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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 4, 2011 12:55:18 GMT -5
I have a 1 inch male guppy named French Fry that is at least 2 1/2. Even though he is very old, he is normally full of energy. He was born in my house around the end of 08' or very early 09' if my dates are correct. He is by himself in a 5 1 /2 gallon with a heater set to 78F and a Hydro 1 Sponge filter. I have been expecting him to pass away of old age soon- anytime in the next 6 months. He used to have 3 other guppies in with him (which passed away of old age last year and at the beginning of this year). I have been hoping to get a new home for this fish despite his age. I am lacking time and need to focus on my other fish and having 1 fish in a 5 gallon and not being able to put him with other fish due to his species and water tolerances has become inconvenient.
Yesterday I noticed he was trying to hide, breathing more heavily than usual, had his fins clamped, and not coming out to eat. I am unsure if it is not the clamping making the rest of his body look thinner but his chest looks enlarged- aka larger than usual or swollen.
I looked and could not find anything wrong to cause those symptoms. I also tested the water yesterday and found that the conditions were ideal. (I did not do anything for the fish other than cease feeding because I figured this was one of those situations where the fish would pass peacefully overnight.)
Current water parameters: Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: very very small amount none or barely readable (under 3 ppm) Ph: 7.8 KH: 180 GH: (I forgot this number)
I have had guppies for years and have bred them and find that when they die of age related causes, it is normally overnight where they were healthy-seeming the morning before and quickly go downhill overnight and die. I figured the same would happwn with French Fry. However, this morning, I found that he was still alive and was acting the same as yesterday.
He seems to be in pain/distress. I looked at him again and found a deep looking sizable wound on the top of his chest (kind of hard to see). It does not appear to be infected. He may be eating slightly but am unsure.
I am unsure how if got the wound or if this is some kind of internal infection or an injury he got somehow. (He has never been sick before).
I am unsure what to do at this point. I could leave him and see if he makes it, euthanize him (due to the severity of his, suffering, and age), or try to medicate (of which I have a general idea about what he could have but no real conclusive idea). I also have no idea if the wound affected vital organs or how bad it is. I did overfeed him a couple days ago and skipped a feeding after but I doubt it has bad enough to cause him to "burst" so to speak or develop a wound like that.
Which of the three options do you think would be the best? I know this is a judgement call. As well, if anyone has any idea what this would coudl be, please let me know. I care very much for this fish and it was born in my house but at the same time need to focus on my ever growing and aging goldfish and my 4 tetras and other responsabilities.
Thanks.
Renee
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Post by sammiesam on Aug 4, 2011 15:37:52 GMT -5
If it were me - I would just try meth. baths and maybe some melafix or something very light just to prevent infection. But I am also the person who will not euthanize, did it once and it scarred me so never again. I would just try to make sure he is as comfortable as you can possibly make him so that he lives happy until he can.
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Post by Carl on Aug 4, 2011 18:14:07 GMT -5
If it were me - I would just try meth. Sam, have you not heard: "Don't Do Meth" LOL Now joking aside I 100% agree with Sam. I would add for a stronger treatment to swap the Melafix for Furan 2 (or even Furan 2 with Kanamycin/ KanaplexCarl
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 4, 2011 23:21:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers.
I was pleased and happy after posting this today to see that French Fry was not clamping as much and ate a rather large flake I put into the tank! (I still did not see if he spit it out or not however.) He is still very much under the weather but seems better.
I will try Furan 2 for him. I agree about not euthanizing at this point. I have done so before with fish and it is always very hard and left me very unhappy sometimes. In the past, I have only used it for already dying fish, or severely deformed fry (back when I bred fish).
I am going to treat him first thing in the morning with the Furan 2. I'll keep you posted on how he does.
Thanks again for the input.
Renee
Thanks for the help.
Renee
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Post by parker002 on Aug 5, 2011 9:10:03 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, you're not allowed to use meth blue, right? You could try hydrogen peroxide if it gets worse but it sounds like he's already getting better on his own.
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 5, 2011 11:53:50 GMT -5
I treated French Fry with Furan 2 in the morning.
When I saw him today, he seemed 80-90% better in terms of behavior! He was begging and acting hyper as he normally does. I treated anyway and hope it was still a good idea. His chest is still looking larger than usual despite his turn for the better, so maybe the Furan 2 will help with that.
He is currently eating everything I give him eagerly which is great! I am very impressed with how he is doing so far and hope he continues to improve!
I will be continuing to treat for the full length of time for Furan 2 (4 days) due to his chest and as a precaution unless anyone recommends otherwise.
Renee
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Post by sammiesam on Aug 5, 2011 12:48:22 GMT -5
I'm glad to hear he is doing better. Funny joke btw Carl it made me roll my eyes lol
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 5, 2011 13:02:13 GMT -5
Me too. That was a cool joke. This guy is already fairly close to 3. I wonder what the record for longest lived guppy is. UPDATE: I just looked it up. Couldn't find a world record lifespan but I heard they live 12 months (this was a very poor source) and a few that said 3-5 years! I still think 2-3 is the norm basically (which some sources said as well).
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Post by sammiesam on Aug 5, 2011 16:30:09 GMT -5
Yeah almost 3 years is a long time for a guppy which is very cool. My very first betta that I saved from a horrible store lived to be around 5 years old, he was an old man i was impressed lol
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Post by bikeguy33 on Aug 5, 2011 20:49:48 GMT -5
i actually agree with the melafix. it is natural and can remain in the water. make him comfy is important in an old fish...
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 5, 2011 22:09:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Bill. Unfortuantely I have already started the treatment with Furan 2 and I think changing now could be counter-productive.
However, for the future for an uninfected-seeming wound, I will definitely consider Melafix.
Sammiesam, congrats that your betta lived so long!
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 6, 2011 15:07:06 GMT -5
Unfortunately, today I noticed French Fry did not seem as enthusiastic about eating but DID eat. The wound on his chest seems to be healing well . It is no longer a medium-toneish dark red and is looking brownish more in color (meaning it is healing).
As for more bad news, his chest seems larger- an abnormal size at this point.
His older brother or uncle, Tiyler had an abnormally large chest area but it grew in size very slowly over his life (probably over a year or more before his death.) Tyler was unfortunately eaten by French Fry and another guppy (who died of old age a while ago) where only bones were left. I am not sure if this has any significance to the eating part as this happened about 8 months ago.
However, what I feel is more significant regarding French Fry it is has a family history of strange internal issues. Irene fish (a hardy female guppy from Petsmart) had two offspring- 1 of which had wounds and what looked like a swollen vent. As well, out of the other females from Petsmart (where I got a bunch of other females I bred), a couple showed similar problems. Therefore, whether it was Irene fish or the others that are French Fry's parents and were prone to this or carried it, I believe French Fry has a genetic disposition to infections that show as wounds. (I am not 100% if this is a wound from injury or a disease but the chest makes me think it is not just an injury.)
Renee
UPDATE: Today French Fry is acting better, like normal actually. His chest seems a little smaller, not much. The wound is also healing well. I have 2 more days left to treat with Furan 2. I'm not sure if its helping or not but the treatment should be over soon. If his chest is still big after this, I am not treating further unless I see more symptoms to indicate illness. This guy is old so I need to go easy on him. As long as the chest thing doesn't get worse and he is comfortable, I'm going to leave it be after the Furan 2.
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 8, 2011 14:17:57 GMT -5
Well, it appears French Fry is having ups and downs. Today he is clamping his fins heavily and seems like he is semi-hiding. His chest is unusually big and the wound somehow looks bigger like this is a progressing disease. Today is the last day I give him Furan 2. After that, treatment is over. It appears that if this is a disease (I think it is), it was probably not the right medication to treat with.
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Post by Carl on Aug 8, 2011 15:14:36 GMT -5
This can also mean the Furan 2 was simply not a strong enough anti-biotic by itself Often in treatment of Humans or animals am antibiotic may show initial signs of effectiveness, but is actually not strong enough and the the disease develops resistance (besides seeing this in fish many times, it also happened to me personally with a staph infection in 2004) Was the entire tank treated? If so, and since it appears the disease showed initial response to the treatment, I would stay a similar type of medication. This would be Kanamycin or Kanamycin combined with Furan 2. Adding ParaGuard to this would make a VERY strong medication (similar to a product called ParaGuard 2 that was an excellent strong treatment that sadly went off the market with the demise of AquaTronics) It is also noteworthy that this long lived guppy is simply beyond any treatment and in fact this would be my first guess Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 8, 2011 17:06:18 GMT -5
This fish has never been treated with Furan 2 before so I doubt the disease would have built up resistance (at least with this fish). The medication is also not expired that I know of. Yes, the entire 5 gallon he is in was treated. The PH of the water in his tank was 7.8 last time I checked (the day before medicating started). I read that Furan 2 is less effective at a higher PH if I read correctly so this may have a little to do with it perhaps. I have Kanamycin and also Paraguard (not Paraguard 2). I am unsure of what to do exactly. This fish old and know treating him will cause stress, but may on the other hand cure him. Still, the odds of survival are not all that good. As well, it is hard to see protruding scales on such a small fish but the increase in chest size may be dropsy. I think I may have seen some protruding scales but it could be from the enlarged chest size in general. As well, the swelling is not "all around the fish". French Fry looks normal from a top view but from the side, I can see his chest is bloated out downwardly if that makes sense. On the topic of effectiveness and Furan 2, my fish Rena (a young female guppy who had similar symptom aka wounds) symptoms only she had a protruding vent which was different and is very likely to be related to French Fry by blood in some way. I tried Furan 2 with her and saw little results. She got better only to get worse again and am unsure if the Furan 2 helped her or she did some of it on my own. In other words, this may be the wrong medication for whatever this fish has provided these two have similar or the same disease. I have been stressed lately with all the stuff with my fish and school and focusing on my goldfish (which are aging and getting dirtier as they grow). I have been expecting this guppy to die of old age before winter. My mother has said if the fish is still around, me and her will have a talk about it. (She doesn't consider a heater in a 5 gallon for a tiny fish worth the electricity though the heater only uses 25- 50W maybe.) That said, I do NOT want this fish to die and want to save him if I can. After I do a final water change after the treatment is finished with Furan 2. I will use the Kamacyin treatment then after I weigh my options for likelihood of survival, stress on the fish and me, his age, etc. If I end up not treating, I will see if he an pull through on his own. ...And if he goes to the point of no return with or without treatment (aka loss of coordination, flowing in current less than a day from death), I will have to euthanize him. He seems pretty far from the point of no return now (though his prognosis doesn't look good). This is not an easy thing. this fish was born in my house and spent his whole life here after being the sole survivor of a batch of fry the females didn't eat. Renee
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Post by Carl on Aug 8, 2011 19:11:50 GMT -5
I think you missed my point as to disease resistance.
A bacterium can build resistance the first time if the antibiotic/antimicrobial if simply not strong enough for the disease, and your comment as to the other time used adds to this point (this was the point I making for my "human" treatment as well as I too had never been treated with the antibiotic, yet this was a gram positive antibiotic in my case for a gram positive infection, just not the correct one)
To expand on my point since you observed a slight , albeit temporary improvement to move a another gram negative treatment since Furan is Gram negative. If absolutely no response was seen I would consider Tetracycline instead (gram positive)
I hope this is easier to understand.
Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 8, 2011 20:41:14 GMT -5
Oops. I misunderstood you then. I did not know this about antibiotics. I had thought this only happened with repeated uses and didn't know they could build one resistance so fast if a medication that is not strong enough is given. I stand corrected. Would it be better to use Erythromycin rather than Tetacycline? I read in your article Tetracycline can cause anemia (and other side effects) and that you didn't recommend it for injured fish with wounds. From what I read, Erythromycin is for gram-negative bacteria and more effective at a higher PH, GH, and KH (unlike Tetracycline). I also have Erythromcyin and not Tetracycline in my house. I would imagine Erythromycin is better in this case but would liek to hear your opinion. Renee
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Post by Carl on Aug 9, 2011 9:26:08 GMT -5
Erythromycin is actually gram positive. I have generally not had good results with Erythromycin for sores/wounds. Your points about Tetracycline are excellent, my only reason for noting Tetracycline is I have had some success with wounds or as a medication of last resort. That said, as per my earlier comments I think Kanaplex, or a Kanaplex combination with ParaGuard end may Furan 2 as well is the way to go. My point in mentioning Tetracycline is if the infection showed no response to gram negative treatments, but to this point in time I do not see this. Also (& I know how much you care for your guppy), there is a strong chance there is no medication that his infection will respond too based on his age. Carl
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Post by Carl on Aug 9, 2011 15:56:45 GMT -5
Renee, I was thinking about this problem and realized I left off an antibiotic that is often effective for this exact problem, often when others fail; Triple SulfaWhile generally not a first choice, this is an old gram negative standby that has saved many a fish with infections, especially with wounds or ulcerations when my primary choice failed (it can also be combined with ParaGuard and in fact if you choose this medication, I would recommend such a combination Carl
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Post by goldenpuon on Aug 9, 2011 18:18:08 GMT -5
Oops again, lol I had meant to say gram-positive. Typo there. I HAD read Eythromycin was for gram-positive bacteria, but accidently said it was gram-negative as a typo. The reason why I mentioned Erythrommcycin is because it is gram-positive and and Furan 2 (nitrofurazone) is primarily for gram-negative bacteria. That said, I thought that because I was targeting the disease this fish has with a gram negative medication that was not doing much/anything to help, that what has infected the fish may be be gram positive and therefore I may need a medication that targets gram-positive bacteria to cure the fish (aka something like Erythromcycin). I do have Triple Sulfa in my house. 1. One concern is though it seems to be effective for a broader range of bacteria, it still mainly focuses on gram negative bacteria. As well, in your article, you recommended treated for a minimum of 10 days with 25% water changes after each dose. 2. As well taking taking much time, I am concerned that that many water changes may negatively affect my by changing water chemistry and affecting my fish. For example, my tap water is soft with a low PH and my fish's water is quite hard (thanks to buffers added). I am concerned that doing this may cause stress for the fish with continuously adding softer water and raising it. 3. Lastly, I believe that treating with Triple Sulfa and a Paraguard combo would be very potent/strong if I am correct. I am nervous about stressing this fish and possibly causing more stress with this combo. I had read some otehr Triple Sulfa combos with otehr meds could be very strong. Is this the case for a Paraguard and Triple Sulfa combo as I suspect> As well, I read that Triple Sufla works best in harder water. Are these concerns valid and is there any way around them? UPDATE on guppy. I am feeling a bit confused about his behavior. He goes from clamping his fins in the corner to begging for food like crazy during feeding time. My guess as to why he keeps on seeming to go up and down in terms on behavior may not actually mean he is actually getting worse or better. In my experience, guppies are very tempermental and kind of extreme in terms of mood swings. All this life (along with other guppies I have had), if I so much as "looked" at the fish the wrong way or observed him at a time it was not feeding time, he would automatically act afraid. But at feeding time or if I was careful when looking him him, he may be out or begging hyperactively. So perhaps the large changes in behavior can be partially atrributed to this. The fish clamping and a couple other behavioral symptoms besides the wound and large chest size ARE signs however this fish is sick/not doing well. Thanks. Your help and input is much appreciated.
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