Need help with 120 gallon set-up

[druboi]

I originally composed this as an email to AAP, but noted where they prefer you come here, rather than running your set-up questions that are not product specific through their email. Please excuse my phrasing, based on the fact that I simply am copying and pasting my would have been email, for help, from the knowledgeable folks here. Thank you in advance for your help.

Greetings,
I am currently planning a well stocked, 120 gallon (48"x24"x24"), moderately planted aquarium, to contain a mix of small-medium tetras and discus. After reading the wealth of information, presented on your site, I am hoping for further guidance, since it has been quite some time, since I have kept aquariums. Lighting, in particular has come a long way and while I found the information here useful I am still not clear I fully grasp what I need, for my aquarium. Additionally, we have a unique situation, with our water, because it is softened with Potassium, rather than the conventional Sodium. I know our choices of fish like a lower pH and soft water, but I also noted your cautions, against softened water. We also happen to grow several hundred, terrestrial plants and have had our water tested, and I will provide those results, below, so that you can make a recommendation.
My specific questions are:
For swords, saggitaria, vallesneria, dwarf hair grass, red lotus, and similar plants, am I looking at a 4 tube 54watt HO T5 unit or do I need 6 tubes? I am not planning on supplementing with CO2. Can you recommend a specific fixture, to fit my needs, of any type, looking at around a $250 budget? I considered 4 of the SHO bulbs, but do not want to deal 4 separate fixtures.
For filtration, I was inspired by your articles on fluidized bed filters and plan on employing a model 1000, powered by an internal powerhead, with sponge prefilter and a HOB sponge filter, rated for a 75-100 gallon tank, mostly for additional aeration and mechanical filtration. I plan on having around 90 fish, total, with most being small tetras, with the exception of the discus and a single, goldnugget pleco. I imagine the bioload would be well under 20lbs. Does this seem to be a reasonable approach or do have further recommendations?
Finally, below I will provide the results of the water test, I had done, and am hoping you can tell me, if I can provide an ideal environment with a mixture of the 2 water sources (softened and unsoftened) and maybe additional products, or if I am better off considering RO water. Thank you, in advance for your time. I am looking at starting this project, within the next month or two, having already reserved the tank and stand. Your advice will be instrumental, in its execution and I will be happy to purchase my equipment, here, since I am gaining so much,from the information here and hopefully, your further advice.
Sincerely,
Andrew Norris
Sample is: Water ~ Water Source: Well ~ Water Treatment

No Treatment ~ Concerns/Problems: No Concerns ~ compare and recommend





Test Result Test Result Test Result Test Result

ALK 172. B .000 Mo .075

SS .280 F Al .009

pH 7.59 S 3.17 NO3 1.56

Ca 14.7 Fe .109 NH4 .370

Mg 35.6 Mn .143 N 2.07

Na 3.39 Cu .000 P .117

Cl 5.57 Zn .000 K 8.24

 


Sample I.D. softened tap (Potass

Sample Date: 1/9/2014 ~ Sample is: Water ~ Water Source: other: softened w/KCl

Water Treatment ~
Test Result Test Result Test Result Test Result

ALK 121. B .000 Mo .063

SS .390 F Al .013

pH 7.73 S .231 NO3 1.51

Ca .000 Fe .005 NH4 .100

Mg .012 Mn .000 N 1.73

Na 3.14 Cu .000 P .075

Cl 40.7 Zn .000 K 151.

[Carl]

Welcome to Everything Aquatic Druboi

For economy and results, the SHO Lights are difficult to beat.With your tank dimensions, you could be by with just two well positioned 105 Watt SHO. Best results would include the use of a reflector, but placement inside a hood with Mylar or some other reflective material will still yield good results.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/PowerCompact.html

I know your budget is $250, but for long term results, two GroBeam 1500s will pay for themselves in both electricity used and long term costs since these are guaranteed for 5 years, while with T5, CFL, SHO, you need to replace the lamps at a 1/2 life of about 4000 hours
For Fluorescent lights, this generally means once per year for best results as ALL Fluorescent light spectrum degrades over time to a point in just a year if run at 12 hours per day that their PAR spectrum has degraded 50%
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/LEDLights.html
Further Reference:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html#lighttime

I have little to add as for your filtration, as it is an excellent plan IMO, including for redundancy.

My biggest concern is your water after treatment.
These numbers in particular:
K 151
Ca .000

While Potassium (K) is an essential element for bio processes, so is Ca (Calcium).
Without available Calcium ions (Cations), internal blood Redox can suffer, Calcium is also essential for muscle contraction & to transport ions across cell membranes

References:
*www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html
*www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

Carl

[druboi]

Thanks for your reply, Carl.
You must be referring to the softened water sample, as the unsoftened water has Ca. I am unsure if I can simply mix a portion of the unsoftened water, back into the softened water, to get the proper KH/GH, without the water being too hard, for the soft water fish. I admit, I simply don't digest all of the water chemistry information very well, since so many aspects influence other aspects of water chemistry and how it affects the plants and fish. I am looking for the lowest maintenance option, not necessarily the cheapest. I have had a terrible time with out water here and my show plants ( I grow African Violets and other gesneriads/begonias, for competitive exhibition ). I have been advised to avoid the softened water and switch fertilizer, for my terrestrial plants, and I am gathering it is because the softened water is so deficient in Ca. The untreated water is a 12 on the hardness scale, as measured for human drinking water, which is VERY hard. It also contains sulfur, which creates an odor. I am not sure if using untreated water is even an option, which is my main concern and reason for posting. We are the only ones, on the aquifer with any of these issues, which I am sure is because I grow plants and want to keep fish. The softened water has ruined my show plants and the unsoftened water leases stubborn mineral spots, on the leaves, requiring manual scrubbing of individual leaves, before show....I think motor oil would be easier to adapt, to my purposes, because its chemistry is less complex, to me...lol. I would be extremely grateful if you, at your leisure, could review the water samples again and make a recommendation as to how best to proceed, for my aquarium. I am going to look into the lighting you suggested. I like the sound of longer lasting bulbs and cost is negotiable, if the expenditure is warranted. Thank you, again, for your help.

[Carl]

The problem with even blending is the with the K softened water is that this will continue to drive out Ca ions, making the water not suitable for aquatic life.
What is noteworthy is too much emphasis is often placed on "soft water" fish when these fish can in fact adapt to reasonably hard water, and more importantly Rivers such as the Amazon which are very soft, are soft because of the abundance of tannins in the water, not necessarily the exception of Calcium (although calcium levels are certainly lower than many other water sources).

Both the articles I referenced explain this in more detail.

I would consider the use of RO water to blend with your well water, this is a much better way to "cut" the hardness to more acceptable levels.
A good RO unit will pay for itself over time.
Source:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ReverseOsmosisSystem.html

Carl

[druboi]

Thanks Carl! That is exactly what I was looking for! Would the Sulfur not be harmful? Would you still recommend the 25% R/O to 75% untreated well water?

[devonjohnsgard]

Jan 21, 2014 18:41:10 GMT -5 druboi said:

Thanks Carl! That is exactly what I was looking for! Would the Sulfur not be harmful? Would you still recommend the 25% R/O to 75% untreated well water?

I thought I would jump in with what I know. I know that Sulfar is only toxic at a high levels and this is a level that we typically don't see. So, there is really nothing to worry about.

Here is a little something from Carl's articles:
If you are not planning to add plants, I would be careful with the use of #00 or #1 sand (#1 sand is commonly used in mortar/masonry) as this can cause dangerous anaerobic Hydrogen Sulfide production in un-planted tanks when anaerobic de-nitrification goes from production of nitrogen to hydrogen sulfides due to sulfur reduction; please see this article for more on this subject:

www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/11/hydrogen-sulfides.html

As far as RO, rule of thumb is to start at 25%. You may have to adjust it a bit as things move forward and you're trying to dial in your numbers with not having to add to much in. Start at 25% and work up if needed.

[Carl]

As far as RO, rule of thumb is to start at 25%. You may have to adjust it a bit as things move forward and you're trying to dial in your numbers with not having to add to much in. Start at 25% and work up if needed.

This pretty much sums up where I would start.

If 25% does not quite deliver what you are looking for, then increase another 10% and so on.

Keep in mind that the more RO water you use, the more you may need to add supplements, including buffers and mineral replenishers such as SeaChem Replenish or Wonder Shells (although the Wonder Shells, at least in 1/4-1/2 does are recommended regardless if just to keep up with mineral Cations)

Generally I have found that 25% or a little more RO solves most issues with the least amount of "messing around" which was important to me over the years since most of my clients aquariums were only visited once per week or two, so water parameters that bounced within this time frame that required micro managing simply was not acceptable

Product Resources:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#replenish

Carl

[druboi]

I appreciate all of the help. I now have a good starting point. I think an RO unit is long overdo, anyway, for my terrestrial plant hobby, because of our abysmal well water.
My plans, so far, are to attempt the Diana Walstad method of establishing a planting bed, setting up the hardscape and plants, filtering through peat, and letting things stabilize. I still have not decided on the light fixture, but I am considering LED, Carl mentioned and 6 tube HO T5 fixture. I see the benefits of the LED, for sure, but I can get the HO T5 for less than $150. It is a joint project, so we will weigh our options. Once the water parameters are stable, I want to do some water changes, with the mix of RO water and tap and make sure I have an established routine, for keeping the parameters, where they need to be. Once that is done, I'll start adding the tetras, in groups of 10, watching the parameters, and continuing to stock, until finally adding the discus. The advice I got here and from Carl's many informative articles, have helped make several decisions and decide on a filtering method, that suits my needs, better than a canister filter, would have. While all this is months away, I am super excited to be venturing into fishkeeping, again.

[devonjohnsgard]

Jan 22, 2014 16:55:33 GMT -5 druboi said:

I appreciate all of the help. I now have a good starting point. I think an RO unit is long overdo, anyway, for my terrestrial plant hobby, because of our abysmal well water.
My plans, so far, are to attempt the Diana Walstad method of establishing a planting bed, setting up the hardscape and plants, filtering through peat, and letting things stabilize. I still have not decided on the light fixture, but I am considering LED, Carl mentioned and 6 tube HO T5 fixture. I see the benefits of the LED, for sure, but I can get the HO T5 for less than $150.

The Walstad method is great! Very nice, you'll have to share your project.

I would weigh the LED vs. T5 cost. There are LEDs now that give your prefect spectrum for plants and are affordable. Granted there might be a bit of a price difference up front, you can easily get your money back from power consumption. There are also a handful of other benefits by sending the little extra money that makes it 100% worth it, in my opinion. T5 are nice, but they lose there spectrum and have to be replaced for the life of the aquarium.

You might like this video. It makes my heart happy.

Have you ever seen plants peril before?

[babygeige]

I don't have any advice to add beyond what knowledgeable and Carl and Devon have shared, but I do hope you will keep us posted on the process of your setup! I love seeing people "works in progress."

[parker002]

Jan 24, 2014 13:11:10 GMT -5 devonjohnsgard said:

I would weigh the LED vs. T5 cost. There are LEDs now that give your prefect spectrum for plants and are affordable. Granted there might be a bit of a price difference up front, you can easily get your money back from power consumption. There are also a handful of other benefits by sending the little extra money that makes it 100% worth it, in my opinion. T5 are nice, but they lose there spectrum and have to be replaced for the life of the aquarium.

I can't reiterate this advice enough.

My GroBeams are EASILY the best investment I've made in aquarium plant keeping.