coppersafe and Quick cure together?

[sunrunner66]

Hi, I've been battling ich for a couple months now. I have 2 BN plecos and 3 cories as well as a variety of plants. Ammonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-barely over 0, ph 7.5. when I first treated I used the heat, salt and half coppersafe dose which didn't work but killed a few plants. 2nd attempt was with Ich Attack and 86 degreees for 14+ days which also didn't work. this last attempt I used a full dose of coppersafe for 17 days with 86 degrees initially until my fish started to look stressed then lowered heat to 80. I figured the ich was gone so started to remove the coppersafe with a poly filter but noticed my cories with ich again (not QT the cories to begin with brought on this plague. I learned my lesson). now I have some quick cure that I want to try but haven't removed all the coppersafe yet. According to the API copper test I have apx 1 ppm still in the water but haven't done a WC yet. anyway, can I add the quick cure to the tank with that much coppersafe in it? According to Mardel all of their meds can be used together except Maricide.
Thanks.

[Carl]

Sorry for your problems with Ich

You should be safe in combing CopperSafe with Quick Cure, however it is always best to change out at least some water prior to adding a treatment, especially a new one
From How Aquarium Medications Work
"Changing water immediately prior to each treatment can improve effectiveness and lower the possible toxicity of treatment.
A 20% (or larger) can cut back on organics in the water column that can often absorb many medications (such as Malachite Green or many antibiotics), thus lowering effectiveness. As well some medications break down after 24-48 hours and can leave mildly to moderately toxic chemicals behind which a water change (or even running carbon in a filter for an hour or two) prior to the next treatment can help lower/remove."

Another problem I see with your treatment history is the combing of the heat method with chemical treatment methods, which should never be done in my experience.
From Aquarium Ich; Heat Treatment Method:
"Due to very low oxygen levels in higher temperature aquariums, one should NOT combine this method with ANY chemical treatments which will often further deplete oxygen!
Please note that dissolved oxygen greatly DECREASES at temperatures about 80 F (27 C), many fish are sensitive to this, especially fish from more salty or alkaline waters. You need to maintain a dissolved oxygen level between 5-7 ppm, under 3 ppm can be dangerous, especially with an ich infestation."

Quick Cure is probably the most effective treatment for Ich, however it is not my first choice since it can also be one of the most harsh.
SeaChem ParaGuard is a good balance of effectiveness, albeit not as strong as Quick Cure, along with a better margin of safety

With either treatment, these or any malachite green based treatment is rendered more safe and sometimes even more effective with a concurrent treatment of Triple Sulfa

Another point, since you have battled this for some time is water parameters.
I cannot tell you how many times I have gone out on service calls to new clients that have battled recurrent and/or stubborn Ich cases only to find poor water parameters.
Two of the most common (sadly often due to misinformation, as the client was only following this poor advice) is a low or unstable pH and low mineral ions (in GH)

I would also suggest a good (not a cheap model) and properly set up UV Sterilizer which can further aid in fish immune response, in part by improving Redox Balance.

A Wonder Shell can also aid in Redox and the Medicated Wonder Shell makes an excellent follow up to an Ich Treatment to prevent return

Please Read these articles:
*Aquarium Ich
*Aquarium Chemistry
*UV Sterilization; Facts & Information

Carl

[sunrunner66]

Cool. Thanks Carl. I did a big water change before each attempt at ridding ich but I've always had the heat up. I have increased aeration every time but it didn't seem to help after a week with the full dose of coppersafe so I'll keep the temp normal this time. I actually just bought one of your sunsun 9 watt uv kits and have had it running for a few days now as well as the shells for a few weeks. The only fish affected with ich have been the cories. The others have all been ok. Since I have tetras I was planning on half dosing the quick cure and running it for the 2 weeks as suggested on the bottle with WC after every 3rd dose. If it wasn't for this ich I'd have the tank right where I want it. Oh well. The battle continues. I also have one of the medicated shells for after this dose. Thanks for your help.

[Carl]

Good luck with your treatment!

Cory Cats along with Pictus Cats seem to be among the most difficult fish to cure of an Ich infestation.

In part is their extreme sensitivity to most otherwise effective treatments as well since these are primarily bottom fish, many Ich tomites are more common near the bottom. Where possible a bare bottom allows for easier treatment.

Also the use of Triple Sulfa can help with this sensitivity

Also please note that while the UV Sterilizer can be used with most chemical treatments such as Quick Cure & Medicated Wonder Shells, it may break down antibiotics such as Triple Sulfa.

Carl

[sunrunner66]

I'll go get the triple sulfa today and use both while keeping the uv off. Also one more question regarding the uv...does it break down the iron and other micro/macro nutrients in flourish liquid plant fert? I've read a few posts where the iron has been reduced to 0 shortly after dosing when a uv was running but maintained normal level when the uv was off.
Thanks for your advice and have a great holiday.

[Carl]

May 27, 2013 9:48:23 GMT -5 sunrunner66 said:

Also one more question regarding the uv...does it break down the iron and other micro/macro nutrients in flourish liquid plant fert? I've read a few posts where the iron has been reduced to 0 shortly after dosing when a uv was running but maintained normal level when the uv was off.

Here is a Quote from UV Sterilization; Effect on Minerals:
"Here is a list of PROVEN light sensitive chemicals: Bromine, Oleic Acid, Ethyl Ether, Potassium Ferricyanide, Ferric Ammonium Citrate, Silver salts, Hydrobromic Acid, Sodium Iodide, Mercuric Salts, Mercurous Nitrate."

Ferric Ammonium Citrate is used in these ferts which would explains problems with iron dosing.

My suggestion is to turn off the UV during dosing for 2 hours or use Root Tabs

Have a great holiday too

Carl

[sunrunner66]

Thanks.

[sunrunner66]

Ok. One more question while I'm half dosing quick cure because of tetras and triple sulfa. I'm putting in apx 30 drops QC into my 65g tank but it seems to disappear after a few hours. I'm using an Aquaclear 110 filter with only the sponge and bio ceramic in it and te sunsun hj952 which only has sponge filters so what could be causing the meds to disappear or is it just because of the lower dosage? I'm also still seeing a few small spots of ich after 2 doses. I'm putting the 3rd in today then a 25% WC tomorrow then going for another round starting Friday. That's the plan anyway.
Thanks again for your time Carl.

[Carl]

Sponges as well as silicone in an aquarium can absorb the Malachite Green that is part of the Quick Cure, but generally not in large amounts.
The ceramic bio rings can absorb a bit more, but again generally not large amounts.
However this is why bare tanks are often more effective for treatment, but obviously this is also not often practical, especially for Ich.

My suggestion is to bump up your dosing to 40 drops. Also if you have not purchased some Triple Sulfa, I would recommend this too along with the QC.

Finally, I suggest performing the water change as close as possible to the next dose, although with a enough time for any water conditioner such as Prime, Start Right, Amquel+, etc. to have dissipated prior to adding the Quick Cure as these conditioners can also remove Malachite Green.
Generally speaking the best window for the water change is no closer than 1/2 hour and not further (prior) than 12 hours from the treatment (dosing) time.

Carl

[sunrunner66]

I'll bump it up a bit since the tetras seem fine with the 30ish drops I've put in each time. After what you also mentioned about delaying the dose after the WC and conditioners I'm sure that's what happened to the first dose because I put it in right along with the new water so it was nullified. I have been using the triple sulfa as directed. Gotta love the rookie learning curve.

[sunrunner66]

Hey Carl,
So I've battled my ich with QC and triple sulfa and it seems to have gone away. I think I went thru a mini cycle since my ammonia was up just a bit but got that under control now my amm and nitrites are 0 and nitrate around 5-10. Good. I've done water changes and used bio chem zorb along with a pad of poly filter to clear the meds so decided after about 4 days I'd turn my UV back on. Woke up this morning to black/dark grey water. The fish seem fine so what could have happened? I've turned off the UV. .

[sunrunner66]

Btw, it happened last week when I turned the UV on for a couple hours after a water change then forgot to turn it off, in my haste to get out of town for the night on a company gig, after adding the QC and TS. Came back about 24 hours later and my water was black. Not the "black water" bio type black just black. A couple changes took care of it but this is the first time I've turned it on since.
Thanks again.

[Carl]

While I have not personally witnessed this, I have heard of this from a couple other persons

Since I have not re-created this problem, I will have to guess that there is some reaction with chemicals in the aquarium, although I have used every one of the chemicals you cited with UV Sterilization running.
So this may be something to do with the chemicals AND your particular water chemistry AND the UVC Sterilization

I would not be overly concerned, but I am curious as to what "mix" might be the issue
So determining all water parameters that you can measure (it may be one that cannot be measured), then adding each product separately on separate days with the UV on might help determine the cause

Carl

[sunrunner66]

I stumbled across one of the others that this happened to on the forum. Very curious. It seems like the UV toasted something that went thru it. The only other thing I put in there Sunday was tetra safe start to counter the higher ammonia so maybe that did it. Last time was what I mentioned earlier. When I got home I tested my water again and got .25 ammonia, 0 nitrites, around 5 nitrate and ph 7.4ish so the ammonia went up again after the toasting. Could the UV burn some of the nitrifying bacteria in the safe start? Each day I dose about half to 3/4 cap of API CO2 booster and every other day a cap of flourish comp but that's always in the morning and I didn't turn on the UV until that night. I did a 25% WC today and will repeat tomorrow then see how the ammonia is then let everything settle for a week and try the UV again. I'll keep you posted if you'd like.
Thanks.

[Carl]

Whether the use of the UV with the Safe Start caused the black water I cannot say. but maybe.

What I can say is not cycling aid should be used with a UV Sterilizer if only because the UV will destroy the bacteria and enzymes in the water column while being introduced.
You need to allow 24 hours after introduction
See: UV Sterilization; effect of UVC on Chemicals & More

The CO2 should not be a problem, but some of the chemicals in Flourish can be affected by UVC.

I would recommend noting anything you add WITH the UV running and if this cases any change to water color

Carl

[sunrunner66]

Well Carl here's an update for you. I finally got rid of the ich after the last time I posted but waited for a while and a few WC before turning on the UV again. In the mean time I went and bought a new M. Lace plant for the tank from the LFS I usually go to and 4 days later had ich again. CRAP! Then deduced that it came in on the plant and that I hadn't been battling an on going case of ich but a new case each time since every time I got it I had just bought a new plant from the same LFS. Needless to say I will not be returning there and will be QT everything that goes into my tank now. I know, should have done that before. I hit the tank with a quick blast of Para Guard and all is now good. Love that stuff. I've turned the UV on again, hesitantly, and have had no black water issues so I'm thinking that had something to do with the meds lingering in the tank. I an going to put the UV on a timer to turn it off in the morning for a few hours when I dose my ferts to avoid any interaction.
Thanks again for your help and all the great info on your site.

[parker002]

Give your plants a bleach bath (followed by a Prime bath) before putting them in your tank and you shouldn't have to worry about where you get them.

[sunrunner66]

Will do