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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 19, 2012 9:13:26 GMT -5
Monkey Face came down with it about a month ago. I have been doing PP dips, all kinds of medicated water, kept in Meth Blue water.... Now I'm down to extreme salt baths...like 1 tpsp of salt in 1/2 g of water. This is helping with the rotting look of his fins, but now he is pineconing. I know I'm going to loose him......but Big Blue is looking ragged. BB has lost 1 of his ventrals, most of the other, tail rot is starting. The only thing I haven't tried is oxytetracycline. I have NEVER had a survivor from this....I'd really like BB to live  I've read and reread Carl's article and can't figure out what I am missing. I know BB got it from me changing MF's water and NOT washing my hands. I'm bleaching EVERYTHING right now. MF and BB get their containers bleached daily with daily water changes. Should I NOT change their water daily? Is that why the meds don't seem to work? HELP!!!!! |
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Post by Carl on Jun 19, 2012 9:26:29 GMT -5
Sorry for the problem Lori  I would at this time use the Potassium Permanganate for separate swabs, alternating with baths at another time of the day. Use MB, salt, and Kanaplex in this bath. Since pineconing is invloved with Monkey Face, Neomycin might be added to this cocktail. As for Oxytetracycline, this is a consideration, but after using Kanamycin, Nitrofurazone (Furan 2), or maybe Triple Sulfa in baths (or in tank treatments). You also might consider a treatment of baths, swabs, and in tank use a more mild treatment of only a Medicated wonder Shell (which actually work well in combination with baths containing stronger antibiotics) As for changing water daily, I doubt this is causing any disease resistance, however this does have both positive and negative attributes. POSITIVE: * Clean water *Assuming electrolyte rich new water, this can maintain healthy Redox *Low ammonia *Low nitrates NEGATIVE: *Stress *possible pH Shock *If new water is of poor mineral quality, this can cause more problems than help Please add any more details as you remember Carl *If new water is |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 19, 2012 12:54:45 GMT -5
Sorry for the problem Lori This is the closest I have come to saving one from Columnaris...only to end up killing him/her due to ME. Is the 1TBSP of salt to 1/2g too much? I am worried that I am causing the pine coning by going from that much salt in a 30 min bath (salt/treated water) back into water that is only 1 tbsp per 5g. Water sits over night in the same room...usually the same shelf. Room has no AC or ceiling fan, so it is warm (not hot, but like around 74* at all times). Read that cooler temps help. I would at this time use the Potassium Permanganate for separate swabs, alternating with baths at another time of the day. I can do this. (with MF)I had been doing a PP dip first thing in the morning before my shower, then after my shower, I'd put him back into clean water. I can do a swabbing first thing in the morning on BB, and a bath once I get home from work. Use MB, salt, and Kanaplex in this bath. Since pineconing is invloved with Monkey Face, Neomycin might be added to this cocktail. Recommended dosage? I keep 1g water jugs made up at any given time, so I can make them up by the gallon. This would give me a 1/2g bath for each of them. As for Oxytetracycline, this is a consideration, but after using Kanamycin, Nitrofurazone (Furan 2), or maybe Triple Sulfa in baths (or in tank treatments). This I understand...lol...I'll have to double ck that my Furan2 is not all gone. I know how to break this down into 1g treatments. BB has PopEye so he is also being treated with M....I'll post which one once I get home. I don't have my meds list on the computer yet. You also might consider a treatment of baths, swabs, and in tank use a more mild treatment of only a Medicated wonder Shell (which actually work well in combination with baths containing stronger antibiotics) I have 2 - 2.5g tanks that I could move them too for further treatment. They are in "critter keepers" that are about 1/4g maybe of water. To me it is WAY easier on them and me to do daily water changes and bleach treatments to the containers. As for changing water daily, I doubt this is causing any disease resistance, however this does have both positive and negative attributes. POSITIVE: * Clean water *Assuming electrolyte rich new water, this can maintain healthy Redox *Low ammonia *Low nitrates NEGATIVE: *Stress *possible pH Shock *If new water is of poor mineral quality, this can cause more problems than help Please add any more details as you remember Carl *If new water is I make up about 16 or so gallons at a time (I'll have to count the 1g jugs I have). I don't think there is a pH shock. Our water comes from a lake...in an area that is calithchie?....white rock...I just got a new gH,kH test kit. so i'll post the readings when I get home...the treated water..not tap. Carl...if it was you fish would you continue the daily water changes or every 2 days? Also...I have been doing new bath water...as in after the baths, the water gets dumped and new water used the next day. I also put BB in first, then 30 mins later (give or take the time to get them moved), MF get a bath in the same water. This probably ISNT a good idea right...Sorry...I'm just so stressed. |
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Post by Carl on Jun 19, 2012 13:50:36 GMT -5
1 tablespoon per 1/2 gallon is way too much for anything other than a 30 second dip. I would not go past 2 TEASPOONS per gallon (1 is my general salt max for labyrinth fish), and even this can be very stressful to a Betta Keep in mind that high salt levels literally "suck" the moisture out of a freshwater fish I would use double recommended in-tank dosage with any antibiotic, and then add this immediately at the time of bath so that there is no degradation of the antibiotic These larger containers might be better IMO. Be careful with bleaching and any possible residual affect. In my experience bleaching only need be done with a new tank set up after a none major disease outbreak, not as part of a regular cleaning regimen since we as aquarium or pond keepers are only seeking a clean environment, not a sterile environment. My sister who is biochemist has told me n many occasions that with humans keeping too sterile an environment for normal person (not compromised immune systems persons) can actually results in much lower disease resistance Your tap water seems fine, but it is still important to know your new water pH, ammonia, nitrites as well as tank water pH, ammonia, nitrites prior to water changes so as to make sure to not change parameters too quickly (especially pH). I would change water every other day, but more importantly I might not change 100% each time even if done daily. Bath water should be from the same tank the fish came from and should be disposed of every time, never reused unless the fish comes from the same tank and they are bathed at the same time. See this fish bath article: www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.htmlCarl |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 20, 2012 9:54:45 GMT -5
Big Blue died this morning . Monkey face is actually looking swollen now. He had only had the edging of his scales sticking out. This morning his skin is looking stretched. I know I did this too him by doing the salt baths with WAY to much salt in it. I do have 2 girls with a small amount of what looks like regular fin rot/damage from spawning. I think on these girls, I'll start out with the PP and/or H2O2 swabs. Edit: My betta are housed in about 32 oz of water. Single tanks and are only put together for spawning....except for the fry growing out. This is why they get daily water changes. I don't mess with the pH at all. The fish with the issues were born/hatched in this water. I had been using just Prime in tap water. I had quit using salt in my water because "show" water doesn't have extra salt. I started adding salt again, and will continue to use salt. I'm tired of issues |
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Post by parker002 on Jun 20, 2012 9:57:38 GMT -5
That sucks. Sorry for your loss.
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 20, 2012 13:53:12 GMT -5
Thanks parker...this is the down side of owning fish. The joy of seeing beautiful fish makes it worth the heartache  Once I get one to survive, then it won't be hard to repeat the process. Columnaris is my nemesis. |
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Post by Carl on Jun 20, 2012 15:57:14 GMT -5
Sorry for your loss Lori; BB was a beautiful fish.
A few thoughts:
*The use of salt in low amounts should not cause a problem for the Bettas when in show without salt
*I do want not you to worry about chasing pH, in fact I note in many places to not go on "pH chases".
My concern is pH shock during water changes, or transfers as this is a real danger and I know as a fact can and does kill
*Columnaris is a difficult disease, but since stress, high temperatures, and lowered immunity are the "big three" causes in my experience, eliminating these potential problems as much as possible should help
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Jun 21, 2012 1:46:21 GMT -5
Sorry to hear of your loss Lori. You did everything you could. I have treated fish (I forgot if it was Saprolegnia or Columnaris) successfully in the past with a Pimafix/Melafix combo. Of course, 1 out of the 3 guppies I was treating did die and that was actually a pretty mild treatment- your case sounds more severe. I hope the rest of your fish are doing well Lori. Renee |
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 21, 2012 9:17:51 GMT -5
BB came down with it when I put him in the spawning tank..ie..Stress and High Temps (I add the fish to room temp waters (they are kept at room temp..74*F), then I turn the heater on and it warms the water to 80*F). I don't remember when/how MF came down with it. Maybe the same thing. He was spawned about a month ago. Thanks Renee  |
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Post by Carl on Jun 21, 2012 10:01:37 GMT -5
Lori, could you provide any pictures for others (myself included) to look over?
Pictures of BB while infected would help.
Also pictures of your Betta homes and anything else you might think would help me and others to put an end to this problem.
Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 22, 2012 11:41:50 GMT -5
I'll take pictures tonight after I do my daily water changes of how the fish are kept.
This is the first time that I have lost 2 at the same time to it. I also don't get it very often. Maybe 4 or 5 cases in the last 2 yrs?, but I'd like to not loose any more fish.
I froze MF (wish I had thought to freeze BB after he died), and a friend of mine will take the body back with him to Oklahoma and culture him. My friend is a science teacher at the local HS, and an Adjent Professor at the near by College.
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Post by Carl on Jun 22, 2012 13:11:47 GMT -5
This is an excellent idea, as this can hopefully confirm exactly the pathogen we are dealing with
This is good to know, as I was under the false assumption this was a major issue.
Based on this information, I think you are doing quite well.
This would still be helpful along with the culture so as to make sure this is only a "fluke problem"
Carl
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Post by Suzie Q (Lori) on Jun 22, 2012 14:41:30 GMT -5
Thanks Carl. I'm sorry it came off as an on going problem. I just wish I could save the fish. The last one to come down with it was that Black short finned HM. It looked like he bit his dorsal (being short finned it is impossible...short finned look like a Plakat Male Betta)...then about 3 weeks later he had no fins what so ever. This was ummmmm back in ummmmm January? February? March?.....it was before the show season in April this year. The one before that...I think it might have been that PK girl that I did a full strength swab....I guess I did save one . |
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