Round 2 (this time with graphic pix)..

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

I'm not asking for advice, it seems that I wasn't over this crap yet. Also was given a link to a very aggressive disease that acts just like this one. Pix are for people to see what I am dealing with.

Carl, IF you can ID it from the photos, that is fine. I've printed off the postings from the last 2 threads and will put them in (for me) readable advice...to follow directions.

What was working was putting triple the recommended dose of Fungus Cure (walmart - netraflorizen?) and 1 tsp of salt per gallon. I reduced it to about 1/2 dose (1 tab in 5g), but did not add salt. In about 24 hours, Convention Girl looked like this:



Little Blue:
Started out with black rot edging (dead tissue). Noticed it September 15th at the show. Sunday he went into the tripled solution. In the 3rd pix, you can see the new growth. About 2 days ago his tail turned red, then with in hours gray. Once it turned gray, with in about 24 hrs it fell off:





DT Male - you can see the black edging on his fins:




Daddy - you can see were his dorsal is being eaten away:

[Carl]

Is the Fungus Cure is not working as before?

If I follow and understand the progression:
(1) You go to the show and the fish get sick
(2)The disease is not longer responding to medication.

Has the reddened areas expanded?

A few thoughts;

*I have to think you are dealing with some water issues AND/OR virulent disease exposure

*While this may be a virulent form of Columnaris, it may be a virus similar to "AngelFish Aids"

*Treatment suggestion, a “cocktail” of SeaChem ParaGuard, Nitrofurazone, and Kanamycin

*As strong a bath solution for 20-30 minutes as the fish will tolerate (Methylene Blue/Nitrofurazone or Potassium Permanganate along with salt)

*Make sure absolutely there is NO exposure to other fish water at home or show, no cross handling of fish at home or show with a goodhand washingg

*Make sure pH is very stable, change smaller amounts of water, more frequently if needed.

*Make sure to add positive mineral ions

*If at all possible, build a betta enclosure that has small individual containers inside a larger system that INCLUDES a UV Sterilizer (I know this has help some larger scale betta keepers)

*I am curious as to the link you have that might shed some light on this problem, but at this point I still believe is is either of the two problems I noted and combined with cross contamination along with possible water parameter changes or deficiencies

Carl

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

I had been using my hands and bleaching my hands between each fish...I gotta stop that now. Using a brine shrimp net now and bleaching it between. I don't know how to make a salt dip, and changing 15 fish, I don't have time to let the net set in a solution, so I think bleach will be my only choice.

Something that was suggested as far as stable water (by another breeder) is to use the water from the 75g. Planted tank with about 15 animals, and 100's of MTS, a very fertile mystery snail and an apple snail.

Another plan is to get a 32g trash can and cycle water in that. I'm making water about every 2 days and it is in individual jugs so there is no cycling. My friends that are culturing this use the trash can.

I'm also photo documenting progress with meds, I contacted A&M (they no longer have a fish lab). The 2 professors there have given me leads on fish labs .

Carl, I do think it is a very med resistant form of Colunmaris....I'm sending you a pm.

[Carl]

Just make sure to not make ANY changes more than .5 pH up or down between the water where the fish lives and bath or water change water.

As I noted in the PM, temperature IS a MAJOR stressor in Columnaris, so keeping temps under 75F will go a long way in affecting a cure.

Salt is also effective in treating Columnaris (assuming this is the problem), in fact a Univ. of Florida study was able to cure Columnaris in Catfish with just salt and temperature.

See:
Fish Baths for use of salt in baths

Also this article may help:
Use of Salt in Aquarium

Carl

[Suzie Q (Lori)]

I have the fish at about 85*, so I need to lower it to 75* Normally they are kept at "room temp" I don't have the exact temp, but the water is cool to the touch.

What I'm doing with Daddy and DT (the 2 that still have fins) is tap water, prime, and 1.5 tsp salt at 85*. The other to are in an experimental med solution. I don't want to say yet. Daddy and DT don't look to have the dead/black edging any longer. They have been in this since Wednesday with daily water changes. This came from the A&M catfish specialist He said that he was not a tropical fish expert, but as long as I kept an eye on them and they don't stress, that I could go to 2 tsp per gallon and leave them in that concentrate for 5-10 days. I'm sticking with the lesser of the 2.

IF I can cure/get rid of/never come back this, then it will be a major break through. A LOT of breeders/keepers of Betta have lost a lot of fish in the last yr to this.

I'm trying to do "less is more" with them. Too many disease become med resistant by over medicating.

[babygeige]

Oddly enough, I think I've been dealing with something very similar with the bettas I've moved from the 30 gallon tank. Reading Carl's article on Columnaris, I think that's what's going on here. I've been doing MB baths, but the temp might be too high in one of the tanks - 77F. I've already lost one of them, I've got 2 left I'm trying to save in QT tanks. I've also got 2 left in the 30 gallon, but they are doing fine. (*crosses fingers*)

[Carl]

Good luck to both of you in your treatment!

Lori, temperature IS a major issue in treatment and prevention of Columnaris, so definitely getting the water below 85F and permanently keeping it there is a must.
This said, while 75H or lower is best for treatment, it is not necessary (or practical). However I would not recommend above 80F ever considering the past problems with your Bettas .

A strong solution like you are trying is also a proven method for treating Columnaris (as I cite in the Columnaris article), but just be careful to monitor the fish very carefully as this cannot be used long term at high concentrations.


Carl

[goldenpuon]

I'm sorry to hear about your continued problems with this. 85 F is too high and if for longer than a short time, is contributing to the problem/poor disease resistence. I remember keeping the temps with my bettas in the past at around 75F and about 80F max when I had fry or put fish in a spawning tank. Some observations on the fish-the female at the top looks quite stressed due to her poor coloration and paleness. (The males also look a bit pale). It may be the angle at which you took the picture, but she looks like she has some a humped back/scoliosis. I would recommend trim off the edges of the infected fins, but whatever this is seems to spread so fast that fin trimming would be pointless. I wonder if this could be a virus of some kind of bacterial infection with high lethality/rapid progression. I have never seem a disease progress this fast and seem so resistent to treatment. Also, if you aren't already doing so, darken the bettas' tanks. I don't know how effective it will be in this case, but it cannot hurt and is great for destressing fish!

Also, with the bleach, be very careful when sterilizing things that the equipment you sterilize is 100% bleach free (thorough rinsing and perhaps soaking them in tap water with dechlorinator.) I know this is obvious thing to do, but a shot in the dark here- perhaps very minimal trace amounts of bleach is getting in the water and reducing the fishs' ressistence.

Last, are all of these bettas coming down with this or from a specific line of bettas? I wonder if inbreeding and/or heredity could be playing a part in this.

Many of these are just shots in the dark on things that may have not come to mind/been discussed. My prayers go out to those fish! I feel sorry for them- seeing what they look like in their current state.

Renee

[babygeige]

I lost both of mine on the same day. I was starting to think that they were getting better with the daily baths, but then they took a turn for the worse.

I've got 2 female bettas left in my 30 gallon tank. I'm keeping a very close eye to see if anything happens with them.

[Carl]

Nov 3, 2012 21:25:06 GMT -5 babygeige said:

I lost both of mine on the same day. I was starting to think that they were getting better with the daily baths, but then they took a turn for the worse.

I've got 2 female bettas left in my 30 gallon tank. I'm keeping a very close eye to see if anything happens with them.

Sorry to read this Stephanie

Assuming Columnaris, I have observed exactly this too, where by the fish gets better only to make a sudden turn for the worse.
Although I cannot say as a matter of fact, I suspect that the disease has gone systemic in the blood stream and while the fish looks better on the outside, the liver, kidneys are being poisoned and then shut down quickly.

Carl