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Post by devonjohnsgard on Aug 19, 2013 13:02:31 GMT -5
Renee,
Thanks for the update. We received your order of medications and wonder shells so it looks like you are on the right track. The wonder shells will help out I think. I think there is a lot of info on this treat about treatment. Just do what you can and good luck.
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 20, 2013 15:12:48 GMT -5
Thanks. I'm trying my best. I'll definietly add the wondershells when I get them. As for the meds, I may or may not use them now but they're good to have on hand.
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 6, 2013 0:03:33 GMT -5
Okay, so the fin rot came back. I have been doing water changes strictly once a week. I haven't been vaccuuming but that tank hasn't needed it although it looks like it will be due pretty soon. Wickren, whose anal fins was gone a little of the way before this case of fin rot struck from past cases of the disease has lost its anal fin almost completely now. Salyme's fins appear to be in poor shape ( white edges and bits of the edges about to fall off). The same goes for Wickren. However, Salyme looks a little pale and may be acting up a little due to the fin rot. Nemo also appears to have a mild case of fin the disease judging by the shedding it is having of its caudral fin.
However, what is strange is Hansel and Kona's fins seem intact. They were bought at the same store at the same time years ago .
I have been treating with Triple Sulfa for the past 4 days (barring one I missed). I am unsure if it has helped or not. I missed a day (yesterday which also required a water change) due to getting together with family for Jewish New year and running around to get college textbooks. I treated with The Triple Sulfa today however along with a water change. The fin rot is on the higher end of moderate, not mild at this point although I wonder why it took so long to affect the fish. :/ I am going to give the fish more than a total of 4 doses (according to the Triple Sulfa box) with water changes between doses to see if it will help. I tested the water during the water change. PH: about 7.5 KH: 120 about Nitrate: about 25 Nitrite: 0-0.5 roughly (possibly higher due to a fish dying, hard to tell from poor lighting) Hardness: forgot exact number but on the higher side which is normal for my tapwater and aquarium water Also, Aztec died. It was doing very well and the other fish were leaving it alone. Then I woke up in the morning to see it had a shredded tail fin and was very weak and at the bottom. I put a fake plant near the filter to block it off. Aztec died 2 days later showing mild dropsy symptoms near the end- my guess from its body shutting down and sitting at the bottom for 2 days. (I had planned to put the fish down to put it out of its misery when I came home the afternoon I found it dead. ) Nemo is slowly worsening shape and has definitely atrophied. I suspect it will die or have to be put down in the next few months. I pray that the Triple Sulfa works! I only have 5 fish total left at this point and am very concerned! Renee
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 6, 2013 10:46:38 GMT -5
I provided this before, but here some information on Fin Rot. Usually Fin Rot is a symptom of something else. I would take a look at the article and see if any of the descriptions fit what you are seeing with your fish. I'm thinking it will. Triple Sulfa is generally very effective for Fin Rot, but going to something a little stronger might be an idea. I would finish the treatment you have going now and see how they are doing. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2011/06/betta-fin-rot.html
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Post by Carl on Sept 6, 2013 11:49:01 GMT -5
Renee; Sorry the problems have continued In my experience this is not strange at all, especially considering the history of the fish and the likely reason that you are having recent difficulties and deaths. I strongly feel that that underlying cause is a combination of genetics and fish permanently weakened from poor water conditions prior to your rescuing them. NOT from your care, which has been generally excellent (which IMO is the only reason some of these fish have lasted as long as they have!!) Hansel & Kona likely have stronger genetics and not as much if any exposure to dangerous water parameters. These two fish also prove the point that you do not have a systemic disease outbreak. What you might consider though is to switch back to the stronger Kanaplex/Furan 2 combination in tank or at least in medicated fish baths. See: www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#furanwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#kanaplexCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 26, 2013 20:07:50 GMT -5
Thanks for the info everything! I am very sorry I took so long to reply! My car is going to go to a junkyard (broke now again) and I am taking 15 college credit hours this semester. I really appreciate the help and sorry about the huge delay in my response. I finished with the Triple Sulfa. I ended up giving 2-3 days between treatments instead of one due to extremely high stress with my school and car and little time. I waited a bit after I finished treatment and it appears to have been wildly ineffective. Wickren's anal fin is gone and I'd say both Wickren and Salyme have lost 33% of their finnage if not more at this point. Hansel and Kona still appear unaffected still and so did Nemo which I had to put down with clove oil after it laid on the bottom of the aquarium for 2 days. I realized it would have probably just keep suffering for there for another 2-3 days before it actually died if I hadn't ended its life as humanely as possible at that point. I admit I have not done a water change to remove the Triple Sulfa yet and just readded filter carbon (about 3 weeks since last water change). I am doing a 50% water change tomorrow to remove the Triple Sulfa and am doing baths, a Furan 2 /Kanaplex combo in the tank, or both. Both affected fish are very friendly and got nuts over food so hopefully I can lure them into a gallon plastic container with food for everyday baths instead of netting them every time. Netting the fish is emotionally scarring for me and loath doing it. I also added a large regular wondershell again since Salyme eyes look like they are sticking out more than they should (I had added a large regular wondershell a month ago that since totally dissolved). (Kona no longer has minor popeye after I increased the salt in the water for about a month which was about 3 months ago now). I suspect the fish are having trouble with osmoregulation and that poor redox and improper mineralization is the cause of many of these problems. As was mentioned in the Fin Rot article, I suspect something with the water may be an issue. I typically check the water when the fish are acting strange and if not then, seldom (about every 1-2 months). I have been using the same system for many years to keep the water quality good and typically automatically pretty much know the amount of buffers and other non-disease related medicines to keep the water good when I change out water. I am going to change this and go back to testing weekly or more often like I did in my early days with fishkeeping. I would like to also ask if that the water in the fish tank was averaging 77-78 F all the time for about 3 months this summer could have triggered the fin rot or contributed to so many deaths.Thanks again for the help everyone! I will keep you posted. I know they are fish, not cats or dogs, but please pray for my two fish with fin rot. I have lost 6 goldfish this year after over 7 years of no deaths and don't want any more to die or end up permanantly finless and handicapped from this! Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 26, 2013 20:19:40 GMT -5
Just tested the water and added a fresh filter carbon.
Nitrate: 10-15 Nitrite: 0 GH: Almost 300 (normal since we have high GH tapwater) Chlorine: 0 KH: about 150 PH: 7.6-7.8
The water looks very good to me. I remember testing the water previously and getting a nitrite reading that looked like it was above 0, like 0.25 or so. However, I vary what tests strips I use (whichever are cheapest) and am not totally sure the nitrite was slightly elevated because that may have been the lighting plus some test strips that take are more of a dullish white and not pure white out of the box.
Note: I know it is likely the fish are genetically weak and fairly old - Kona, Hansel, and Wickren I believe I got sometime in early 2008 and late 2007) but want to do everything I can for them within reason.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 27, 2013 9:08:24 GMT -5
Goldenpuon (Renee); First sorry about your car situation, this can be tough (as I have been there with cars that are seemingly never fixed no matter how many times you fix them). Unfortunately, I doubt that the Triple Sulfa had any effect on any pathogen attacking the fish, although there is a point where even an antibiotic that might work in a Petri Dish will not work inside the animal being treated. Causes can include weakened from previous causes or genetics as I noted earlier. As well, while I certainly understand the why of going 2-3 days between treatments, this can allow for any pathogen to further develop resistance. This said, in hind sight Triple Sulfa was probably not the best choice. Your water parameters look VERY good. As for temperatures, these are good too, although it is possible that with a genetically weak fish almost any minor stray from normal can be triggers. So it is possible that although your slightly elevated temperatures are really nothing under 95% of any other fish, these MAT have been a trigger or one of a few other very minor triggers when combined allowed these fish to get sick again. Look at it this way; My Great Grandfather was a doing quite well for a 92 year old many (this was many years ago now), however one day he took a very minor fall off a step stool. He had to be incapacitated for a short time from this minor fall, however because of his age, this minor incapacitation allowed for an opportunistic infection (pneumonia) to attack him (& sadly this is what in the end was his cause of death) I would suggest Fish Baths with the Furan 2/Kanamyin combinations in these too (including Methylene Blue and salt) Will Do! Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 27, 2013 22:03:51 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. I spent $3000 for the car and another $2,000 to fix rapidly newly appearing problems. A hosde broke off the assembly and is at the least $500 to fix. Furthermore, as a result of the hose breaking, antifreeze is leaking out in a puddle under my car as soon as I readd it. My dad checked out the car when I bought it and ignored many red flags and discoruaged me from asking questions. He wants me to fix it still. *eye roll* It's going to a junkyard- it literally spent half its time in a repair facility and only put under 2,000 miles on it- which is awful considering it is only 8 years old and had only 116,000 when I got it! Moving on... sorry about the rant... I would agree-that genetic and that not treating every day due to lack of time did not help. The temperatures are cooler now (my guess is around 72 in the tank. We have generally kept the house slightly cooler in previous years in summer, but I guess that could have been a minor contributer. During the water change, I noticed that the edge of Salyme's dorsel fin has some mild hemmoraging (veins on fin are red) and a tiny bit of white as if Saprolegnia or Columnaris is attacking the fish. It seems that a Kanaplex/Furan2 combo is still a smart choice in this case based on my reading. Is this correct?
I did the 50% water change today (they are getting worse fast) and am about to treat with Kanaplex/Furan 2. I was reading the Aquarium Medications for Furan 2 and Kanaplex and read under Furan 2 to treat for 10 days. How long would you recommend I treat? 10 days as it suggests? Also, I read that Kanaplex is more effectively at higher salt concentrations. Since the fish seem to be having some problems with fluid retention and to make teh Kanaplex work better, should I raise the salt level and by how much? I was thinking of having a total of about 2 or more tablespoons per 5 gallons for 10 days (or however long) I treat.
Also, (sorry for all the questions!), for the baths, would you recommend the Furan 2/Kanaplex combo in the bath even though I'm treating in-tank too? What would be best to use for baths if you feel I should still do these as well? I will definietly aim to do the baths every day if you feel they are a good idea to do in addition to the in-tank treatment. However, if due to my crazy school schedule, I sometimes end up doing the baths every 2 days, would that be okay?
NOTE: I wanted to start baths for the fish today but am kind of drowning in homework at the moment. :/ I also do NOT want to go overboard on medicating and water changes as I know that can be as bad as undertreating.Thanks so much for the help!
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Post by devonjohnsgard on Sept 28, 2013 11:51:24 GMT -5
I'm thinking the Kanaplex/Furan2 combo is a smart choice as well. Since you are not a 100% sure and there a couple of symptoms, I would go with this combo because it is best for more of a wide spread of treatment.
Carl may have a different answer, but yes treat for ten days. Of course, watch for improvements or getting worst. At the end of the ten days stop treatment. Around day three, look for signs of improvement, if so, keep treating. If you see them getting worse after a few days, you could consider a new treatment.
For salt, you're headed in the right direction, but there are a couple of clarifications. The Kanaplex is actually not more effective with salt. The medication article says:
"Kanamycin is very effective in high pH applications, especially Vibrio, making it useful for brackish and marine treatments. Kanamycin is easily absorbed skin absorbed , making it an excellent choice for systemic infections."
So, not really salt, but pH. I would still recommend using some salt for the fluid retention issues. I strongly suggest Epson Salt in a bath. This is the most effective.
Use the in tank treatment of the Furan 2 and Kanaplex. Then do baths with the same Furan 2 and Kanaplex at a higher concentration. In the baths include Methylene Blue (double strength) and higher levels of Epson Salt. A level the fish can stand for about 30 mins.
"2 teaspoons per gallon can be tolerated for up to 30 minutes (many fish can tolerate 4 teaspoons per gallon), although if unsure about your fish’ tolerance, gradually add the salt via a dissolved solution during the first half of the bath."
Do them once a day if you can. Don't beat yourself up if you miss one.
Hope this helps.
Devon
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 29, 2013 1:36:42 GMT -5
Thanks so much for the thorough answer Devon! Oops. I was in a hurry and must have misread that. Thanks for the clarification. I'll try to increase the KH and GH of my water- which of course raises the PH as well. Since a constant PH is so important (I don't want to stress the fish more) and my water is already good, it will be only a little bit. Could having the double dose Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the baths plus the epsom salt and Methyline Blue in the baths too be overkill or hurt the fish (aka overmedicating)? Do you have any tips of measuring out the Furan 2 and Kanaplex for the bath? I plan to do the baths in 1 gallon of water. Since a normal dose is already in the water for the medicines, to double the dose for the bath, for the Furan2 I will only be adding 1/10 of a packet (1 packet treats 10 gallons). The Kanaplex requires even less per 10 gallons and will be even harder to measure out. I was thinking of tiny measuring spoons but even those could be too big to measure right! lol If there isn't a way I can accurately measure the amount of medication, I'd rather be safe and not use a double dose in the bath than overdose and hurt the fish. I have epsom salt I can use in the bath and some Methyline Blue. Last, when reading the instructions for the Kanaplex, the container said to use 1-2 scoops measuring spoon it comes with per 10 gallons. I used roughly 1.5 scoops per 10 gallons. Because I am also treating the tank with Furan 2 now and going to be doing baths, should I use 1 scoop instead of 2 to be safe in case of overdose or is 2 scoops better given the severity of the fin rot? Thanks so much for the help! Sorry about all the questions. I want to get this right. P.S. I started using the DuckDuckGo search engine. I like it so far. Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 29, 2013 15:40:33 GMT -5
Could having the double dose Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the baths plus the epsom salt and Methyline Blue in the baths too be overkill or hurt the fish (aka overmedicating)? No, since this is only for 20-30 minutes and is a much better medication delivery method than in tank (although "in-tank" os also important for pathogens that might be in the water column) This is often the difficult part. Other than a very sensitive gram scale, you just have to try and get it as accurate as possible. Even if you were to accidentally triple dose, this would not be a problem for this short a duration I would use only one scoop, but these directions also show that there is a wide margin for safety in this product too. No problem, sorry I could not get around to answering yesterday; I have been working some VERY long hours in an attempt to rescue business sales which are down 50% from May (no thanks to Google, the Economy in generally, and Amazon) Thanks for also using DuckDuckGo and passing this on Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 29, 2013 21:35:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Carl. Since I don't own a gram scale, I think it might be too risky to measure both Kanaplex and Furan 2 for the bath. Because if I accidently overdose in the bath and lose track of time (which happens if I start doing something else while I wait for 20-30 minutes to pass), it could hurt the fish, I am going to try just Furan 2 or Kanaplex in the baths. Though it won't be quite as effective, I feel safer with this method plus measuring will take less time since I will have to measure out one medicine less. I will be using Methyline Blue in the baths- I used it a few times when I had bettas and they seemed less stressed after a bath in MB. I am also going to be using epsom salt in the baths, but at 1/2 the maximum amount since these fish could be sensitive and the swelling is minor and only in Salyme, not Wickren. The fish are on their 3rd treatment today. I am not sure if they are getting better yet or not. However, I have not had time to start baths as changing 25% of the water takes 45 minutes and did 5 hours of homework Saturday evening alone. I am planning to start on baths-or tomorrow if I can though I have 4 hours of class and plans after. :/ Thanks for letting me know. I will only use 1 scoop of Kanaplex for the in-tank treatment from now on then. I understand and really wish Google's algorithm didn't push back such accurate and essential sites like Everything-Aquatic and Aquarium Answers. I set DuckDuckGo as my home page when I start my browser. It loads faster than Google and am going to see about getting my mother to use it too. Also, sorry for not being on much lately (other than the past few days). I never stop going or get everything I want done these days with 15 credit hours and such. I would definitely be on a lot more if I time wasn't so scarce for me these days! lol Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 30, 2013 9:25:55 GMT -5
Since I don't own a gram scale, I think it might be too risky to measure both Kanaplex and Furan 2 for the bath. Because if I accidently overdose in the bath and lose track of time (which happens if I start doing something else while I wait for 20-30 minutes to pass), it could hurt the fish, I am going to try just Furan 2 or Kanaplex in the baths. Though it won't be quite as effective, I feel safer with this method plus measuring will take less time since I will have to measure out one medicine less. I will be using Methyline Blue in the baths- I used it a few times when I had bettas and they seemed less stressed after a bath in MB. I am also going to be using epsom salt in the baths, but at 1/2 the maximum amount since these fish could be sensitive and the swelling is minor and only in Salyme, not Wickren. Renee; I recommend using the combination of Furan 2 and Kanaplex. From the Columnaris Article: "Please note that the combination of BOTH Kanamycin AND Nitrofurazone MUST be used for effect against true flavobacterium columnare infections, otherwise the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC) values of these medications individually is too low."While I am not saying this is Columnaris, since this pathogen is commonly present in aquariums, even well maintained aquariums such as yours, it is simply good practice to treat "as though" this were a confirmed diagnosis www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.htmlCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 30, 2013 20:43:49 GMT -5
Thanks for letting me know. I hadn't known this. I use both in the bath in this case since using both Kanaplex and Furan 2 is quite essential in this case assuming mild Columnaris. I have some good and bad news. There are signs of new fin growth in both fish already. Part of the bad is that the fin isn't healthiest (the veins at the edge are a bit red) so hopefully that won't cause problems. Second, Salyme seems off balance when swimming and a bit weak (much worse IMO). This may be because 1/2 of one of its pectoral fins is missing but I am unsure. The fish is not skinny and has no curve in its spine. Thus, I am assuming the swimming at a slight angle to due to the fin. As for the weakness, the many water changes and medicating have probably played a part, but most is probably from illness. Wikcren on the other hand seems to be acting normal. Hansel and Kona still have zero signs of fin rot. My guess is that whatever is causing the fin rot is opportunistic and keep attacking Salyme and Wickren's fins because they were already damaged and the fins probably not as healthy from previous bouts from the fin rot over the past year. I will keep you posted! First baths planned for tomorrow since I finally have a day with a bit less going on. Renee
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Post by Carl on Oct 1, 2013 15:47:29 GMT -5
While there is no way to know for sure, I agree that the awkward swimming is due to missing fin
Good luck with your treatments
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 1, 2013 21:26:11 GMT -5
Thanks for the quick response Carl! I am glad it is likely jus the fin. t I did the first bath today and managed to catch both with food and tupaware. I got concerned because they were both breathing heavily in the bath and still breathing hard over than a 1/2 hour after they were back in the tank. I used my hands to catch them out of the bath (I have done this before with other goldfishwith no ill effects) and they panicked. I forgot where the epsom salt was and ended up finding it a few hours after the bath. But I did use both Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the bath plus a double or triple dose of Methyline Blue. They got a 20 minute bath this afternoon and tonight a 25% water change. I have now treated the fish four times over a 4 day period with the Furan 2 as per the instructions(from Sept 27-Sep 30th). That appears to be a full treatment period from reading the box. However, I am treating for 10 days. I did NOT give the fish any treatment with Furan 2 or Kanaplex this evening when I did the water change and have NOT a add a filter carbon to get rid of any. I did not treat with the water change I did because I am unsure if I should do a larger water change or wait to avoid overdose in case that is a possiblity. That said, can I go ahead and resume treatment with the Furan 2, or do I need to change out more of the water first beforehand or add a filter carbon to get rid of some of it first?
Also, I realize that I could have added the Kanaplex when I tonight safely when I did the water change but am going to hold off until tomorrow when I will likely hear back about the Furan 2 just to be safe. It's also more convenient and easier to keep track of the treatment when I treat with both at once. P.S. I managed to do a bath for both Salyme and Wickren- were struggling and splashing a lot- without a single MB stain! NOTE for own referenence: Last treated with Kanaplex day 3 of treatement aka Sept 29th around 9-10pm Sunday Renee
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2013 9:53:30 GMT -5
Since you have already been treating "in-tank" with only Furan 2, I thinking is to continue on with the bath only as long as you use both medications. Run carbon for now. A couple of thoughts: (1) One consideration for in tank treatment (again as long as the baths are continued) is to use a Melafix/Pimafix combination after running carbon for about 12-24 hours. (2) After 3 days off re-start in tank treatment with Furan 2, but include Kanaplex this time around www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#furanwww.americanaquariumproducts.com/Seachem.html#kanaplexCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Oct 2, 2013 13:43:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply! However, it looks like I may not have been clear in my last message about what medications I am using. To clarify, I have been treating with BOTH Kanaplex and Furan 2 for a total of 4 days. (From Sept 27-Sept 30th) These are the only medicines I have been using in-tank.
I have also been using BOTH Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the baths plus Methyline Blue and am going to use epsom salt as well in the baths. Is using Kanaplex and Furan 2 for baths okay even though I am treating in-tank with them as well? That is why I wondered if I should use both Furan 2 and Kanaplex in the bath since I am already treating with both in-tank and was unsure if it was necessary.
As per instructions on the Furan 2 box, I treated 4 days and did a 25% water change. Since you recommended treating for 10 days, I am wondering if I should wait, put in the carbon, and/or change out more of the water before continuing with the Furan 2 for the remaining 6 days. I am using caution because the box only mentions 4 days and do not want to accidently overdose if there should be a 1-2 day waiting period before I continue with the Furan 2. I am also using Kanaplex in combination with the Furan 2 as you suggested and have been doing that for the entire treatment period.
Thanks again for all your help and I hope what I am saying makes sense! If not, please let me know.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Oct 2, 2013 18:44:12 GMT -5
As I noted in our phone conversation (& to clarify); treating with the same medications both "in-tank" and in baths is not a problem as the fish is exposed either way, just in a more short term concentrated environment during the bath
Regards; Carl
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