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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Aug 21, 2012 9:14:34 GMT -5
I'm just gonna post here and not in the lounge too...
Update: Lost Monkey Face, Big Blue and Little Man to what ever this crap is that I have. I have a DT female that has it to, and as long as I PP her fins I can keep it at bay. When I quit, it starts eating them again. I have done everything I can think of....a friend has a lab that she is sending her sick fish to so she can figure out what issue she can't cure.
Off subject just a bit but it really has to do with this post...I did an interview for the local paper on the betta shows we are having around the area to try and promote the hobby...(this is where it comes back to the thread). I complained about the water quality and he told me that Midlothian is in the top 3 for cleanest water. The water was described as "being as close to distilled water you can get with out it being distilled"....what does this mean?!!! I don't understand "water"...my gH and kH have always been really high, but distilled water isn't supposed to have minerals and stuff in it. I buy distilled water because tap leaves deposits on my iron.
What do I need to do to get my water better. I am REALLY thinking about getting an RO/DI unit now!!!
With this crap that I have, I've gone to using Lysol and Bleach (not together...Lysol first, rinse, Bleach, rinse. That has kept this yuck from the other fish, but it is frustrating that my BEST fish have it and I can't breed them.
The fish are in individual containers (glass 32 oz mason jars), and I clean them every day, 2 days, but no more then 3 days in-between, so the only parameters I can give would be gH and kH (just got new kit so I haven't tested the water). pH is 7.4/High Range 7.2-7.8...so I'm guessing about 7.5??? LOL....I'm in the middle of the test kit. I am thinking about contacting the water company to get a mineral content, or where can I get MY tap water tested???
I'm at a loss as to what to do.
Lori
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Post by mistiking on Aug 21, 2012 14:09:17 GMT -5
Lori, Are you adding buffers and such to your water? If you have distilled water, or RO water, you have to add to it as it has nothing to help your fish, or even to let your fish live in it. Carl has an article on this as well. www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.htmlYou probably already know this information, I am just trying to help as best I can! Please let me know if this was any help to you! ~*Misti*~
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Aug 22, 2012 14:56:29 GMT -5
Thanks Misty...I just found out that my water is supposed to be that. I don't know for sure that it is though. The water does not taste like distilled or RO water....of course once it goes through all the pipes, I'm sure it picks crap up...lol. I would also think that the gH and kH would be like 0 if it WAS distilled...or am I wrong?
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Post by mistiking on Aug 24, 2012 13:20:38 GMT -5
Lori,
You are correct, there would be nothing as far as parameters. I would defenatley check your KH and GH as soon as possible, as well as nitrates, and nitrites. These can cause problems and death in fish... (My son almost lost his dwarf gourami recently due to the low KH and high nitrates in his tank)
Please let me know how this goes, I hate to see you lose some of your BEAUTIFUL fish!!
Misti
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Aug 27, 2012 12:17:57 GMT -5
I can test my tap/treated/aged water, but my betta are in individual containers with VERY frequent water changes. Not enough for ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates to really show up. They get 100% WC and like I said in the original post, they don't go more then 3 days with out a water change.
The DT girl went home with a friend that is a Chemistry teacher, and his wife is studying to be a nurse. She is going to culture her and another female that has a gray patch (no fin rot) around her head. These were the last 2 fish with issues, so hopefully I/we can figure out what it is and get rid of it.
I'll post as soon as I have news. I'll go ahead and test the water and post results. I haven't had time because we have a show coming up quick and been REALLY busy getting the final details pinned down.
Thanks Misti!
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Post by Carl on Aug 27, 2012 15:31:01 GMT -5
Lori; I have found (with small Betta Bowls) a moderately higher incidence of disease over the years when 100% water is changed. More importantly I am suspicious of the water chemistry, in particular essential positive mineral ions (see the article Misti provided). I would suggest testing all chemistry parameters from including KH, GH, nitrites, etc. Also I would suggest adding SeaChem Replenish to your new water assuming the water is as pure as stated. Fragments of Wonder Shells would also be helpful, especially if partial water changes are performed. Carl
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Post by babygeige on Sept 1, 2012 22:23:21 GMT -5
Wow, that sounds really frustrating! I hope you will be able to determine a cause and correct the problems!
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Sept 4, 2012 15:07:54 GMT -5
Swab on the DT/fin rot girl came back inconclusive, but she was treated with prazipro for parasites and is looking a lot better. My friend's wife said that it looked like her fins were burned which i'm sure they were with the PP, but I didn't know what else to do for her.
The other girl, came back neg for bacteria but the cells are growing outrageously...most likely cancer. (she died this morning).
I'll keep you posted on the DT girl's results.
Now I just have to find a place that carries Prazipro.
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Post by Carl on Sept 4, 2012 19:23:50 GMT -5
Lori, the active ingredient in PraziPro is praziquantel which is found in other equally good products in similar dilutions. Such as Tetra/Jungle Parasite Clear and API General CureNeither of these products should be difficult to locate. And in fact because of added the Metronidazole, I would recommend either of these products over PraziPro or you might consider a Medicated Wonder Shell as this is where this product often works quite well!I am curious as to how you may have contracted parasites, as a parasite will not simply materialize (as I am sure you know). So can you list your routine? As well, I am still not convinced that water parameters did NOT have something to do with this ongoing problem or maybe even a mix of causes. Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Sept 5, 2012 12:30:39 GMT -5
Sent 3 males to show (don't recall where...CA I think), MF didn't place so I kept him home from then on. I set him up with the DT girl. MF came down with it after I pulled him from his fry and I treated as regular fin rot. I think he was dead within a couple weeks. MF was diagnosed by my Chem friend as Columnaris (visual, not cultured). Treated but no luck. Even did PP dips (I'm pretty sure I killed MF with the PP, but his fins were NOT growing back when he died).
DT girl looked like she had it, so I treated her with a LIGHT PP dip and it looked like she was getting better so I didn't pay much attention to her. After the dip, she went into Meth Blue water.
Big Blue went into spawn tank with green female. I thought she tore one of his ventrals off, so I pulled him and started treatment to keep him from getting an infection (I honestly dont remember exactly which meds, but Meth Blue was one of them). He started rotting away, so he went into Meth Blue water and Kayamician? Fed medicated food (I'll have to look the meds up, another friend looked it up in her fish/med book...starts with an M and is a white powder like Kayamician). He didn't make it. Green female never actually came down with this, but one of her ventrals had the tip missing.
Little Man came home from Convention and was pretty frayed. HE went into a 2.5g with a medicated Wondershell, a drop or 2 extra of Meth Blue, Kayamician,....I also started salting my water again...looked for Furan-2 but no one had it....local said to switch to total RO water....erg...they said it was in the tap water. He died about a week or two after he came home from Florida.
DT girl: AS soon as I saw that her fins were rotting, she went into (CA breeder that lives here now suggested) Arciflavin? She was getting PP swabs. I started bleaching her container (all fish were going back into THEIR same containers....dump old water and fill with new) inbetween water changes....I'd put her into a new sterilized container, then go directly to the kitchen and lysol, wipe, rinse, bleach wipe, rinse with HOT water, air dry for about 5-10 minutes, then wipe dry with clean dish towel.
I have been using lysol and bleach now...had been using just HOT (almost scalding out of the tap!!!) to wash/rinse the containers. The only thing I can think of is that I bought some used beanies that had sat for a yr empty...I wiped them out, but didn't sterilize them.
As you know, I have this every once in a great while...that import came down with in back in '08? was the first, and I euthanized her because I couldn't get her fins to grow back, then I don't think I had it until that black shortfined male that was related to these guys....I got all the parents from CA, but different breeders. I cant say if they are truly related because I threw all the spawns in together because they were so few that lived. Monkey Face was marble colored like one male, while BB and LM had the butterfly pattern of another. The juvie belonged to the male that MF looked like (mother was from a different breeder).
ALSO...I didn't think about this UNTIL I lost the juvie....I dumped dirty water into a bucket...dumped that water down drain...rinsed with water to get poo out...filled up with water....didn't sterilize the buckets....I don't do that any more...buckets are used as dump water, and I do individual jugs of clean water. I don't use the same hoses to siphon as I do to fill. IF I use a bucket to fill, it gets sterilized before I put clean water into it (my little red 2g bucket). I never thought about spreading with the buckets!!! I'm sure this is how it spread, but I still don't know where it came from in the first place.
does any of this help?
Lesson to everyone....dirty stays dirty....clean stays clean...don't cross contaminate!!!!!!!!!!
Lori
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Post by Carl on Sept 5, 2012 15:05:45 GMT -5
Thanks for all the history Lori! I still have not been able to "connect all the dots" though For one, if PraziPro affected a cure, this could NOT be Columnaris. However as per your "Chem friend" this sure seemed to indicate Columnaris. This brings me back to water parameters and maybe contamination (possible from all the transport? I would find one way of providing clean water; whether RO or tap with necessary additives and stick with it. If you could provide all parameters of your tap water this might be very helpful (nitrates, KH, GH included). I will now attempt to address some of your points (where I feel I might be able to add any useful thoughts): Baths with MB, Kanaplex, and Furan 2 may have been helpful The addition of Furan 2 (Nitrofurazone) to the mix MAY have been helpful, however if the problem was parasitic with fin infection issues only a secondary infection, this too may not have helped (although Furan 2 does have some anti parasite properties). Acriflavin or copper may too have been helpful (both are in Medicated Wonder Shells, but low quantities). The use of API General Cure in future baths might be considered (@ double "in tank" dose) This is a tough one IMHO. This shows that the Medicated Wonder Shell may not have had enough medication for a serious/resistant infection or parasite problem with secondary infection. Also water may be the issue, however non-mineralized/buffered RO water would likely cause more issues. pH shock during travel and acclimation periods can also cause these types of problems, so preventing pH swings of more than .5 (1/2 of a point) is a MUST. Although often kept in soft water by many breeders, I have found and their (Betta) native habitat swings proves this; Bettas must be kept in water with a KH of at least 80 ppm to prevent these pH swings. Mineral ions are also essential. I have to question the Lysol use, as while I have not used this in aquariums, I believe that some to the ingredients can have residual affects, unlike bleach. Furan 2 is a good suggestion IMO. Finally, a few more thoughts:*Hereditary defects may also be playing a role in this, maybe due to inbreeding. I do know that CT Bettas seem to be quite predisposed to Columnaris infection. *Are any live worms fed where these Bettas are being moved to and from? If so this may be a point of transmission. *I cannot emphasize a consistent water chemistry that does not include over cleaning, but does include a stable pH, KH, and constant mineral cations. As well some type of filter media[/b], if only the idea of SeaChem Matrix in a Medicine bottle to maintain some water quality consistency between changes rather than the constant complete water changes that create waves of water quality. ~~~~~~~~~~~~ See Carl
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Post by mistiking on Sept 5, 2012 15:25:53 GMT -5
Lori,
I would suggest a tank of water, (or container of some sort) pre mixed to the proper chemistery for water changes. You would have consistency in your water at all times, thus eliminating this as a possible problem.
If you do this, which I think you should consider, be sure to filter it in some way so it doesn't get stagnant. (Carl uses a Hydro Sponge in his bucket)
I really feel this would help your fish as the water would always be consistent, and would cause less stress on your fish. This would also help your treatments.
Good Luck!
Misti
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Sept 27, 2012 14:18:11 GMT -5
DT female should be coming home at the end of October fully healed. She has been in Oklahoma with my nurse friend and her husband the chemistry teacher.
MY kids: My 1st place female came down with it a couple weeks ago or so. It was fast!!! One day a little black on the middle of her anal fin, with in 24 hours it had eaten up to her belly, with in that 48 hours, she had a HUGE hole in her side/belly...meat showing but not internal organs!!! Texas put on a show in Irving, Texas the weekend that she came down with it (Weekend of September 15th). I was at my wits end, so I took a tablet of Fungus cure and kitchen shears (heavy duty scissors) and cut a piece of the tablet off into her jar (32 oz of clean salted water) on Friday morning and left for the show (an hr away so I was not coming home all weekend). I fully expected her to be dead by the time I returned.
Sunday evening about 6 pm or so, we finally arrived home. I had 12 fish that had not eaten for about 5 days, so I got their jars ready and glanced at the girl...hmmm still alive...finished up with the 12 and fed everyone (the others had only been with out food since Friday morning).
Got my flashlight out and looked at the girl. Her belly looked a LOT better. Monday, the wound was smaller, today, the wound is all but gone and her anal fin is growing back.
Had Big Blue's son come down with it too on his tail. He lost the top and bottom of his tail but it is also growing back...who would have thought that Fungus Cure (carried by Walmart) at double dose would get rid of this stuff!!! I had been trying it, but at recommended dose and it wasn't working. EVERYONE is in the FC water right now, until I have no more come down with it. They are only getting water changes every 3 or 4 days...longer if I can...according to how much/often I feed. The more I feed, the more often I have to change the water.
Hope all my problems help someone in the future!!!
Lori
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Post by Carl on Sept 27, 2012 18:47:44 GMT -5
Glad to read you saved your fish with a simple product! All Fungus Cure is Neutroflavin (a form of acriflavin) and this is also one of the main ingredients in the Medicated Wonder Shell Fungus Cure also is available in liquid form (which is easier to measure for small tanks) You can also use this as a swab directly on the affected area which really intensifies the treatment. I note this in : Fish Baths; AlternativesFish Baths; SwabsCarl
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Post by parker002 on Sept 27, 2012 19:58:10 GMT -5
If it's the Walmart stock fungus cure, it's likely not API but re-branded Jungle. Which means it contains Nitrofurazone, Furazolidone, and Potassium Dichromate. So it's got broad anti-fungal and antibiotic properties. Also, the potassium dichromate is an oxidizer like PP, is it not?
I've had really good luck with Jungle meds myself.
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Post by Carl on Sept 28, 2012 12:33:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the correction! Yes Also, the potassium dichromate is an oxidizer like Potassium Permanganate Yes, Jungle makes some excellent products, although they have been bought out by Tetra who discontinued a few of there good products. This makes the point for a PP swab followed by Nitrofurazone in the tank in any form, whether by Jungle, API, or any other brand. This also makes the case not so much for fungus (as Nirofurazone is rarely effective for true fungus/saprolegnia), but for Aeromonas being the likely infection . Jungle is essentially using a shot gun approach with this medication knowing that Fungus is often mis-identified by aquarists Honestly this is kind of frustrating for me too as following the steps of addressing water quality, then baths, then use of Nitrofurazone I think we could have solved this much sooner. I know this from may years of experiments, included Bettas & goldfish in particular This is outlined in part in these articles: Aquarium Medications; How to UseAquarium Disease PreventionI personally feel I have screaming this in the dark; sorry to vent here Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Oct 1, 2012 12:35:27 GMT -5
IF you saw my most recent post, I erased it because everything I wrote HAS BEEN covered. I am going back and re reading the posts.
All I can say is "Carl, I am soooooo sorry I wasn't listening to you"!!! I'm sooooo sorry I had you and Misti (I'm sure) beating your heads against the wall.
What finally worked is what you guys seem to have been telling me all along. I was so "muddle minded" from being so stressed out, I wasn't seeing it.
Again, I am so sorry!!!
Lori
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Post by Carl on Oct 1, 2012 15:05:19 GMT -5
Thanks for understanding Lori, as we really were trying to help.
I do also understand how it is to get so many persons telling you different ideas that often contradict or simply are different ways of saying the same thing.
Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Oct 1, 2012 17:29:08 GMT -5
**Like**
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Post by mistiking on Oct 2, 2012 14:47:20 GMT -5
Lori,
I am so glad you figured out what was going on and were able to help your fish. We really were just trying to help, and I also know how frusterating it can be, hearing contradictory information. Just know, Carl and I will never steer you wrong!
Hope your fish continue to get better!
Misti
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