Cataract?

[goldenpuon]

I have had all of my goldfish many years and some are developing problems.

The latest fish to develop a problem Foneme, which has one eye that seems cloudy on the outside as if it has a cataract (it looks like a minor eye cloud). It does not appear severe and I see the that anything is wrong with the eye much or at all unless the fish swims by very close. The fish can also see well (I tested the fish by putting my finger in front of the glass) from its unaffected by and fairly well from its affected eye

However, I am concerned that this could be more than age. I recall thinking I saw something odd with one of Foneme's eyes the past 2 weeks when I saw it swim by (aka what I am describing now).

Based on my observations, Foneme's eye problem started not long after my goldfish Hansel (who is in the same 40 gallon tank) came down with a different eye problem. (Hansel got some kind of internal damage to one of its eyes from unkown causes. The eye has much rusty orangish coloration to the eye, a small white area on the pupil, and noticable clouding. What I just described are inside the lens part of the eye, and not external. It is also not progressing at all. )

Given the two occurances in about a month to month and a half of each other, I am concerned that (though the chances are fairly low), that the problems could be connceted. Like perhaps a parasite is infecting the fish but progressing very slowly due to ideal tank conditions and the excellent care I give the fish.

None of the other fish appear to be affected (I checked their eyes) and I am pretty sure, NOT 100%, that the issue is only with one of Foneme's eyes.

I think if it isn't a disease, this is a genetic/age based thing. I have had this fish 6 years. As well, a goldfish I got with it that is blind and in a different tank, Oranda, got what seemed to be an eye cloud at first (exactly like this only with both eyes). It has been 3 years since Oranda's eye problems started and Oranda now has large clear sacs that have grown over both of its eyes.

That said, I do not know if what Foneme has is progressive IF it is genetic/age linked. But if this is progressive and genetic/age linked (aka non-contageous) and renders the fish unable to see well enough to get enough food compared to the other goldfish in the tank in the future, I will have separate it so it will be able to get enough food. This problem because, in this case, though Foneme would be fine to keep with Oranda (the blind fish I mentioned above) and Puon who has varying bloatation issues, both Puon and Oranda are in a 10 gallon together. Though there would be next to no problem in terms of bio-load (nitrates are around 5 in that tank), I refuse to keep 3 goldfish in a 10 gallon due to overcrowding and stunting.

I have another empty 10 gallon but don't have the time or space really to set it up and putting the fish in with Puon and Oranda is not an option IMO.

I know this is a judgement call. However, given the details, how likely is it that this is something contageous/ a disease? As well, if this is a genetic slowly progressing problem (such as what Oranda has), what would you recommend based on my options?

Apologies for this message's length/excessive detail.

Thanks.
Renee

Note: Oranda and Foneme have developed eye problems, but the third fish I got at the same time at store as them, Aztec, has none of the problems they have.

[Carl]

As per your options, if this is a genetic/age based problem (which is my suspicion based on the history and tank care), can you keep the poor vision/blind goldfish together in the 40 gallon and move the better sighted goldfish to the 10 gallon? What about a tank divider (even if temporary at feeding time).

I seriously doubt a parasite, as this is not a common symptom, plus the history/care does not indicate this.

If there is any pathogen (which even here I doubt) it would be Streptococcus which is best treated in a hospital tank ALONG with swabs and baths

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the prompt response Carl.

I would like to do that, (keeping all the blind goldfish in the 40 gallon), but the problem is I would need 4 more 10 gallons! LOL Hansel is still sighted (aka able to eat well), so given all the fish currently in my 40 gallon (Hansel included) that I know do not have eye problems or progessive eye problems, that is a total of 7 fish. Two of them are 4 inches in body length and measure 6 inches if fins are included. So a 40 gallon is likely not the healthiest choice. lol

I tank divider is an idea. However, it would have to be in there permanently. Getting 7 goldfish to one side of the tank who want food and 1 to the other side of the tank divider twice per day would be very very difficult. Admittedly, I have had a very hard time with tank dividers for my goldfish in the past. They love to figure out ways to somehow squeeze through any tiny nook or cranny and get to the other side to get more food or somehow gulp food through the holes in it. But your idea is a good one. If it progesses to the point where Foneme can't see, I'll just have to put in a permenant tank divider.

However, I am hoping not and will just have to see how it goes. If it gets very bad like that, then I will get a tank divider in there.

I'll just have to see how it goes. Thanks for your input.

Renee

[babygeige]

What about using a turkey baster to deliver food right to the fish who needs help? I used to do that for my angel fish before he was fast enough to beat the tetras to the food.

[goldenpuon]

Babygeige, that is actually a good idea! I would like to point out Foneme's cataract is mild at this point and the fish can see well. However, I do expect ti to possibly get worse.

Foneme has been underweight a few years now and so has Aztec to some degree. (Both are some of my oldest goldfish. As well, Oranda (the blind goldfish in a 10 gallon with Puon) has been having more trouble getting food since Puon improved on getting food into its mouth at a faster rate (Puon has a mouth deformity).

This is an excellent non-invasive idea for feeding the fish to make sure they get enough! I would expect them to be nervous at first, but once they learn the baster is not a danger and actually a food provider, they will actively seek it out. I'll just have to be clearful the bigger, pushier fish don't get too much.

Thanks again. That was very very helpful!

Renee

[babygeige]

You're welcome! I find it to be a very helpful thing. Once they figure out it's not a scary thing (which doesn't take long at all), it makes a big difference. Sometimes the pushy fish will try to get at it, but then you just don't squeeze any food out and kind of nudge that fish away.

[goldenpuon]

It definitely is. I haven't started with Foneme on the turkey baster because the fish can see well enough to eat at this point as the cataract is very mild. (Hopefully this is nonprogressive).

Gentle nudging is also a good idea too to keep away the bigger, more pushy fish. Some of the fish in the tank are quite big and have almost no possiblity of being harmed at all by nudging. Thanks again for the help!

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Unfortuanetly, Foneme is now almost completely blind. I was wondering why Foneme hadn;t seemed to notice the food when I put it in and had a delayed response to going into feeding mode.

As it turns out, the cataracts (or whatever Foneme has that is affecting its vision) is much more noticable now. I determined that Puon would be ok in the 40 gallon and this point and moved Puon over to the 40 gallon Saturday and Foneme over to the 10 gallon with my other blind goldfish Oranda Sunday.

Both seem to be adjusting well and Foneme seems fine despite a rough capture. What is ironic though is Oranda (who has a mental map of its tank and has been blind 3 years) is able to out compete Foneme for food at this point. Hopefully, Foneme will learn the signals that food is being put into the tank soon (vibrations in the water, sound/vibrations from food container being opened, detecting that Oranda is going into food-search mode, etc.)

I am hoping that if Foneme has the same genetic problem that Oranda has (which caused Oranda to go blind), that it will not be as severe. Oranda looks like an alien at this point thought it is not suiffering and appears heathy otherwise. However, it is likely that Foneme has the same genetic problem as Oranda becuase both I got them at the same store at the same time and the symptoms of Foneme so far match what happened to Orabnd when this first started.

As of now, Foneme's pupils look like they have white on them but there is no sacs on the eyes yet. If Foneme's case is like Oranda's, they won't show a lot for another 6 months.

Lastly, I'd like to note that before i added Foneme into the 10 gallon with Oranda, both fish had been seperated from each other in different tanks for 6 years, so Foneme''s problem being caused by a pathogen from Oranda is not possible.

I feel bad for Foneme and what I think will happen to it in time with its eyes. I know that there is no way to reverse what has happened to Oranda at this point, but if there might be for Foneme (though I doubt it), please let me know.

Thanks.
Renee

[Carl]

Can you get a current close up picture of Foneme?

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I think I can. Foneme an barely see and should not be skittish around cameras because of this.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

I got the pictures.


NOTE: One side of Foneme's mouth seems longer than the other. This is actually something I noticed about the fish a year or so ago, but the fish was not like that originall and the cause is not known.

Foneme from side/front view.


Foneme side view.

Foneme from front


Foneme's half alien/ half goldfish tankmate Oranda. Notice the clear lense growing over part of the fish's already covered eye.


Last, here is a video of the one. They are not very happy after I look a lot of pictures of them,. They are blind, but they can still detect movement with their lateral lines and tell when I am very close or doing something with the tank. (Sorry for the bad quality as well.)
s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/?action=view¤t=100_4831.mp4

Renee

[Carl]

The pictures are definitely helpful!

I think you called it correctly as per a Cataract.

Even if not a cataract I feel quite confident in saying that this is not a case of an eye infection (often caused by Streptococcus)

I would not bother treating Foneme unless you see any type of infection or growth on the eye lens itself.
Foneme actually looks quite healthy otherwise and likely your excellent care is why. This same excellent care should prevent this from becoming a problem other than blindness.
I suspect age, early life exposure toxic ammonia (being a rescued feeder fish) and genetics are the main case of this problem.

Oranda looks worse off, although there is not much that can be done for lens issue in his right eye, but the other eye I could not see well, however it appeared that the outer eye might have some infection?

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the feedback.

Unfortunately, I believe this is genetic. With Oranda, this started from the inside of the 3 years ago in winter of 2008.


This IS showing so far to be progressive for Foneme becuase at first the cataracts were barely noticable and within a 1 1/2 months, are very obvious. I think Foneme could very likely end up like Oranda. When Oranda first got this, the symptoms were exactly the same and these fish also came from the same store at the same time. The fact that none of the other fish in the 40 gallon Foneme was in have this (excluding Hansel who has an internal eye injury that is NOT like this nor proegressive) shows that it is very likely the origin of/egentics of these fish that is the cause.

Also, with Oranda, tissue has built up inside the fish's lenses. The left eye is the same as the right only the right side has a lense growing over the other where as the left does not or not as much. So they are the same only the right eye is more severe. What kind of infection do you suspect in the left eye?

Here are some pictures of Otranda back when Puon was in the tank. Oranda's eyes are 95% unchanged from the time teh first two were taken (which was June of this year).

Oranda's left eye


Oranda front view


Picture of Oranda from 2 1/2 years ago. Back when I had only had Oranda 3 1/2 years. This is roughly 1/2 a year after the eye problems started.

[Carl]

With the new pictures, I do not see an infection that I can tell.
Considering the progression and lack of other problems I think you are correct as per genetic causes, although ammonia poisoning when young still could be a factor if only in part (especially since they came from the same source).

Carl

[sammiesam]

This is a random side note - but I thought it was interesting how your Oranda has lost all of her color because one of my goldies, Howie has also lost all of his color over the years and he too has alot of genetic defects as I had bought him as a feeder fish but couldn't bare getting rid of him in the end. I wonder if that has something to do with their health and the fact that they both have genetic problems.
Although in the last 2 months mine has gotten some orange back on his gills and chin and a single scale is orange again. So random, but I am thinking this is a good thing

[goldenpuon]

Carl, I am happy that you don't see any infection with Oranda.

Sammie, that's a very good observation. I have been wondering the same thing myself. The color change was very gradual, Oranda went from being white with an orange cap to a pinkish-white within 1 1/2 years after this started. I have seen my goldfish turn from dark grey to a deep gold in time ranging from a year to even a few months and one that stayed gray for many years (Puon) and has slowly changed to a semi-light goldfish over 2 years. These were not changes that had to do with deformities or course, but things such as the fish going in some cases from their dark grey juvenile coloring to their adult gold coloring. I have heard that one can't expect a goldfish they buy at the store to stay the same color as when they were bought.

Still, with Oranda, the color change that happened starting with the beginning of this eye problem makes me wonder if there is any correlation. Before, Oranda was consistently white with a gold cap with no changes in color what so ever. I think there may very well be a correlation between the appearance of Oranda's eye problem and the color change/loss (although with how much goldfish naturally change color normally, it is hard to prove.)

Either way, if Foneme turns out to have the same genetic defect and loses color over time like Oranda did (Foneme has been a pure golden color all of 6 years I have had it), I'll have more conclusive evidence about this. For now, it is an educated guess.

Out of curiosity, can you describe the genetic defects of your goldfish that has lost color over time Sammie? Thanks for the feedback as well Sammie.

Renee

[sammiesam]

Howie started out, waaaaaayyyy long time ago when I got him kind of orange and white mixed patches. Then probably about 3 years ago he lost all of his color completely and turned this kind of ugly yellow tint color for about a year and a half and now he's just fully white and looks a bit healthier and like I said, in the last couple months he's starting to get some orange spots back on his gills and one single scale is orange.

His defects are mainly:
1) loss of scales, randomly he probably losses and grows his scales back on a daily basis and at any given time he can be missing/regrowing up to 50% of his scales. it looks kind of creepy...my older sister who fishes says that it looks like hes been scaled all the time because the ones that are growing back are clear and not shiney.

2) weight problem/bloating, regardless of what he gets fed or how often, he is MASSIVE and he looks super fat but is definitely not overfed and only gets top quality goldfish pellets

3) For about a year and a half - 2 years he turned this really ugly yellow tint, almost like jaundice in humans, but that's cleared up

Also all three of my goldies seem to have eye issues like yours do.
As you saw with my post with Jaws, my fan tail and his now darkened eye
But also my other two seem to have blackened spots around their eye, like the cornea portion where its supposed to be silver has streaks of black in it, it kind of looks like its almost wearing out and you can see the black of the pupil underneath or something

[goldenpuon]

Sorry to hear that he has those defects. It sounds like my poor goldfish Puon: bloating, jaw deformity and mouth shape, and trouble eating large pieces of food due to how its mouth is.

I think that color change may be normal and possibly (only a guess) not have anything to do with the fish's deformities. I had a dark grey goldfish (Wickren)switch to a coppery color, then yellow with some black on its fins and head, and then turn to a bright orange with no black over only a few months which 1-2 years after I got the fish. It has stayed gold since.

1. I have not seen this as an age related problem in my own goldfish. Could it be some kind of infection or sensitivity? It could be genetic but that they keep falling off and growing back seems odd. With my own goldfish, I have had them lose scales here and there at random on pretty seldom occasions. They don't normally grow back, but 95% plus of the scales on my fish have never come off.

2. For the bloating, this sounds kind of like what Puon has on and off. Is your goldfish a fancy goldfish or a comet/common goldfish? (Puon is a comet goldfish btw).

3. I have had this happen with fish that were changing over from their juvenile light or dark grey (which may even have been a couple years after I have gotten them in some cases. ) to gold. I am unsure if that is what was going on with your fish. I wonder if it could have something to dow ith the scale loss? Fish are typically have a very dull light orange area (or even white) if they are gold and lose a scale and typically even an even lighter area is left behind if they are lighter in color and lose a scale.

Yeah, I guess goldfish's eyes often go bad as they age. (I hope none are as serious as with Oranda though.) 3/10 of my goldfish have some kind of eye problem.

Mine also have this too (as least what you seem to be describing). Several of my goldfish (especially Kona andf Puon) who have no known eye problems have some black on the irises on their eyes. It looks like they are just markings though. I'll post some pictures when I can so you can see if my fish have what you are describing as well. I have always assumed that was normal with goldfish for dark markings on the iris, but perhaps it isn't.

Renee

[Carl]

I too have witnessed these color changes on many occasions, especially with feeder fish that are kept as pets (often in ponds).

Besides genetics, I still feel that early environment and continued environment plays a role. Ammonia poisoning directly affect proteins in the body, and these proteins affect pigments.

Here is an article:
protist.biology.washington.edu/dparichy/Parichy2003.pdf

Regards;
Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for posting this article Carl. I read it a week or so ago and found it quite interesting. As for Foneme, I have determined it is not completely blind! At least not yet.... It seems to be able to see a bit from its left eye (the less affected one) because it still begs for food (something blind fish don't do because they can't see the person in front of the tank) and tries to nibble at my finger when I put my finger near the glass.

Unfortunately, Oranda has not been doing as well as of late. It has those spots on its super long tail (like Alden), but all the same is not contageous to Foneme. As well, I have not mentioned this, but Oranda has had those tail sores/spots on its tail like Alden before. It has do to with that its fins are VERY long (the length of its body) and often end up resting partially on the bottom of the tank at night when the fish is resting leaving the fins prone.

I have not idea if Oranda's time is coming fairly soon or even years from now. These fish love to surprise me and Oranda is NOT anywhere near death, just doesn't seem as well/coordinated as it should.

Both Foneme and Oranda are in a very well-maintained 10 gallon, not the 40 gallon.

Renee