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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 30, 2012 20:30:56 GMT -5
I am extremely relieved that the black on the fins could POSSIBLY be healing. In the past, I have typically seen new fin growth start out as a very light orange or in dark finned fish, lighter than the usual fin color. Hopefully it is regrowth. Wickren and Saylme are both completely gold in coloration. Thanks. I will. The fish still have a lot of fin left, so unless the the disease "jumps" to the body in some way, or whitish growths appear on the fish's bodies, they should be OK. Thanks again for all the help you have given me on this! Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 1, 2012 19:53:07 GMT -5
Very good news. I looked at Salyme's fins and could not find the small hole in its pelvic(?) pectoral(?) fin (I forgot which fin is which lol). As well, I saw whitish smooth edges on Wickren's tail fin(from what I could it was smooth and not ragged, but the fish wouldn't let me get very closer). Its tail was slightly ragged before, so this is a sign the fish is healing! The dorsel fin still has some black edges and is a ragged still. The fish are done with their Triple Sulfa treatment as of today. I changed out 25% of the water and added a fresh carbon to the filter (as per the Triple Sulfa box's instructions). I left the medicated wonder shell in there. I am not sure if I should just let it dissolve or take it out. If there is any medication left in it, it will just be absorbed by the carbon.. kind of defeating the purpose of it being in there aside from providing calcium, minerals, etc. like a non-medicated wonder shell does. I'll keep you posted.! Renee
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Post by Carl on Jul 2, 2012 12:55:36 GMT -5
Good News! I would leave the Medicated Wonder Shell in there without carbon for another 5+ days. You can add back carbon for a couple hours along with a water change to clear medications. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 2, 2012 21:27:02 GMT -5
Definitely! I will the medicated wonder shell in for another 5-7 days then. I already did a 25% water change so that should be enough. Plus (the bad news), I left the new carbon in for about 24 hours before removing it (between taking it out yesterday and seeing your message). I hope the medicated wonder shell will be able to do its job still after so much the carbon got most of the medication out of the water. :/ (The water still looks slightly green from the medicated wonder shell, but definitely not as green as before.) I see no new damage on the fish that had fin rot and some whitish light-orange new growth on Saylme's fins. Aztec (who tears its fins very often it seems) is showing new growth too. I'm not sure how much of its fin damage was from tearing its fins and the fin rot though. Its fins looked torn (the usual for this poor fish) and never looked ragged except in one very small area. Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 11, 2012 17:59:41 GMT -5
Good news. The fish are continuing to do well. Wickren's fins look like they are not far from being fully healed. It turns out the black on the edges of the fins IS regrowth. Salyme has a longer way to go as far as its fins. Its was the first fish to get the fin rot and got some significant tears before I started treatment. However, its fins are healing well too. Every time I go to the tank, the fish have a panic attacks over food whether I go to the tank to feed them or not. lol Renee
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Post by Carl on Jul 11, 2012 18:07:45 GMT -5
All I can say is you are a really great fish keeper and your fish definitely have 9 lives!!!
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 17, 2012 11:52:52 GMT -5
Make that 8 lives Carl. lol The Fin rot appears to be back. The fins are torn mildly and all the fish appear to have healed fully except Salyme who had the worst damage. The redish dot is still on Salyme's head, but it is totally unchanged from when I first noticed it. I think it is either something superficial or maybe some strange very bright orange coloration. The fin rot showed up again 2 days ago. It was around the day or day after my hand brushed against Saylme's tail fin while I was feeding my fish and somehow (normally the fins are not this fragile), tore a bit of it. The goldfish are acting like they did last time-no signs of illness other than fins getting eaten away- very hungry and active. I have decided not to treat for now and observe. Overmedication can lead to a weakened immune system and MORE disease. I would like to point out it has been 80 degrees in their tank lately between my family trying to save money on the A/C bill and the heat wave that even our new air conditioner can't fully keep up with when it hits 97+ F outside. I do not think this is the cause of their deteriorating fins, but I know it could make them more likely to get Colunmaris as a secondary infection because it likes higher temperatures. I have ruled out ammonia poisoning as well. I bought a SeaChem ammonia alert which turns from yellow to a light green at ammonia levels as low as .05ppm if I am correct. The tank reading is at a constant 0 or at most, .005- .01ppm if I go judge by the detector reading a couple shades of yellow darker than absolutely NO ammonia like in an empty tank. Though the tank appears very clean, the fish's last water change (in which I did 3 in a week) was around June 30th, so they are a week overdo. The filter (which I clean every month is 2 weeks overdo to be cleaned). I very thoroughly clean my tanks and scrub everything every time I clean them so even when I am late cleaning the tank by a week (which I seem to be doing too much of lately ), it is very hard to tell. I am hoping cleaning the filter and doing a water change in the next few days will help with their fins somehow. Renee
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Post by Carl on Jul 17, 2012 12:30:24 GMT -5
Good luck with this latest round of fin rot I would suggest to do all you can to keep temperatures down and constant (wet towels, frozen water bottles, etc) as this can be a cause. Also as you noted about touching the fish; keep handling and even water changes to a minimum (remember the section in Aquarium Disease Prevention about too much care) Finally, their age is probably the biggest contributor to this problem, so unless you have a time machine, there is nothing you can do for this. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 17, 2012 16:24:18 GMT -5
Thanks for the prompt reply Carl. I kind of hope the temperature is the cause. However, keeping the temperature down is going to be difficult. It is 81 F in the house and 100 F outside (Why my mom decided to turn on the oven to cook dinner has me clueless. lol). Would letting a semi-wet towel hang over the side of the tank and form condensation on the glass of the aquarium help in addition to the wet towel on top of the tank and the fan? I was thinking cooling the glass outside of the tank as well might help too. I will be careful about giving too much care. However, they are in due for a water change and filter cleaning at the moment. (i will be doing those on different days of course). I agree about age. I wonder what got into Salyme? It has always been (and continues to act like) one of my healthiest fish. It also grows the fastest of any fish in the 40 gallon. Salyme is the fish the fin rot started with. I got Salyme in July or August of 2007. I guess I need a time machine now. lol I hope they pull through this alright. They have never failed to surprise me in the past. Renee
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Post by Carl on Jul 17, 2012 18:49:53 GMT -5
Yes, the more wet towels and fans aimed at the towels the better (or at least until your temperature is at its desired point)
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 20, 2012 18:17:35 GMT -5
It is cooler outside now and the temperature in the tank has gone down a bit- now 78 or so- which is better than it was although not perfect.
As for bad news, I noticed the goldfish putting their dorsel fins down a bit and Salyme is not acting outgoing/desperately hungry like it should. It is staying on the opposite side of the tank as the one I feed it at and hesitantly comes over for food. I have never ever seen Saylme be shy like this since the first few months I had it 5 years ago. Salyme seems to be trying to hide out a bit which concerns me. Aztec also does this, but Aztec has been going this for 6 years now and is very common for Aztec to be cautious and anti-social.
I made the tank dark with one grey blanket to make the tank dim and not increase the temperature in the tank.I am not medicating the fish for now. The fin rot case seems mild like before. I am hoping the fish will come around.
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 31, 2012 16:50:31 GMT -5
After a week+ of partially covering the tank with a blanket, the fish's fins seemed a LOT worse and the fin rot had come back full-force. I did a 30% water change yesterday and added Paraguard and Triple Sulfa as per Carl's advice. Some of the fish have red on their fins- primarily Aztec and Salyme who have the worst case of the disease. Both of their fins are tattered and torn. The edges of their fins are white as if that part of the fin has died.
I came home from class today so see 2 fish on the bottom: Aztec, Puon (who is also clamping its fins), and Alden (who was half-resting/half-swimming). When I approached the tank, the fish unclamped their fins and begged for food. That is a good sign, but they definitely are not looking good.
Any thoughts/suggestions? Thanks. I am ordering more Paraguard and Triple Sulfa from Carl. I'm almost out.
Renee
EDIT: The red is around the edge of the fish's fins where the fin rot is attacking. It is more than just a red spot or two-it looks fairly bad on the two fish that have it-Aztec and Salyme. Fish that previously hadn't shown any signs of fin rot before are now showed mildly torn and damaged fins. These include Nemo, Kona, and Hansel.
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Post by Carl on Jul 31, 2012 18:45:40 GMT -5
Sorry to read this Renee; As I noted in my PM, a Methylene Blue might be helpful at this point too including a direct swab of MB. A swab of Hydrogen Peroxide might also be helpful (one or the other though) Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jul 31, 2012 22:01:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Carl. I have an untouched bottle of MB on hand as well as a bottle of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide from the pharmacy and something called "Pond Permoyxn" made by Kordon which contains Potassium Permanganate.ALL of the goldfish have fin damage at this point. Salyme and Wickren have every single one of their fins eaten away a little. Wickren does not have red wounds on its fins like Aztec and Salyme. However, Aztec and Salyme only have wounds on their tails for the most part, not their other fins. Which is more effective for the fish-the MB or Hydrogen Peroxide? Also, should I swab the wounded areas on Aztec and Salyme or anywhere there is fin damage? If I swab anywhere the fins are ragged on the fish... well... I'll be catching and swabbing all 8 goldfish in the tank. O.O Also, would a MB bath be more useful than swabbing? I am in luck because it is summer. Meaning I can do the baths outside at night (so the fish don't heat up too much) and I *may* be able to do so without spills indoors. I am assuming that I should continue the in-tank treatment with the Triple Sulfa and Paraguard during the time I do the swabbing? As per an update on the fish, all of them seem to be eating and are begging for food. However, last time I checked under an hour ago, Puon was clamping its fins and head-standing. Aztec was also not doing well: swimming near the bottom and resting its long tail fins there. (These two are the oldest fish in the tank, though fin-wise, not behavior-wise, Salyme is faring worse.) As per when the strange bottom-dwelling behavior started, I noticed it probably started in the last 24 hours. I am not sure if this could have caused it, but I put an old, somewhat rusty mesh top on the tank yesterday with a very wet towel to cool off the tank. Both fans I used started smelling like the motor was burning in them after I used them for a few hours straight. (Though one of the fans was old and in bad shape, I have no idea why that happened to the other). Could something from the fans or the metal mesh top be causing this? (Also, after the second fan showed signs of going bad on me, I stopped with cooling the tank via the fans.) Thanks for the help and sorry for so many questions. These fish are like family to me. Renee
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Post by parker002 on Aug 1, 2012 8:06:43 GMT -5
Carl will have to confirm this but I think that Potassium Permanganate would be the strongest, followed by MB. 3% peroxide would be the weakest.
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Post by Carl on Aug 1, 2012 9:33:07 GMT -5
Carl will have to confirm this but I think that Potassium Permanganate would be the strongest, followed by MB. 3% peroxide would be the weakest. I agree I would add that sometimes (as with in human treatments), one treatment regimen will work when another does not regardless of "strength" I would perform the swab and dip in the same procedure and continue "in tank" treatment during this time PS, thanks Parker for jumping in and answering this quickly for Renee!Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 1, 2012 11:36:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the response guys. I read in Fish Baths, Dips, Swabs that Potassium Permanganate that it should not be put in wounds. Due to the wounds on Salyme and Aztec's tails, MB or Hydrogen Peroxide may be better. I am thinking of using MB swab and bath combo due to its effectiveness and safety for the fish. I woke up lin the late morning and found Puon and Aztec FULLY resting on the bottom. It was hard to tell, but it looks like Salyme was swimming with its head tilted slightly down and tail up (not head standing since the fish was in the mid-level of the tank and it was very mild), but more like a sign of distress. Aztec got up from the bottom of the tank when it saw me, but Puon had a harder time and stayed. It seems like all the fish are slowly shutting down. Puon is begging, but going up for air and having difficulty eating- it keeps losing and regaining focus on the food aka getting distracted swimming and heading to the top and resuming its food search. I have not seen other fish go to the top for air as if poisoned. Puon is well-known to go to the top for air whenever it is having issues staying off the bottom or is weak like in this case. Whatever is going on is NOT just fin rot. Apologies for deviating from what was suggested for treatment. However, after seeing the fishs' conditions, a bit of a rash decision, I re-added the filter carbon and added extra Prime. I am going to restart treatment after the carbon has been in for a day or so and I have performed a water change. I am suspicious that the "burning up" fans or rusty top may have gotten something in the fish's water. I had the tank totally uncovered because I had already dimmed it slightly for over a week up until 3-4 days ago. I put the blanket back on so it is over the tank, but not covering it significantly. Thanks so much for all of the help on this! I am very grateful for the patience and knowledgeable suggestions you guys are giving me. I pray the fish will be OK. I never imagined potentially losing more than 2-3 fish at once, but it may happen here if this continues. As of now, Puon, Aztec, and all the other are capable of making a comeback IF the right actions are taken. Unfortunately, I am basically in the dark about bottom-sitting at this time. I am a quite unhappy with all of this going on with my fish, but am NOT giving up and will do everything I can to help them. Renee
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Post by Carl on Aug 1, 2012 18:52:37 GMT -5
Maybe this is the problem, as this is very strange for your fish in particular to ALL shutdown at the same time, and this seriously (sorry I did not answer this aspect of your question earlier). I think your decision is an excellent one IMO. BTW, I sent you some Purigen in your order (no charge), this would be VERY good if this is the cause (sometimes more effective than carbon for many contaminants, especially if organic in nature). If this is the cause, there may be residual medical issue similar to how ammonia burns will often result in opportunistic diseases getting started, however as with high ammonia, removing the cause is most certainly step one. This is true, but our point was simply to establish a hierarchy of medicine strengths (which is why I did not recommend Potassium Permanganate) But thanks for clarifying this, as I know from stats; for every member online there are 50 "guests" who read what they need and leave; so your clarification may be helpful to a guest or other member. Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Sept 1, 2012 15:46:53 GMT -5
After a more aggressive treatment with a large medicated wondershell, medium medicated wondershell, and a 10 day treatment with Triple Sulfa, the fin rot appears to be in check. After the Triple Sulfa treatment was done, I left the medicated wonder shells in the tank with no carbon for a week plus. The fish that got mild tears in their fins appear to be healing very well (if not healed by now). And Wickren and Saylme (the fish worst hit) have moved from regrowth appearing in the form of new black edges to their fins to LOTS of clearish-white newly generated fins. Aside from Salyme (who is in the progess of fully regrowing its fins), Wickren's fins are almost fully regrown (barring that the new growth is still clearish-white). I am very happy with these results and pray the fin rot won't come back anytime soon! lol As for bad news, Oranda (a blind fish in a 10 gallon who is in with another blind fish named Foneme) came down with fin rot. I added a medium medicated wondershell and that alone really seems to be helping. Oranda's fins are looking better and Foneme never showed any signs of fin rot luckily. Will keep you posted! Renee
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Post by Carl on Sept 3, 2012 10:17:57 GMT -5
Congrats on effecting a recovery with your patience and persistence. With Oranda, there is little I can add other than if not for your patience and persistence I do not Oranda or you other fish would not be alive today Good luck with Oranda Carl
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