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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 24, 2012 17:07:34 GMT -5
So I seem to be having an issue with some of my goldfish in the 40 gallon. (8 goldfish total).
I noticed a couple of my fish had slightly ragged fins and tiny bit of black on the end. I suspected minor nitrite or ammonia poisoning since they were all acting fine- begging, eating, VERY active, etc. I tested the water, but all paramters were normal except the nitrate was 40. Nitrite was 0. I don't typically test for ammonia, so I didn't get a reading for it.
I did a 25% water change and cleaned the filter since that happened 2 weeks ago. Right now, the goldfish are currently due for another water change. (It has been 2 weeks).
I noticed my one healthiest goldfish- Salyme had several tears in its fins and a couple ragged edges. I noticed the problem with Salyme's fins 2 days ago and it looked more like the fins had been torn on something- dorsel and caudal(tail) fin than fin rot. The filter has a plant next to it, so I doubt the fish's fins got caught in the filter somehow. I was watching the fish yesterday to see if there was any aggression over food. I DID see Aztec, a smaller goldfish that keeps to itself and has a history of being a little accident prone mildly chase and nudge some of the other goldfish (who didn't seem to care and continued looking for food). I also noticed that during the first 10-15 minutes the food was in, they were SUPER enthusiastic. They were going nuts looking around the bottom and plastic plants for food, accidently bumping into each other, etc. Still, I did not see anything they did that could cause sudden fin damage.
Today, I became more alarmed because another very healthy fish in the tank, Wickren, had ragged fins- and not just one area. The dorsel, caudal, pectoral, anal, pelvic, (all the fins) looked like neat, little notches taken out of them almost like the something was trying to be neat while nipping off the edges of its fins. Again, all the fish are acting normal and there is no signs of stress I could see.
What is strange is the weaker fish that I WOULD expect to get torn fins, affected in a situation with poor water quality, or easily stressed do not have ragged fins, a minor tears, but nothing out of the ordinary. These fish include Aztec (this fish tears its tail fin very often to due the length of its fins and that it is kind of accident prone). Then, there is Alden, a fish that has had pretty harmless white nodules that come and go on its long tail fin for 4 years now. This fish also seems pretty unaffected.
I tested the water today and got:
Nitrate: 25-30
Nitrite: 0
GH: 180+ (this test kit can't read as high as my old one for some reason)
KH: 120-180 (I forgot which it was)
PH: between 7.0-7.5 (apologies, I forgot to write these down after I took the readings so I forgot what some were exactly)
I did not test for ammonia.
Any thoughts? I am going to get some pictures as soon as I can.
Renee
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 24, 2012 17:45:43 GMT -5
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Post by Carl on Jun 25, 2012 10:01:05 GMT -5
Renee, nothing is "jumping out" at me either with the aquarium conditions (as per parameters and your video) or the fish themselves (as per the pictures). Because of this, maybe darkening your tank for a day as you have done before might help in calming the fish (do not feed for this day). If you notice that the fish seem worse yet, I would try just a mild treatment of either Melafix & Pimafix or Triple Sulfa. Carl |
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 25, 2012 11:47:46 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Carl. Unfortunately, the fish's fins appear to be getting worse by the day.  They are still acting normal though. Wickren's fins are no longer worn down in a "neat" way. Instead, they are getting ragged- it is losing more of its fins. The same thing is happening to Hansel- another fish that is pretty healthy, has short fins, and very rarely gets any tears in its fins. Salyme's tail is showing signs of healing- it had whiteish new tissue showing up on its fins. I am considering trying the Melafix and Pimafix as of now and also not feeding, and instead observing the fish today. How likely do you think this could be fin rot? Is it possible at all that the fish have decided to one another's fins? Thanks for the help. Renee |
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 25, 2012 12:50:33 GMT -5
I watched the fish in non-eating mode for a while. I don't watch them as much as I should when they are not eating.
However, I noticed some issues.
1. Puon having buoyancy problems with its body traveling downward and therefore swimming upward slightly to prevent getting on the bottom.
2. Alden (a fish that has the nodules on its fins) itched twice and is not looking too happy. It itched the same side of its body, but did not do so again even after watching a while more. I looked briefly and did not see any ich.
3. Aztec seems weak and was swimming with its head pointed downward and its tail upward at times.
All of the fish came to beg when I approached the front of the tank even though I did not feed them. I suspect this could be nitrite or ammonia poisoning. I put in Prime and am going to be doing a water change in the next hour.
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 25, 2012 15:50:11 GMT -5
I finished the water change. I have opted to wait a bit to blanket the tank so I can observe a little more. Aztec appears to also be very mildly affected now as well. (Please ask for clarification with which fish is which since I know so many names can be hard to keep track of). Kona, Nemo, and Alden all still seem unaffected. I did a 40-45% water change and added a bit of extra Prime. My past experience leads me to believe I may be dealing with mild ammonia poisoning or something in the water. On a lighter note, I think Puon is unhappy about your suggestion Carl about not feeding the fish for a day. Puon was following my hand around for a large part of the time I was siphoning. This made it difficult to avoid hitting the fish, which was begging and pacing around me constantly to say, "Hey, you forgot to feed me today! Feed me now!" I am sticking to not feeding them for 24 hours, I is just funny to watch them get so excited I guess.  Renee |
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Post by Carl on Jun 25, 2012 18:32:12 GMT -5
Renee, part of my not feeding idea was to do this while under the blanket simply to give them a "quiet time" and reduce stress, which is what my thoughts are how this helps (it does not help for diseases such as Velvet or Aeromonus)
You can also give them MB Baths, but while I have had very good success with these baths, I am not sure this is the best option YET.
Another option is a Medicated Wonder Shell, but do not use this with the Melafix/Pimafix.
Speaking of Melafix/Pimafix, while this is a reasonably safe treatment (assuming healthy buffers which you have); treatment with Triple Sulfa is equally safe and yet is more effective from my experience with treating torn fins/fin rot.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 25, 2012 20:17:04 GMT -5
Thanks for the response, Carl! I understand now why you suggested making the tank darker. Though you made your suggestion clear before, I missed it. My apologies about that. :/ Since it is already 8 pm where I live, I am going to feed them tonight and try not feeding them along with the blanket tomorrow.Thanks for the warning about not using medicated wonder shells with Melafix and Pimafix. Triple Sulfa sounds like a good choice. Since I am pretty sure this is affecting most/all of the fish (Aztec now as well), I will need to treat the entire 40 gallon. I have a box of Triple Sulfa that is almost full and another that has maybe one dose left. So I would only be able to treat the tank with 2 doses instead of the required 4 doses for treatment (which is stated on the box). Would giving the fish only 1/2 the duration of treatment still be beneficial? Adding a medicated wonder shell to the tank sounds like a very good course of action as well IMO.
Also, are there any bacteria/pathogens that cause fins to rot away without other symptoms?I have a gut feeling this may be very mild ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Sparse, tiny sections areas of black that are on the edge of some of the fish's fins. Not all of the fish of course and it is just a tiny area. I spotted this on Wickren and Puon. I have seen this in the past with fish with ammonia/nitrite poisoning.
I never test my ammonia levels in my tanks- only nitrite, nitrate, PH, KH, and GH. Therefore, the nitrite could be 0, but perhaps the ammonia could be slightly elevated, like 0.2ppm? My tank heavily stocked. In the 40 gallon, there are 8 goldfish ranging from 2 1/ 2 inches (including fins) to a bit over 5 inches (again including fins). I have a Hydro sponge #3 filter and an AquaClear made for 60 gallon tanks. I have also been late on water changes (sometimes by a week) lately due to a variety of reasons. I do a top-off normally though. Last, about 3-4 weeks ago, the temperature in the house was in the lower 80s for several days and water was leaking from the bathtub I use for water changes (which made it hard to do water changes on anything besides my smaller tanks). I got heat exhaustion at one point and did not clean the tank really- only performed quick top-offs of a few gallons due to how much I was sweating/overheating. To the point, I think ammonia poisoning may be a possibility due to how I have not been able/ been late on water changes for the 40 gallon recently. Though I suspect this could be something related to ammonia in the water, I am not 100% sure. I may just have to follow my instincts a bit on this. And even taking somewhat of a shot in the dark here with what the cause is/could be, your recommendations are very good since Triple Sulfa, Melafix, and Pimafix are all good medications for fish with fin damage. (Sorry if I rambled a bit in this post.) Renee UPDATE: Aztec now was a red cut on the end of part of its tail fin and so does Saylme, only less bright/severe. Saylme also now has a hole in one of its fins.
I fed the fish, blanketed the tank so it is super dark, and added two small non-medicated wondershells. (The non-medciated wondershells should not cause any problem if I add a medicated wondershell later due to their very small size). I am going to see how the fish are in the morning and take action then based on what I see. I will likely treat with Triple Sulfa and a medicated wondershell. As for not having enough Triple Sulfa for the full treatment duration, I can ask my mom to borrow her car to go to Petsmart for more. I could act this moment, but I do not want to act on impulse and make any rash decisions.
I forgot to add I did a large water change today, about 45% and cleaned the plastic plants and sides of the tank. Levels basically the same after the water change only the nitrate is under 15 now. |
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Post by Carl on Jun 26, 2012 9:36:42 GMT -5
Renee,
First I seriously doubt that you had/have an ammonia problem as this is very rare in a healthy established tank such as yours.
Furthermore, I too rarely test ammonia in tanks such as yours opting to use test strips that only test nitrites and other parameters with more importance in an established aquarium. If the ammonia went up, the nitrites would follow, so if your nitrites were 0, your ammonia never spiked to any dangerous level.
An ammonia level of .2 is not going to cause any problems and also may not cause any rise discernible in nitrites later.
I strongly suggest using all four treatments of Triple Sulfa.
This can also be used with a Medicated Wonder Shell (which should be at full strength, not diluted with regular Wonder Shells)
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 26, 2012 22:28:20 GMT -5
Thanks for the reply Carl. The ammonia poisoning was/is only an educated guess. Though I have had doubts at first, I agree it is quite unlikely now that ammonia poisoining is the cause. I waited until morning to treat the fish as I had planned. I saw black edges to their fins and more fin damage in the morning. I am think this is not ammonia poisoning and instead, fin rot. I do not see any signs of Saprolegnia or Columnaris which has a similar effect of causing ragged fins. After a bit of searching online, it seems that are are several kinds of bacteria that can cause a fish's fins to become ragged. Is there any type that causes fins damage alone and has no other physical effects? I have not seen symptoms of aeromonas and vibrio like ulcers, popeye, lesions, etc. on any of my fish... YET.I added a full dose of Triple Sulfa and one large medicated wonder shell. I picked up more Triple Sulfa after my college class, so I will be able to give the full four doses. I currently have the tank thoroughly covered and did not feed the fish today. Would you recommend holding off on feeding them for a couple more days? I don't want them to get too excited accidently tear their fins more while hyperactively searching for food, but I don't want to fast them for too long either.I hope that the two small non-medicated wonder shells in the tank won't hurt the effectiveness of the large medicated wonder shell I added significantly. Thanks again for the help, Carl! It is greatly appreciated! Renee |
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Post by Carl on Jun 27, 2012 9:33:23 GMT -5
Renee, I personally do not like to go more than 72 hours for feeding fish such as goldfish in normal water temperatures. This is based on observations though.
The small Wonder Shells will slow the dissolving of the large Medicated one you added
Pseudomonas is a common cause of fin rot which often causes few other symptoms. BTW, Wikipedia's article on the subject is highly inaccurate.
Aeromonas can also cause fin rot, but often with more symptoms
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 27, 2012 12:35:48 GMT -5
I will begin feeding them again today then. It has been about 34 hours since they were last fed and they are making it clear that they want to be fed. I see. I did not think of this. Would you recommend fishing them out? (I can put them in a bag and re-add them to the 40 gallon at a later time.) Agreed. This is why I don't use Wikipedia when doing research on fish diseases. Today, the fish's fins aren't looking any worse which is excellent! However, Saylme has a small red dot on top of its head and the area around Wickren's right gill cover looks a darker orange than usual. It does not look bright red or anything, but this fish is a bright gold and kind of hard to tell on. Coincidently perhaps, Salyme likes to nip at Wickren around this area when the fish are begging for food- though Wickren normally just swims away a bit and everything is fine. Poor Puon is having some pretty bad issues not getting stuck at the bottom, so it looks like I am going to have to put the poor fish in a the 1 gallon container with holes in the tank so it can reach the surface. Renee |
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Post by Carl on Jun 28, 2012 9:39:56 GMT -5
Yes, this is what I was suggesting
Keep an eye on the "red dot" for now, (maybe a bath later)
Regards;
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 29, 2012 14:48:27 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying. I removed the 2 small non-medicated wonder shells. As for Salyme, the red dot doesn't seem to be getting worse. The fin rot has also stopped progressing!  The fin damage is not severe and the fish should be able to heal up fine. I added the third dose of Triple Sulfa. The fish, like every time I add the Triple Sulfa rush over to try to eat it. They think it is food every time I put it in, but then spit it out. Though I am a bit concerned this could harm them, not to mention irritate their gills when it goes near them, at least they are making an extra effort to take their medicine. lol I am doing to dissolve the medicine in a container of tank water from now on before adding it. I don't want them to get hurt. They do the same thing whenever I added the powder Marine Buffer. :/ By the way, a huge compliment to you on your price for Triple Sulfa, Carl! At Petsmart, it was being sold for $15 or $16! And yours is sold for only $7.79! Whenever I want to get something, I am definitely going to see if you have it before I try other pet stores! You run an excellent business Carl and your service, shipping time, and prices are unbeatable! Thanks again for all the help you have given me with the goldfish. You have been very patient when I missed the point of a couple posts as well. I will keep you posted on how the fish do. Renee |
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Post by Carl on Jun 29, 2012 20:07:24 GMT -5
Glad to read progress is being made  The Triple Sulfa will not harm them and in fact a little being ingested is frankly all the better, so I would encourage this behavior Thanks for the compliment! We make very little per sale and operate on volume and extreme efficiency This is where it gets very frustrating too as we often get get emails and more so phone calls from persons that refuse to read our material and then take up 30 minutes for a product we make $2 on. This is why we just recently ran the numbers and realized that our phone line actually lost us money based on sales and time with customers that went no where. We just took this down as of last week. Carl |
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Post by parker002 on Jun 30, 2012 10:03:48 GMT -5
This is why we just recently ran the numbers and realized that our phone line actually lost us money based on sales and time with customers that went no where. We just took this down as of last week. Carl Good call. Those of us that buy from you and respect your advice would appreciate it if you could make a little money and STAY IN BUSINESS. |
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Post by Carl on Jun 30, 2012 10:58:18 GMT -5
Thanks Parker!
The hard part has been the stress from long hours and so many demanding and even rude customers. We have a relatively new employee (from Dec. of 2011) who is a psychology major in college, he just recently noted that "he could have never imagined people could be so demanding, rude and insulting until he came to work here".
My neoropathy has become a very rare extreme case as per my Doctor in my last visit (Wed), and the hours and stress are major contributors (according to the Dr.).
I am sorry to complain, only to point out that this is the only thing stopping me from continuing in business, which on a positive note is still continuing to grow.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 30, 2012 14:38:57 GMT -5
Thanks. I will continue to add it directly to the tank then. I suppose the fish having endless appetites is good for more than just being very entertaining. lol Puon never had to be put in the floating 1 gallon container with holes after all. After feeding, the fish woke up a bit (I think it hay have been sleeping not long before), sucked some air, and the problem corrected itself. As of yesterday, the dot on Saylme seems the same and the fish is acting like it could care less. The only thing on its mind is food! lol You're welcome Carl. It is very good you found that out about the phone. I agree wholeheartedly with Parker. You need to be making something more than $2 a sale off all the free advice and services you are giving. With all due respect, Carl, I also I think prices should be raised a little. If you priced items like Triple Sulfa for $0.75 more, you would get much more of a profit ($2.00 is all you make at the moment from selling one) and would still have a super low price. And on this line of thought, if you sold the Triple Sulfas for $9 a piece, even with $10 of shipping and handling, I would STILL have saved more than $2 plus gas money versus if I had bought the fish medication at Petsmart. O.O Honestly, if I had not needed more medicine to treat my fish ASAP (or known your going price for Triple Sulfa), I would have bought it straight from you. Now I wish I had waited another ordered from you and waited a day or two more to treat the fish. They would have been fine even then IMHO. Plus I you and your business would have been benefited. Not to be too blunt, but you have every right to complain/vent Carl! No one should be treating you like that and at the VERY least, offer a thank you if they take up your time without buying from you! You deserve better than this. You should really not let these people do this to you you and instead do what is best for your family and your business. Seriously, we all think you run an excellent company Carl, and I personally would rather see your prices double and not be so free to answer questions than seeing you continue working 12+ hours a day than be forced to shut down your business sometime down the line due to serious health issues brought on by such constant stress. I am afraid I agree with the doctor that a lot of your health problems likely have been worsened or caused by years of constant stress as well. My apologies if what I said was too blunt and/or out of line, but I feel I must speak my mind on this. Take care and please try to take it easy every now and then. P.S.: If my message is not appropriate to put in this forum, please let me know and I will delete it and repost in the Lounge or resend it via PM. Renee |
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 30, 2012 18:22:34 GMT -5
I have some bad news. I took the dark covers completely off the tank for the first time in a few days. Salyme and Wickren still seem to be losing some finnage, though the fins loss seems to have slowed quite a bit. Kona and Nemo still don't seem to have any fin damage.
I may have to trim the affected edges of Wickren's fins... the problem is that it seems to have minorly affected all of its fins, so I would just have to trim the worst parts. I hope I won't end up having to do that, but the fact that the fin deteroriation has slowed is still promising.
Wickren has black all along the edges of its dorsel fin. I don't think this is affecting the fish negatively all that much in regard to their fins, but the water temperature has been about 77-78 F lately due to the temperature in the house. My mother is trying to keep the A/C at a higher setting to save on the electric bill.
Renee
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Post by Carl on Jun 30, 2012 19:23:51 GMT -5
I would not stress too much from what you see.
If at all possible a Methylene Blue Bath (with salt) might be a good thing to do.
Watch for progression into body tissue as this can indicate a more serious infection such as Columnaris.
The black on the edges is not necessarily always a bad thing, I have observed this during the healing of fish with mild to moderate fin rot.
Carl
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The fin damage is not severe and the fish should be able to heal up fine.
