I need help with my Platy fin rot!

[katou7]

Hi

I have 2 platy in a cycled 10 gal tank. I have a bio filter and a sponge. The parameters are Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 Nitrates under 5 PH 7.8 Temp 80

I do a 20 % water change every Tuesday. However I went in vacation in Oct to visit my family for 4 weeks, and when I came back the nitrates where high (above 40 or more). My one platy developed some fin rot. After a while I got the parameters pretty much in control. And I used Paraguard 1st then fed her kanaplex. It didn't work. Last week a piece of her tail was gone. The picture is from a while ago.

I do not want to put all kind of stuff in the tank so I have some questions:

I was wondering if any of you have tried the recommended bath with Methylene blue/salt and kanaplex/Furan 2. If yes, did it help.

2. How long and how often did you do the treatment? Everyday or other day? Once a day? For how many days? I am confused as kanaplex is supposed to be dosed every other day for up to 3 doses and Furan2 is supposed to be dosed for 4 days in a row

3. Also if I do the bath for 1 gallon of tank water how do I measure the dosage for the kanaplex and Furan 2?

Thanks for any sugestions

[devonjohnsgard]

Mar 4, 2014 21:40:48 GMT -5 katou7 said:

Hi

I have 2 platy in a cycled 10 gal tank. I have a bio filter and a sponge. The parameters are Ammonia 0 Nitrites 0 Nitrates under 5 PH 7.8 Temp 80

I do a 20 % water change every Tuesday. However I went in vacation in Oct to visit my family for 4 weeks, and when I came back the nitrates where high (above 40 or more). My one platy developed some fin rot. After a while I got the parameters pretty much in control. And I used Paraguard 1st then fed her kanaplex. It didn't work. Last week a piece of her tail was gone. The picture is from a while ago.

I do not want to put all kind of stuff in the tank so I have some questions:

I was wondering if any of you have tried the recommended bath with Methylene blue/salt and kanaplex/Furan 2. If yes, did it help.

2. How long and how often did you do the treatment? Everyday or other day? Once a day? For how many days? I am confused as kanaplex is supposed to be dosed every other day for up to 3 doses and Furan2 is supposed to be dosed for 4 days in a row

3. Also if I do the bath for 1 gallon of tank water how do I measure the dosage for the kanaplex and Furan 2?

Thanks for any sugestions

View Attachment

Hi there,

Sounds like your tank is pretty dialed in besides the one mishap. I thought I would just include a couple articles to help you go about this treatment. Since you don't want to treat the display tank, a bath is the best bet.

Here are the resources.

Fin Rot
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2011/06/betta-fin-rot.html

The how to for baths and dips.
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html

Baths should be once to twice a day for about 10 days.

For treatment of Kanaplex and Furan, they come with a 5 gal dose scoop. You will need to just eye out 1/5 of the scoop and put it in the one gallon. This is the best we can do, but is not a huge deal. The medications have some room for play in their measurements. Just make sure to discard your water after each treatment.

Hope this helps. Both the articles go over much more than what I covered here. Make sure to keep your parameters in check, then start treatment. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Carl]

katou7;

Since you are adding these medications in a bath once or twice per day and then disposing of the water, it is OK to treat this often with Furan 2.

The reason Furan 2 is for once a day versus every other day as with Kanamycin is that this antibiotic breaks down rapidly, but again since bath water should not be used more than once, this is irrelevant

I would also suggest a KH and GH test, as well as the use of a Wonder Shell for mineral cations that are essential for the fish immune system

References:
Aquarium Chemistry:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html

Aquarium Chemistry Basicswww.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

Product Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html


BTW; I have used baths many times before in my professional aquarium maintenance company and it is often the only method I treated with and even when combined with in tank treatments too, the addition of a bath to the treatment regimen generally improved chances of success

Carl

[katou7]

Thank you both for answering so fast!

So from the reading it seems I have to double normal "in tank" recommended dose. So can I also calculate this way for baths?

Kanaplex: Normal Dose= 1 scoop for 5 gal
2 scoops for 5 gallons 
1 scoop for 2.5 gallons 
Half scoop for 1.25 gallon


Furan 2: the one I have comes in packets. Normal dose= 1 packet for 10 gal
1 packet for 5 gallons
Half packet for 2.5 gallons
1/4 packet for 1.25 gallon


Plus 1 tsp/gal salt and 1 tsp of Methylene blue per 5 gallons. There is 5ml in 1 tsp so I figure I use those 1ml syringe for 1 gallon.

I recently acquired a API GH & KH kit test and the numbers I got for GH was 6 drops (107.4) and 2 drops in KH (does it mean 35.8?). From the chart those number seem low for livebearers. Would the regular wonder shell help? Or what else?

Thanks again for the help!

[Carl]

Excellent calculations!!

The Wonder Shell would definitely help for the GH (as well as mineral Cations), but at best maintains KH, so it would not bring up the KH numbers

My suggestion for KH (Alkalinity) would be SeaChem Malawi Buffer

Product Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#malawi

Carl

[katou7]

Thank you!
Do you think if I adjust the water softness by doing what you said it will get rid of the fin rot.
Should I start by that and see. Maybe I won't have to do the baths.
Or do you think I should still go ahead with the baths and then adjust my water?

[Carl]

Mar 6, 2014 22:09:27 GMT -5 katou7 said:

Thank you!
Do you think if I adjust the water softness by doing what you said it will get rid of the fin rot.
Should I start by that and see. Maybe I won't have to do the baths.
Or do you think I should still go ahead with the baths and then adjust my water?

Adjusting water parameters often is what takes care of issues such as your Platy's fin rot, although once an infection is started, it still must be treated.
However, if anything, I would use only the bath and not treat the tank, thus not risking harming the bio environment

Regards;
Carl

[parker002]

This is only a suggestion but have you considered reducing the water changes, either in volume, frequency, or both?

It may contribute to a condition where you're constantly chasing water parameters and not allowing things to "normalize".

[devonjohnsgard]

Mar 7, 2014 14:05:29 GMT -5 parker002 said:

This is only a suggestion but have you considered reducing the water changes, either in volume, frequency, or both?

It may contribute to a condition where you're constantly chasing water parameters and not allowing things to "normalize".

Good point parker. I didn't catch that, but you want to try to expand the water changes to every 2-4 weeks. Sometime even 4-6 if your dialed in.
Great aquatic community around this forum!

[parker002]

Carl will be the first to tell you when I first started here I was messing with stuff WAY too much. I got to the point where I was ready to give up on fish keeping.

I've since learned to leave things alone and keep maintenance activities to the necessary minimums.

Not only am I happier but my fish and plants are healthier and happier than they've ever been.

[katou7]

It may be a good point!
The reason I change the water once a week is because I like to keep the nitrates under 10 since I though high nitrates can be the causes of fin rot and since she has fin rot now. And it is actually after having high nitrates after my trip that she got it.
Maybe I should try 10% every week or 20% every two weeks and see where the nitrates are.
How often do you guys change your tank's water?
I forgot to mention I have no plants...

[Carl]

Mar 7, 2014 19:31:54 GMT -5 katou7 said:

It may be a good point!
The reason I change the water once a week is because I like to keep the nitrates under 10 since I though high nitrates can be the causes of fin rot and since she has fin rot now. And it is actually after having high nitrates after my trip that she got it.

While I have never performed a controlled test to determine the exact "sweet spot" for nitrate levels in freshwater aquaria, what I have observed over the years is that any nitrate level under 20 ppm seems to help keep very healthy fish and even as high as 40 is not a major issue.

I should also note, that in the controlled tests I did perform, nitrates were most definitely monitored, but just not isolated. I can also state from these tests that while nitrates were never isolated since I never suspected this parameter to be an issue under 20, the tanks that wandered above 20 in nitrates at times never affected the results. Even the lessor known parameter of "mineral Cations" had a much more noteworthy affect on fish health

Maybe I should try 10% every week or 20% every two weeks and see where the nitrates are.
How often do you guys change your tank's water?
I forgot to mention I have no plants...

A couple of consideration, as Parker noted I prefer to "mess" with the tank as little as possible, so every other week would be my suggestion
As well if you feel this is not enough for nitrate control, you could also take out 25%.
Many of my healthiest tanks were only cleaned only every 4 weeks with a 25% or a bit more of a water change.

You can also maintain low nitrates with products such as SeaChem Matrix, or Purigen.

References:
For Aquarium Cleaning
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_cleaning.html

Aquarium Nitrate Control
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/07/aquarium-nitrates.html

Product Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html

Carl

[katou7]

Thanks Carl, I will try this schedule and the baths!
I was thinking about Purigen, but I am wondering if it'll starve the beneficial bacteria (especially with only 2 fishes). I don't seem to understand how it can take care of the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and doesn''t negatively affect those bacteria.

[Carl]

Mar 9, 2014 19:31:40 GMT -5 katou7 said:

Thanks Carl, I will try this schedule and the baths!
I was thinking about Purigen, but I am wondering if it'll starve the beneficial bacteria (especially with only 2 fishes). I don't seem to understand how it can take care of the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and doesn''t negatively affect those bacteria.

Your concern is partly correct as anytime you use another method to remove ammonia/nitrites, you will cut down on the number of nitrifying bacteria present in an aquarium
This goes for a planted freshwater aquarium where many plants such as Hornwort will directly remove ammonia from the water column.
Ditto for the use of a Marine Protein Skimmer in a saltwater aquarium; with this device you remove nitrogenous waste prior to going through the nitrogen cycle, thus requiring less nitrifying aerobic bacteria.

Purigen could be best described as a product that works like a Protein Skimmer for either fresh or saltwater.
While use of this product will likely reduce the need for nitrifying bacteria and thus numbers of these bacteria, when used correctly (not over used just as carbon is often over used), this would not cause an issue.
As the Purigen wears down, bacteria will multiply, when replaced, numbers of bacteria will likely go down to what is needed by the bio load of the aquarium just it would in a planted freshwater aquarium or a marine aquarium employing a Protein skimmer

Carl

[katou7]

Mar 10, 2014 9:30:19 GMT -5 Carl said:

Mar 9, 2014 19:31:40 GMT -5 katou7 said:

when used correctly (not over used just as carbon is often over used), this would not cause an issue.

What do you mean? I should not use it all the time?

I am trying to determine if it's worth it form me to go down that line. I like that it says it "controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds." But I am wondering if I use it all the time and one day decide to stop, would my tank go through a mini cycle again?

Is Purigen going to make the water cleaner (I don't mean water clarity but removal of harmful compounds) than me doing the water change? I don't mind using it especially if it'll helps or prevents fin rot issues. Another word is I don't know if I need it for my specific case.

I started one bath today, I will continue for 9 more days. Everything went fine.

Thank you so much for taking time to answer my questions, I really appreciate it!

[Carl]

What do you mean? I should not use it all the time?

I am trying to determine if it's worth it form me to go down that line. I like that it says it "controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds." But I am wondering if I use it all the time and one day decide to stop, would my tank go through a mini cycle again?

No.
By overuse I would mean more than is necessary to do the job, such 250 mL in a 20 gallon aquarium
Also as the product slowly wears down, the beneficial bacteria will increase. This is the amazing part of a healthy bio system I have observed over the years is that once you have an established bacterial colony going, spikes cause by over feeding, more fish added, or simply products such as Purigen wearing down will simply invite the bacteria to multiply quicker.
Resource:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#purigen

As an example, I did tests where I purposefully added a considerable amount of fish food dissolved in water into healthy, well established aquariums. While there was a small spike in ammonia (usually no more than 1 ppm), the aquarium recovered within a few days

Also reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html

Carl

[parker002]

I do 25% water changes every 4 weeks (sometimes 6 weeks on the 55G but it is heavily planted and has a large canister filter).

[katou7]

Mar 10, 2014 18:07:06 GMT -5 katou7 said:

Mar 10, 2014 9:30:19 GMT -5 Carl said:

Is Purigen going to make the water cleaner (I don't mean water clarity but removal of harmful compounds) than me doing the water change? I don't mind using it especially if it'll helps or prevents fin rot issues. Another word is I don't know if I need it for my specific case.

What do you think?

And if I decide to use it I should put 10 ml of Purigen for 10 gallons with "the bag" to avoid overuse.

[Carl]

Is Purigen going to make the water cleaner (I don't mean water clarity but removal of harmful compounds) than me doing the water change? I don't mind using it especially if it'll helps or prevents fin rot issues. Another word is I don't know if I need it for my specific case.

What do you think?

And if I decide to use it I should put 10 ml of Purigen for 10 gallons with "the bag" to avoid overuse.

I would start with making sure you have adequate KH & GH (more so mineral cations), this to me is the more likely issue, especially since Purigen can actually alter Redox even more (not that this makes Purigen a poor product, in fact it is one of the best for water polishing, but it does have some negative affects on Redox)

So I would start with buffers and Wonder Shells, then once this is addressed and water parameter could still use some improvement, use of the 10 mL Purigen in a bag would be a good idea.

Also consider Parkers points about water changes too


Carl

[katou7]

Alright sounds great!

I will finish the baths plus get the Wonder Shells and Seachem Malawi buffer. If I have questions with those 2 do I post it here or do I make a new thread?

Thanks everyone for helping and I will keep you guys posted down the road...

Spring is around the corner, enjoy!