
The pH scale is not the same as the measurement of Carbonates in ppm or dKH. So cutting with 1:1 (or 50%) will in both theory and practice lower a KH of 100 to 50 1:3 (tap:RO) would lower this same water to 25 ppm KH
While this is a good point, I would have to think it that the sodium chloride has been washed out eons ago and it is something like sodium bicarbonate, as otherwise there is no logical explanation for your pH
It is also noteworthy is that those who argue against sodium in planted aquariums have never established at just what level it is a problem. I am not saying it is not a problem with certain amazon plants, but that the level it is harmful is much higher than assumed. I myself have not tested for this, only observations, however I have with GH which is why the same logic that was applied to GH seems to be applied to sodium
These same persons that argue against sodium in any form in planted aquariums are often the same persons who sound alarm bells on any level of GH, despite the fact levels such as 200 ppm are not dangerous and in fact often these attacks on any GH end up with no mineral Cations present in the closed aquarium environment.
Sorry to get a bit blunt, but this is a an area of "vague" aquarium keeping that others argue that gets under my skin as it is all based on assumptions, not facts. This is where I really miss the company "Aquatronics" as they dealt primarily in facts, not assumptions in their products and recommendations
Yes.
BTW, you also do not always need to add a full dose of Replenish, Equalibrium, ElectroRight, etc. to RO water if added to tap water. I have found that most every aquarium is unique and I would establish a protocol of how much of what and how often with each individual tank based on testing. As an aquarium ages, this too will often vary the input formula too.
Carl
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2014 11:30:37 GMT -5
You also mentioned to flickford about the CO2 reation between SeaChem's Alkaline and Acid buffers. Does the same reaction happen with just the Alkaline buffer and the acid production from the driftwood? Yes, the chemical reaction is the same, regardless of the trigger. In fact, the later would provide a more slow release of CO2 that just dumping the powders in the aquarium. This is where the natural tank Flickford is trying to establish has much appeal IMO Carl
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Post by angelminx on Jul 6, 2014 15:16:28 GMT -5
Is this CO2 the same that the CO2 indicator measures, and what about Excel? I use 1 capful of Excel/day for my 55G, but my indicator is usually blue (although there was one time that it was so pale it was hard to tell, but it looked like it might have been green). I tied to get on the site you listed for the drop checker, but no luck. I got the (?)Home page but that was it. Nothing I clicked on did anything. At the top of the page was a message that started out "Error 404--Algae Bloom on the Way..." But I'm not sure if that was the title of an article, or if it was telling me there was an error. Either way I didn't get anywhere.
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2014 16:14:32 GMT -5
Is this CO2 the same that the CO2 indicator measures, and what about Excel? I use 1 capful of Excel/day for my 55G, but my indicator is usually blue (although there was one time that it was so pale it was hard to tell, but it looked like it might have been green). I tied to get on the site you listed for the drop checker, but no luck. I got the (?)Home page but that was it. Nothing I clicked on did anything. At the top of the page was a message that started out "Error 404--Algae Bloom on the Way..." But I'm not sure if that was the title of an article, or if it was telling me there was an error. Either way I didn't get anywhere. That drop checker link in the Planted Aquarium article is up then down, but since I am referring to another website I cannot do anything about it Either way, the type of carbon used by Excel is not going to be measured by any of the tests I know of or have used Carl
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Post by angelminx on Jul 6, 2014 16:52:18 GMT -5
Thanks. I was just curious, because I don't use supplemental CO2; and according to my KH/pH readings I tend to be 3ppm or under according to the CO2 Concentrations Chart you provide. I'm slowly getting my KH up, but I'm going to have to start another thread on it one day.
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Post by flickford on Jul 6, 2014 17:31:40 GMT -5
Understood.
OK - I've researched the RO pH question - it does not in fact always lower tap water pH - it can - but - more often than not just takes on the tap water pH. Also it is not uncommon that meter tested RO water comes out pH 8.0 or higher for too many reasons to get into here. Only distilled water is a consistent pH 7.0.
From a California RO Water Purifier Company: "Reverse osmosis filtration may or may not reduce the pH level of water at a noticeable amount. The pH difference after the RO depends on the composition of your input water source as well as the amount of gases such as CO2 in your local water supply. Water pH is actually a very complicated subject involving water and open air chemistry.
We have done many laboratory tests on the effects of our RO systems on water pH composition. The Southern California water sources used in our tests were slightly alkaline with an average pre-treatment rating of 8.12 pH. After filtration through our RO systems, the resulting pH averaged 8.06. Our results confirmed the conclusions of others in the scientific community –the reverse osmosis treatment process has very minimal effect on water pH chemistry."
Got it.
My initial API tests in 1:1 RO/tap determined that the dKH was 5º and the GH between 17.9 and 35.8 ppm, the pH was 8.4. My initial tests in 3:1 ratios RO/tap have determined that the dKH was 10º and the GH between 35.8 - 53.7 ppm, the pH was 8.4. I'll test the 2:1 RO/tap later today I'll bet my pH is - wild guess - 8.4!!
Finally, once buffers are added to the water, an accurate pH measurement can be made and the pH can then be adjusted. End of story.
The Sodium (Phantom)
Since the type of "sodium" NY labs test for appears to be unspecified and since in the hobby it is unspecified how much "sodium" is too much for fish and plants - then let's assume that whatever type of "sodium" I (may or may not) have in whatever amount I have it in - is no problem. I'll defer on that point to you.
Incidentally I was planning to keep SE US Native fish and plants that are all tolerant of sodium chloride and that thrive in a wide set of conditions roughly: Temperature: 65–83°F, 6.5 – 8.2 pH, Hardness: 36 – 357 ppm.
I will press the laboratory tomorrow to tell me why kind of sodium they test for and if they know if sodium bicarbonate is in local aquifers. But I don't anticipate any problems moving forward coming from "sodium".
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Post by Carl on Jul 6, 2014 19:15:45 GMT -5
I will agree as to pH and RO versus DI water. However since chasing pH is often the start of many problems as I mention in my Aquarium Chemistry article, this is still not a major concern and why I find RO water is "good enough" for practical aquarium use; both FW AND SW. As a side note, when I initially began using anything more than tap water, I used DI water, not RO. While the water was more pure and certainly the only water I would ever top off my deep cycle flooded batteries, I found that in practical use, no difference in fish health. Since I provided contracts that not only provided for my service, but for free visits if the fish or other inhabitants had any issues, what I mostly worked on is a method that kept fish alive and healthy. So keeping fish alive and living long and healthy in particular with one contract that had 110 large aquariums where I was given a set budget to keep the aquariums going and replacing ANY AND ALL Fish came out of my pocket, it made good business sense to find methods of fish keeping that provided for this. This was the beginning of my experiments in 1978 Over the years, I found (as have others I have talked with in the professional aquarium keeping community), that chasing pH is not only a waste of time and effort, but actually ends up with more problems and in the end does NOT extend fish longevity. What did? Good Feeding, STABLE water parameters, a balanced Redox, good lighting, and UV Sterilization I discuss this more in this article about Aquarium Disease Prevention: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Disease.htmlI would also refer to this article as well, it is one that has drawn attention from many in human research due to the conclusions that parallel human research: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Redox_Potential.htmlI cannot answer for these results as per KH, as these do NOT match the results I had with my RO units over the years. In fact long before RO units came with TDS meters such as the TMC units now have, I used my KH and GH tests to determine if the RO unit/filter needed a change of cartridges and membranes. I would question the quality of the RO water you are using at this point. However, since I have not toured the country with RO units, it is not outside the realm of possibilities that you have some sot of water that is "kryptonyte" to RO filters/units Since many if not most North American Fish (not counting Central America) come from high alkaline and mineral waters, I would question the need for much if any RO or DI water use if any Carl
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Post by flickford on Jul 6, 2014 21:15:56 GMT -5
Oh boy just when I thought I was close to a resolution…
I'm not really chasing pH am I ? Starting off at 8.4 is very close to the extreme end of the pH range of the fish and definitely the plants I plan on getting, would it hurt to have a bit of a safety margin? I'd like to see if pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8.0 is possible without too much bother.
NO WONDER! I flipped the data - I meant to say: My initial API tests in 3:1 RO/tap determined that the dKH was 5º and the GH between 17.9 and 35.8 ppm, the pH was 8.4. My initial tests in 1:1 RO/tap have determined that the dKH was 10º and the GH between 35.8 - 53.7 ppm, the pH was 8.4. (In my first post on this thread I presented it right) This is what my pure tap water tests at with an API kit: dKH was between 23º - 24º and the GH perhaps as high as 71.6 ppm (kinda hopeful that), and the pH was 8.6 with a bullet - I have no way of knowing if it went any higher. Shouldn't I try to get the KH down a bit?
Well I wouldn't object to that conclusion either - now that you have the correct data from me about my water let me know what you think. In the meantime I will bring the tap water to the lab tomorrow to get it tested, and have the system guys come back and see what's up with the RO unit. Should I test my RO water with the API kit for GH and KH? I didn't try that yet to see if my filters are toast.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 0:24:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the info Devon, I used to have great water when I lived downstate and in NYC. NYC gets all the best water from upstate - we get local well water that can be hit or miss. So going with RO water and additives is brand new to me. My concern with Replenish is that Seachem insists in many forums that "Replenish will put back all the necessary minerals and will establish your GH. However, because you plan on having a planted tank we recommend Equilibrium to replace the GH. Equilibrium does not contain sodium or chloride which can be harmful to plants at elevated amounts." But I also see in many forums how difficult it is to dissolve Equilibrium, and I'd like to know more about experiences with Replenish in planted tanks. I will go with mineralized topsoil under the gravel. I'm really seeking a low-tech solution harkening back to my experiences long before dosing and CO2 injection, hyper filtration and massive water changes. I got phenomenal growth back then with "the balanced aquarium" method. Im not sure about the Equilibrium, but for the GH, this is where the Wonder Shell comes in... Now I need to read the rest of this thread, cause there is I lot after this comment I haven't read.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 0:41:00 GMT -5
I have a quick question about the use of RO water. There is a small "fish store" (actually it's a hobby supply/fish store), that just opened up near me. They are VERY small, and specialize in SW fish. They will sell RO water to me for $1/gallon. It's not something I can afford very often, but are there special occassions where I should consider using it? I would say it's something not worth it, unless you have some extreme water quality. It wont help in the way of CB and Aeromonas.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 0:46:18 GMT -5
Is this CO2 the same that the CO2 indicator measures, and what about Excel? I use 1 capful of Excel/day for my 55G, but my indicator is usually blue. tank with unstable KH (and for that reason, pH) Mine stays blue too I'm pretty sure it's because the amount of excel that I'm doing, it's being consumed by the plants just as fast as I'm putting it in. I'm thinking the indicator is more for CO2 injections. Unstable pH is not a good thing. Using buffers will help. Not sure what piece of driftwood you use, but Malaysian driftwood helps and the SeaChem buffers Flick and Carl are talking about would help.
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 1:02:56 GMT -5
Oh boy just when I thought I was close to a resolution… I'm not really chasing pH am I ? Starting off at 8.4 is very close to the extreme end of the pH range of the fish and definitely the plants I plan on getting, would it hurt to have a bit of a safety margin? I'd like to see if pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8.0 is possible without too much bother. NO WONDER! I flipped the data - I meant to say: My initial API tests in 3:1 RO/tap determined that the dKH was 5º and the GH between 17.9 and 35.8 ppm, the pH was 8.4. My initial tests in 1:1 RO/tap have determined that the dKH was 10º and the GH between 35.8 - 53.7 ppm, the pH was 8.4. (In my first post on this thread I presented it right) This is what my pure tap water tests at with an API kit: dKH was between 23º - 24º and the GH perhaps as high as 71.6 ppm (kinda hopeful that), and the pH was 8.6 with a bullet - I have no way of knowing if it went any higher. Shouldn't I try to get the KH down a bit?
Well I wouldn't object to that conclusion either - now that you have the correct data from me about my water let me know what you think.In the meantime I will bring the tap water to the lab tomorrow to get it tested, and have the system guys come back and see what's up with the RO unit. Should I test my RO water with the API kit for GH and KH? I didn't try that yet to see if my filters are toast. I think I followed this thread right and am thinking I agree with what Carl said. I might be completely off base here (it is kinda late), but I'm thinking you don't even need the RO water. You want the high KH to prevent pH swings. The higher GH with the tap water is good too, but could still use a Wonder Shell. Since the RO is not affecting the pH anyways, you would just use the buffers to bring the pH down to the desired 7.5-8. I thinking you are not as off as you think. Please Carl, correct me if I'm wrong.
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Post by flickford on Jul 7, 2014 8:16:53 GMT -5
That would be amazing! The KH would be at 410-430 ppm - that's not too high? Florida Flagfish (from Seriously Fish): Temperature: 18 – 30 °C, pH: 6.5 – 8.5, Hardness: 36 – 357 ppm, Mostly inhabits shallow, weedy freshwater habitats including backwaters, marshes, canals and ditches and has occasionally been recorded in lightly brackish water.
The Flagfish has the widest range of water parameters of the plants and fish I want to keep, so I'm thinking of edging the water parameters toward the middle a bit. But I don't know, That's why I came here!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Jul 7, 2014 8:48:40 GMT -5
That would be amazing! The KH would be at 410-430 ppm - that's not too high? Florida Flagfish (from Seriously Fish): Temperature: 18 – 30 °C, pH: 6.5 – 8.5, Hardness: 36 – 357 ppm, Mostly inhabits shallow, weedy freshwater habitats including backwaters, marshes, canals and ditches and has occasionally been recorded in lightly brackish water. The Flagfish has the widest range of water parameters of the plants and fish I want to keep, so I'm thinking of edging the water parameters toward the middle a bit. But I don't know, That's why I came here! When you put the KH in ppms, now I'm thinking you would need at least a 1:1 ratio. I have to say, I've never had to use RO before, so this question is stretching my thinking. I do think that KH is too high cause for the tank you are wanting to keep, you want something around 150 ppm. So, now I think you do need RO, with the use of Replenish and a Wonder Shell. This part of Carl's chemistry article talks about keeping an Amazon type tank and lowing KH with the use of RO water... Start at the first paragraph. americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html#amazonSee a learning opportunity for everyone. Carl may have more to say.
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