Help with white stuff on mouth of tetras

[elizabethfclark]

I am totally new to aquarium keeping, so any help would be appreciated!

I got five serpae tetras exactly three weeks ago (May 11) from Petco (I know, not a good choice but it was the only local option) and put them into a 10g planted tank that had been up and running for four days. They did fine for the first week (and the water parameters remained normal for a cycling tank) but eventually, I noticed that one of them had a very small amount of white stuff around its mouth. The next day, three of them had it. I gave them one dose of Pimafix, and, before going to bed, noticed that one particular fish had a lot more of this white stuff (just around its mouth, nowhere else) than the other four. The next morning, this fish was on the bottom of the tank, gasping for air. Around this time, the nitrites also spiked ridiculously high (>5.0 ppm). The fish seemed to rally after a water change but was dead by noon. It looked like part of its mouth was completely missing. I got it out probably ten minutes after it died, but the water parameters remained bad.

Thinking I was dealing with Columnaris or Saprolegnia, I began treating with Triple Sulfa. I gave them a full round of Triple Sulfa, and the symptoms disappeared. However, the water remained so bad that I decided to purchase a quarantine tank and move them. They are now in a 10g bare bottom tank with a sponge filter, along with two potted plants and a piece of bogwood. I added salt to the tank when I set it up and have continued to replace as needed for water changes. In the meantime, a small amount of white stuff returned on one of the fish and I decided to treat again with the Triple Sulfa. I had only given them one dose when someone suggested that it might be Velvet. I looked at the pictures on the AAP website and it looked EXACTLY the same. I ran Purigen overnight, then removed the Purigen, did a water change (using Prime and Stability), and gave them a half dose of Copper Safe. The next day, I did another small water change (20%) and added a medicated wonder shell. They are eating and swimming normally (as these four have been all along) and the white stuff on the one fish has neither decreased nor increased. None of the others have it. The water parameters in this tank have been OK in the week it has been up. Ammonia has remained <0.25 ppm, pH has been 7.4 consistently, GH and KH have both remained steady at 53.7 ppm, and Nitrite and Nitrate have both been at 0. SeaChem Ammonia Alert is registering at 0.05 ppm. Temperature is 78.

Am I doing the right thing so far as treatment goes? I have not seen any symptoms of any kind other than white stuff (a very small amount) on the mouth. I have Methylene Blue, Pimafix, API Fungus Cure (which I have not used yet), and Mardel QuickCure at home. I have access to most of the API medicines, as well as most varieties of the Maracyn medications (Maracyn I, Maracyn II, etc.) locally. I cannot get Kanamycin or Furan Two locally, but I can get to them if that seems necessary.

Quick breakdown: tank has been treated with Prime and Stability and contains salt, a Medicated Wonder Shell, and a half dose of Copper Safe. Fish seem completely OK other than a small amount of white stuff on the mouth of one fish.

Thank you in advance for helping!

[Carl]

Elizebeth, welcome to Everything Aquatic!


Sorry for the slow response, often many members are not on during the weekends


Water Parameters are essential to a cure, especially if it is Columnaris or Saprolegnia, although not quite as essential to Velvet

As per the article Aquarium Disease Prevention; I definitely would keep Furan 2 and Kanaplex on hand, as these are often too of the best gram negative treatments
Triple Sulfa is also an excellent one to have on hand and it appears to have helped your fish, which does leave me somewhat questioning Velvet.

At this point I would stay the coarse, but if symptoms do not improve in 3-5 days or get worse, I would start adding Triple Sulfa again, all the while meticulously monitoring water parameters.

You might also consider a Fish Bath and Swab if conditions do not improve

Speaking of Water Parameters, again as per Aquarium Disease Prevention; here is what iss recommended:
"
• PH; stability is what is most important, Note that ammonia is more toxic at a higher ph (at pH under 6.5, ammonia begins to convert to less toxic ammonium)!
• KH; 50 ppm or higher, depending on the fish kept, much higher in SW, etc. A stable KH maintains pH and an unstable KH is a predictor of an unstable aquarium bio load
• Ammonia; 0 ppm,
• Nitrites; 0 ppm,
• Nitrates; below 40-50 ppm for FW, below 15-20 ppm for SW and even less for Reef),
• Positive mineral ions. A GH of 100-500 ppm (depending on the fish kept) provides the BASE for needed calcium and other important mineral cations for proper osmotic processes and healing from infections and wounds (having a GH over 100 ppm does NOT guarantee positive mineral ions, aka electrolytes are available to fish).
• A Balanced Redox (a water chemistry parameter that more recent research is proving its importance in disease prevention!)
"

For your Tetras, the GH should be a minimum of 100 up to 300-400

This article might be helpful too:
www.fishbeginner.info/home/aquarium-gh-kh-ph-chemistry-what-to-know/

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Elizabethfclark, sorry to hear about the trouble you are having. I too had trouble when I first started keeping fish (that was 10 years ago, but know you are far from alone). It sounds like the fish are getting sick due to stress from being new and the poor water parameters. Stress can bring on opportunistic infections. I also agree that water parameters are playing a major part your difficulty with treatment.

Also, yoru KH and GH are a bit low. I wouldn't recommend chasing it around but keeping them both a bit higher for PH stability will definitely benefit your fish. As far as PH, don't chase it around much. Stability is much more important than the actual number as far as PH is concerned.

I hope that helps and good luck!

Renee

[elizabethfclark]

Thanks for the advice! It seems that the medicated wonder shell did the trick, as they are now apparently disease free, and the water conditions are improving rapidly.

The GH is definitely acceptable (thanks to Carl and the wonder shells!). The KH is still a little bit low, but I have SeaChem Alkaline Buffer and I'm slowly learning how to use it.

Unfortunately, we now have a slight bullying problem, but that's a different thread...

Thanks again for the advice! It is so stressful to be new to this and have them get sick right at the beginning.

[Carl]

Glad to read it helped!

Carl

[babygeige]

Welcome to the forum!
I'm glad your fish are recovered from their sickness. Hang in there, it seems like you're getting the hang of it! It takes patience, but the reward of watching your new friends thrive is well worth it!

[supramom2000]

Hi Carl,

You helped me several months back (for a long period of time!) with a battle of what we all think was Columnaris. After reading through this thread, I looked at the pictures of Velvet and wonder if that was what my fish had all along? That particular disease never came up in our thread, and I wondered if there was a reason you didn't think it was Velvet?

Part of the reason I ask is because a Rasbora in my other 10 gallon tank has a white spot on his mouth now. It looks like the beginnings of what my other tank had and matches the picture of Velvet exactly! No new fish have been added to that tank in months, and no deaths in months.

I had just done a water change yesterday. I checked the parameters today, and nitrates, nitrites and ammonia are 0. The alkalinity and hardness are still very high, as they were in my other tank - due to our extremely hard well water. I use Prime as my water conditioner.

After seeing the Rasbora's mouth, I immediately pulled my Purigen and my regular wonder shell and put in a medicated one. I did a 30 minute bath with MB, Kanaplex and salt and put him back in in a breeder net.

Do you think I need to do more to the tank? And is there a way to distinguish between Velvet and Columnaris?

Thank you so much!

[devonjohnsgard]

Morning Supramom2000,

Carl is out of town for a couple of weeks so I will try to help you would with your question. I also don't see Carl's suggestions about the Columnaris, I will still try.

Velvet is more of a itch and swelling of the fish where as Columnaris is known as the Cotton Mouth disease. White spots are more of a Columnaris issue. I will include a couple of articles that will help you determine which it is, but from the sounds of it, it's Columnaris like Carl suggested. They are provided treatment in the articles so it will help you know which direction to go.

www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/01/freshwater-velvet-piscinoodinium.html

Good luck.

[supramom2000]

Thanks for the reply! Carl's extensive help with me was in the Columnaris thread. And I definitely treated that tank for Columnaris. It is just that when I saw the title of this thread - white stuff on mouth - that is exactly what all the fish in my tank presented with. In looking at a picture of Velvet, that is exactly how my fish looked. None of the Columnaris pics showed mouths that looked like my fish. The pics all show saddleback things, and areas on their bodies. Mine only had it on their mouths. And their mouths pretty much disintegrated.

Anyway, this is a different tank and the Raspbora presented with a tiny white dot on his mouth. So I immediately started treatment with salt, Pimafix and a Medicated Wonder Shell. I do MB/salt baths (no dips) twice a day.

I just wanted to be sure I was treating correctly in case I had the wrong diagnosis.

EDIT: I went to the links you provided and the velvet article is why I am really thinking mine had velvet. The top 2 pics of the mouths disintegrating are exactly what mine looked like. The other link on Columnaris, I had read over and over again when I was dealing with this before. None of the pictures on that page looked like my fish. Those all show the white spots on the back, sides, etc. The only part that doesn't fit is the part about trying to scratch. But there was totally the rapid breathing mentioned, the hanging at the bottom, etc.

Regardless, for Velvet or Columnaris, it looks like the meds are the same?

[devonjohnsgard]

Hi again,

I'm glad the articles helped figure out what disease it is. The treatments are similar but not the same. You can use salt and Methylene Blue. In the Velvet article, the best form of treatment is Copper Sulfate. It is one of the more effective treatments. You can also take a look at the suggested treatments from Carl's articles. If you have something on hand that would work, you could give it a try otherwise, get the treatments Carl suggests. He even suggests a medicated wonder shell as a really good treatment.
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/MedicatedWonderShell.html
Good luck again!

[supramom2000]

I don't know if I know what the disease is. I just think the Velvet pictures look exactly like what my 20 gallon tank had last spring. This new problem is a white spot on the mouth (just like the thread title) and it looks a little cottony. As I mentioned earlier, I pulled the Purigen and put in more salt and a medicated Wonder Shell. Did 30 minute baths with MB, salt and epsoms. Today, when I came home from work, my raspbora was swimming upside down. I gave him another 20 minute bath with higher doses of the MB, salt and epsoms. I added Kanaplex and Furan 2 to the tank after I put him back in. He is swimming totally upside down. Now I'm really scared for him. He does not look swollen or anything.

[devonjohnsgard]

Morning. Sorry about the continuing issues.
I would suggest doing your baths twice a day for a bit. See if there is improvements. If not, I would suggest Copper Sulfate. If it is Velvet, this would be the cure. Also make sure to continue to use your wonder shells.

[supramom2000]

I have done the baths, and this morning, after the last bath - he died.

It looks like a neon tetra has the beginnings of a cottony mouth as well. I started the tank last night on Kanaplex and Furan 2. I left the medicated wonder shell in the tank. Do you think I should pull it while treating with the meds?

[devonjohnsgard]

I'm so sorry to hear your fish passed away. I bet it was the combination of disease and the stress of it all.

Yes, the wonder shell needs to be removed as these two meds cannot be mixed with others. You should be doing baths if just the wonder shell is not working.

From Carl's article on Columnaris and assuming you have done the basic treatments on the neon too:

With Methylene Blue or Potassium Permanganate I prepare a double strength bath and place the fish in this solution for 30 minutes).
I strongly recommend this bath as a FIRST course of action.
Furan Two and/or Kanamycin can be added to this 20-30 minute bath for more serious or stubborn cases, HOWEVER do not combine these medications or any others with Potassium Permanganate.

I would strongly make sure your parameters are in check too.

Hope this helps