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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 2, 2013 11:27:51 GMT -5
This is the best picture of what this disease does. I've dealt with it, and it is NOT columnaris, but it does present it's self as such:  This fish was Blue 24 hrs before this picture was taken. Less then 24 hours after this, he was dead. I had this happen to my fish and it might still be columnaris, but with Mycos as the main issue with the fish...that is what mine was. What do you guys think? This is not my fish, but of a facebook friend. Lori |
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Post by Carl on May 2, 2013 12:30:52 GMT -5
Lori, this well could be Mycobacterium Tuberculosis, however the progression of this disease at this rapid of a rate is not normal unless there is a an interrupted immune response by the fish (sometimes genetic). From what you have posted, there seems to be a problem with Mycobacterium in certain Betta circles, however my maintenance "people" have had few issues with this disease, even with Bettas. The exception seems to be with Crowntail Bettas, which also seem to have very poor immune response to Columnaris too. What is also interesting based on my experience is the Virility of these Mycobacterium incidences in Bettas. Normally Mycobacterium is VERY slow in progression and not normally all that contagious unless conditions are poor. I RARELY had this disease in healthy established aquariums and even then when I did, it was even more rare to spread under normal preventative measures. Why this is not the case with these certain cases of Mycobacterium, I have still not found a 100% explanation. However I do have some ideas, based on my own experience and feed back from my maintenance people. I feel the lack of proper UV Sterilization, incorrect mineralization, inbreeding (poor genetics), and poor treatment procedures when it occurs are part of the reason for these certain virulent outbreaks Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 2, 2013 16:49:13 GMT -5
This fish was a "rescue" from a pet store. If I remember the thread correctly, he was purchased 2 months prior. I wish I could get someone to do a culture on it to see exactly what it is. Sending them to a lab just costs too much and the lab tends not to want to do "hobbiest" fish  |
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Post by babygeige on May 2, 2013 18:17:45 GMT -5
Oh wow. That's so fast! Poor fishy.
I think I read a bit about Mycobacterium in TFh once. Sounds scary.
You'd think that a lab would do work for whomever is willing to pay.
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Post by Carl on May 2, 2013 18:40:49 GMT -5
This fish was a "rescue" from a pet store. If I remember the thread correctly, he was purchased 2 months prior. I wish I could get someone to do a culture on it to see exactly what it is. Sending them to a lab just costs too much and the lab tends not to want to do "hobbiest" fish This is the only sure way is lab culture, however another way that although is not as "sure" but still is quite effective is a culture where by antibiotics are tested in a Petri dish. Similar to this is to treat for a specific disease, then switch if no results are seen within 5-7 days, switch to an opposite treatment For example, Furan 2 & Kanaplex along with MB/Salt baths are typical and generally effective treatments for Columnaris (assuming correct water parameters) However, for Mycobacterium, while Kanaplex might be part of an effective treatment for Mycobacterium, it will not generally work for it without other meds such as Neomycin, Isoniazid, or even Usnea as part of the mix. Even then results are often very slow. Also lowering temperatures and increasing salt have been proven in University studies to also have a major effect on lowering Columnaris, but not so Mycobacterium What is often frustrating for me, especially since I now mostly operate via a computer screen rather than at a client's office or home is that persons will assume some disease and treat for it no matter what. I make this point here: Aquarium Medications 1; Change Medications when IneffectiveI also get frustrated wit all the misinformation as to how much certain water parameters & even diseases affect diseases such as Mycobacterium & Columnaris Hopefully my points make some sense ;D Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 3, 2013 10:08:21 GMT -5
There is a LOT of misinformation!!! The lab I used, the director just "googled" Fish TB, and she called me and told me she couldn't believe how much just totally WRONG information there was out there. Texas A&M used to have the best fish lab in the country (or so they bragged...lol), but funding quit coming in and the lab went out . THEY were willing to help me IF they still had the lab. |
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Post by Carl on May 3, 2013 14:05:09 GMT -5
Lori; What I have found interesting is how virulent Fish TB has become in certain cases (not all though). This is not at all what I have experienced in CONFIRMED cases in the past. From my experience the disease was rarely passed from fish to fish unless the fish were injured or weak. In the case of many of these Bettas, they are not even together, so the only means of spread is contaminated equipment, which again WAS rare in the past from my experience. This leads me to believe, that genetics and/or water parameters are playing a major role in these outbreaks While this is not generally a viable option for the individual Betta keeper, if I were a breeder keeping multiple Bettas, I would follow these points: *Since cross contamination is often impossible to totally rule out, I would place these fish in a system with a central filter that includes a GOOD UV Sterilizer set at a highest possible UVC dwell time. I would consider this MUST do if fish Mycobacterium problems are known to exist As well this central system would be much easier to change water without drastic swings in pH would can easily lower fish resistance. This system would also be easier to maintain the essential mineral ions I often have found to missing with many Betta keepers *I would also cull any and all fish that seem to be getting this disease rapidly. A good example is the fish you posted a picture of; any fish that is healthy one day and then dead 48 hours later likely has undesirable genetics that need to be weeded out. I would make the exception for fish that might contract the infection, but with proper treatment and care show positive results BTW, Thanks Lori for sharing this photo and getting this thread going  Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on May 5, 2013 14:22:01 GMT -5
Sorry to hear about your friend's fish. He (it looks like a male despite the short fins) was definitely in rough shape. When I kept and bred bettas, I never ran into anything that killed fish within 2 days though Columnaris and Saprolegnia were common. Renee |
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Post by Carl on May 5, 2013 16:40:25 GMT -5
I updated the "TB in Fish, Mycobacterium Tuberculosis" article at Aquarium Answers to include a picture of the cubical based centralized system I referred to earlier so as to be able to maintain a more stable environment and more easily utilize UV Sterilization for both disease control and better RedoxCarl |
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Post by Carl on May 6, 2013 18:20:23 GMT -5
This fish was a "rescue" from a pet store. If I remember the thread correctly, he was purchased 2 months prior. I wish I could get someone to do a culture on it to see exactly what it is. Sending them to a lab just costs too much and the lab tends not to want to do "hobbiest" fish Was your friend able to send this fish to a lab? Carl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on May 8, 2013 11:56:33 GMT -5
This fish was a "rescue" from a pet store. If I remember the thread correctly, he was purchased 2 months prior. I wish I could get someone to do a culture on it to see exactly what it is. Sending them to a lab just costs too much and the lab tends not to want to do "hobbiest" fish Was your friend able to send this fish to a lab? Carl No. I was able to use a lab because I was considered a commercial breeder because I was supplying my local pet shop with betta. |
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Post by Carl on May 8, 2013 12:38:59 GMT -5
Was your friend able to send this fish to a lab? Carl No. I was able to use a lab because I was considered a commercial breeder because I was supplying my local pet shop with betta. That is what I figured This is too bad, because knowing for sure, then knowing any treatment regimens whether successful or not helps us all learn. Also knowing a family tree and whether this genetic pool has had a high incidence is also a very helpful tool for making concrete scientific observations Carl |
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