Cloudy Eye and Other Issues

[goldenpuon]

I treated my 40 gallon fish tank on Sunday (6 days ago) because Foneme, 1 of my 8 goldfish in the tank, seemed to have a tiny tiny bit of white showing up beside the gill split on one side.

It was hard to see and I'm not 100% sure I needed to treat but put in a wondershell anyway. NOTE: Foneme seems to have some kind of head injury it sustained a several months ago where it lost some of the skin on the top of its head. It's mouth also got noticably lopsided after that. Ever since, the area around its head has been a little white (possibly a mild opportunistic infection the fish's immune system is keeping under control for several months). But when I saw the white around the gills (though very little), I treated with a large medicated wondershell out of concern that it was a possible pathogen or the white on its head was a disease and spreading.

Anyway, the barely notciable bit of white around one of Foneme's gills is gone (though a little remains on its head).

As well, the power went out for 4 hours yesterday and I blow a lot of air into the tank through bubbler tubing (which I foolishy didn't realize raised carbon dioxide levels, not oxygen levels). (The medicated wondershell was in there at that time too.)

Prior histroy finished, today I noticed my fish Hansel (a small white goldfish) has a cloudy eye. Its other eye is fine and looks totally healthy. The affected eye looks like it has a white dot around the middle and is noticably cloudy compared to the other eye. the eye is not budging at all either.

Hansel is acting very active and is begging for food as usual. The fish has a smaller-looking mouth than most fish due to the skin around its mouth covering over a little of its mouth. (It has had this for years and it is not all that noticable unless the fish is close-up and begging for food).Any idea about what to do? (Again, the wondershell is ALREADY in the water as far as meds.)


Also, for a while now, I have seen that my hyper goldfish Wickren has a orangish red area on the top section of one side of its gill plate where the gill plate ends and reaches the top of the head. I am unsure if this is just some very bright orange coloring but it is not on the other side of the gills. It has been there (possibly varying in color a bit but I'm not sure for a few months now. Still, the fish is very fat and super hyper. I think it may be an injury, coloration, or irritation (perhaps from Salyme that likes to nip at other fish's heads right before feeding time.) Should I take action or just leave this guy alone and see how it goes?

Last, I noticed that Alden had some stringy white waste several days ago. I saw another piece but an unsure if it was the same piece or from the same fish. With Alden, I also saw red on the top of one of its gill splits like Wickren but this could be coloration. Alden is a good weight, active, and has no history I know of regarding internal parasites. HOWEVER, it does have a very sensitive tail fin that gets red streaks on it on and off(This has been going on for 3 years with no harm to the fish so I don't treat it.) It also has a abdomnal deformity where the area is pressed in farther than in typical goldfish. But again, this fish has had this for 3-4 years that I have seen since it started to grow big. Is there anything i should do with Alden concerning the white waste or see how it goes? The fish does not seem skinny or unhealthy.

Also, I can get pictures of Foneme, Alden, and Hansel, and Alden.

I might have a little bit of trouble getting some things to show up in pictures but I'll do my best. I will also get a video to demonstrate how the fish are doing in the tank (very active at the moment).

Many of these things might be non-issues. What I am most concerned about is Hansel, which prompted me to write this.

Input is appreciated. Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

I am not sure after reading this twice that there is any issues of major concern, since most of these issues have been ongoing and your have given very good care of your fish

I might suggest a UV Sterilizer which can further improve Redox (& thus immunity), but at this point in time, it still may not make a big difference.

That said, other than what you are already doing and have done for your fish is what I would continue with (unless I missed something)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

EDIT: I revised this post a little.

I'd better clarify with this. Sorry for the long-winded message that possibly caused you to miss a thing or two.

I have two major concerns: with Alden and Hansel. The rest are minor or ones I just mentioned to familiarize you with each fish in case any of these things were related.

1. With the cloudy eye Hansel has (this IS new), I am concerned. the eye is darker than the other by a bit (probably due to teh cloudiness and I cannot see the pupil well.) The cloudiness is pretty bad as well in that eye. I don't plan to treat right away since this evening is the first time I saw it but in the next couple days if it gets worse. I am thinking of Strepococous or Vibro as a possible cause of it but the fish's eye is not buldging and its eye problem only symptom. For that I know Erthytromycin or Furan 2 might work. But I'm unsure what it is 100%. I looked at the Strepococcus article. I am going to post a couple pictures of the fish tomorrow to see if this can be identified as my guesses or something else.

Btw, I found it quite alarming (according to the article) that morality rates can be so high!! Of course, this may only be in the scientific findings in the article and not for moderate infections...

2. As well, with the white feces, this IS new with Alden. I have not seen white feces with this fish before This is going on with Alden (other fish have nibbled at the white waste so they could get it transmitted if the fish is sick). As I said before, the fish is in good condition and does not seem sick meaning probably a mild infestation at this point (if any). What could the white stringy feces be a sign of besides internal parasites? And if it is possibly internal parasites, would you say I should not treat and let the fish be since it seems so mild or take action?

As with Hansel, I am waiting a few days to make sure this keeps up before doing anything with Alden in case this is something that might go away on its own. Note: I found another bit of stringy waste in the tank tonight, but am unsure which fish it came from- probably not a good sign (this is the 3rd one in a week's time).

As I mentioned before, I will get pictures of both Alden and Hansel soon.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

Hansel's eye seems to have cleared up a little this morning. i'm keeping an 'eye' on the fish still so to speak. So far, so good. I'll post pics if I don't continue to see imrpovement. Otherwise, I'll get the fish figth off whatever was infecting its eye.

Fish definitely seem to pay their owners back well with good resistance and lifespan if the owners work hard to give them great care.

[Carl]

White stringy feces are as much a symptom of Aeromonus as with parasites, which is why it is not s definite symptom of either. Furthermore, often it can even mean nothing other than maybe the lack of certain probiotics inside the intestines (often diet corrects this or it passed on their own), As for probiotics, medications can actually make this worse, so unless other symptoms appear or the white stringy feces continue I would hod back on treatments other than a bath.

As for the eye issues, this certainly can be Streptococcus which can be very serious if it goes systemic.
Potassium Permanganate directly on the eye is VERY effective from my experience, especially if it is Streptococcus.
Otherwise the use of a hospital tank and Erythromycin is best (assuming Streptococcus, which the eye problem could simply be deteriorating health)

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl for the help and advice. It is very much appreciated. I'll hold back regarding Alden.

Thanks for the further info on Strepoccoc regarding Hansel. Righjt now, it seems the same as yesterday. I also finally got some pictures I am posting now so you can better see what is going on.

The tank water is green from the wondershell and my T-2 light was on so the image quality might not be the best. As well, I changed the lighting and contrast in the photos to make the fish show up better but possibly leading to odd coloring.

Hansel's healthy eye



Hansel and Alden


Another pic of Hansel with the bad eye


Hansel again...


Close-up of Hansel's eye

[goldenpuon]

Hansel seems no worse nor better today as far as its eye is. Based on the pictures in my last post, what does it look like that is affecting the eye?

Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

Renee, although I am not sure from the picture, his eye does not look to have typical "Cloudy Eye", rather his eye appears to have changed internally, likely as a result of vision loss (along with changes to the eye's structure).
This can be disease related, but more often than not it is age or heredity.
Ichthyophonus can also cause vision loss but there are no other symptoms such as whirling

My advice is to continue watching him and providing the best care you can. Watch for any more specific symptoms as I will admit from experience that the "eyes are often windows to the fish' health", but this too can also be age or heredity as I noted earlier.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I will keep an eye on the fish. It does not appear to be getting worse.

""eyes are often windows to the fish' health"". They may be, but Oranda, my blind alien goldfish is a 'partial' exception to this rule.

How I would describe it is a white dot around the pupil and the rest of the eye looking a bit cloudy. As well, the area surrounding the fish's pupil (still part of the eye) which is normally white, is orangeish. Not reddish per say but kind of orange.

Maybe this was some kind of injury? Especially if the orange could be the dull tint of blood. On the other hand, if this is not an infectious disease, I may end up with another alien goldfish like Oranda. Joy... Oranda's eyes looked like this this or similar when its problem first started.

I have had Hansel 4 or 4 1/2 years. I got it along with Kona who has no health problems or deformities. I do not believe this fish is unhealthy and is actually one of the goldfish I have had the least long. If it is anything health related, I'd say heredity.

I'll keep an eye on this fish. I just finished treating with the medicated wondershell (which may have kept the disease in check IF the fish does have a contageous disease.) So far the fish has an excellent appetite and is acting as nothing is wrong. Nor whirling and teh fish appears to be able to see as well (at least out of its healthy eye). The one that has has issues I cannot tell. I looked at the article and the fish has none of the symptoms associated with the disease.

Thanks again for the help. I'll keep you posted.

UPDATE: I looked again and you are right that it seems to be within the eye. *gets ready for another alien goldfish*

[goldenpuon]

The white feces are continuing and I saw one of my healthiest fish produce them, Wickren, which is fat and super active though it was not as long/stringy and white as Alden's.

White stringy feces are as much a symptom of Aeromonus as with parasites, which is why it is not s definite symptom of either. Furthermore, often it can even mean nothing other than maybe the lack of certain probiotics inside the intestines (often diet corrects this or it passed on their own), As for probiotics, medications can actually make this worse, so unless other symptoms appear or the white stringy feces continue I would hod back on treatments other than a bath.

I know Alden has had red streaks on and off on its fins for years with little problem. I don't believe it has them at the moment but that combined with the recent white feces concerns me a bit since you said white feces can be a sign of Aeromonus (which is often connected with septicaemia).

I have also seen the other goldfish nibble at the white feces when searching for food before spitting them out.

I am hesitant to treat because I just did with a medicated wondershell and know very well (especially from my first couple years fishkeeping) that treating too often can lead to more problems such as unstable water conditions (ex. killing off of nitrifying bacteria) and the fish weakening.

I am guessing the white feces are separate from the red streaks on fins of Alden since Alden has had this on and of for years (less recently actually). I have had white feces before with my goldfish.

I have had white feces with my goldfish in the past. They seemed to go away /not show up often, and be in smaller amounts at a given time. And of course, sometimes I didn't see any at all for a long time.

I'm unsure what to do regarding this. Do you think the red streaks on the fins (aka that have been happening for years) are separate from the white feces? The white feces first appeared enough for a cause of concern a little under 2 weeks ago from Alden (and possibly other fish).

I should also note Alden has an abdominal deformity where the fish's abdominal region which is kind of part to explain in terms of appearance. Carl said once in the past may affect the fish's intestines. I am unsure if this would affect anything as far as internal parasites or odd feces.

Here is a very recent picture of Alden (from last week) to see the deformity if you would like.

<a href="http://s457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/?action=view&current=hansel_diseased_eye.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq297/goldenpuon/hansel_diseased_eye.jpg" border="0" alt="7/31/11"></a>

All this info said, would you recommend I wait longer to see what happens pr start thinking about treating?

Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

Generally eating of feces is how parasites are spread, but no so much as Aeromonas, so this is my bigger concern, especially considering the deformity.

Medicated Wonder Shells do little for Aeromonas and are only a minor treatment for parasites (much more for Velvet, Fungus (Saprolegnia) and mild Ich infestations).

I would consider baths with metronidazole (if you could get your mom to reconsider, the use of Methylene Blue is often very helpful since it absorbs well)
For a strong in tank treatment, maybe you should consider Clout

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I read about the clout and it normally treats things like anchor worms and similar external parasites (worm-like mostly) from what I can see. (I looked up the parasites it is said to treat.) The Clout is for anchor worms. Am I correct in this?

Also, with the supposed anchor worm that attacked Alden, it was on the top of the head. For some reason, whenever a goldfish get this (aka about once a year), it is always on the top of the head! From what I know, anchor worms seem to attack any part of the fish, not just the top of the head.

Is there any significance to this as in maybe this is another type of parasite, or could it be another species of anchor worm perhaps that just seems to like a specific location on the fish's head opposed to other areas?

NOTE: I recall saying the anchor worm on Alden had been about or under 5mm. I am not super good with cm and mm but I think it may have been more like 2/5 or 1/3 of a cmm. It was very small.

"Generally eating of feces is how parasites are spread, but no so much as Aeromonas, so this is my bigger concern, especially considering the deformity."

Sorry, but could you clarify. Are you saying the likely internal parasites are a concern more to you or Aeromonas?


Would Jungle Ant-parasite food be a good choice for treatment? I have used it in the past but never for stringy feces, only my goldfish Foneme's low weight (which it is pretty low but stable at the moment) and Puon's bloating in the past which were unsuccessful likely because parasites were not the cause.

Also, what exactly should I be targeting as far as issues in this 40 gallon tank?

Hansel has a problem with 1 eye that looks like it has a cataract, Alden the streaks that show up sometimes (likely aeromonas), stringy feces, and the sighting of 1 anchor worm.

Also, though you may disagree, the appearance of the simple anchor worm is not something I am hugely concerned about due to the low incidence of infection/attack on my fish despite them being known as very contagious.

Last, could the any of these be from a poor diet? I am almost out of a large container of Spirulina 20 and Aqeon Goldfish Pellets. I have been hoping to use both up but both were opened 6+ months ago and are stale by now I'm sure. I am going to try to feed a new bottle of Aqueon Goldfish Pellets I have in case this is a contributing factor.

Thanks again for the help.

P.S. None of these problems seem super bad to me due to how well/healthy the fish are acting although these are definitely not good ( I'm most concerned about the white waste of all of these issues).

Renee

[Carl]

*Clout if primarily for external worms such as Anchor worms, but I have also had effectiveness with internal worms too (the ingredients in part bear this out)

*What I meant as per Aeromonas is that I doubt that Aeromonas is the problem, so this is not my concern.
As well I do not see strong evidence of a serious parasite infection either, but I threw out (as for a strong/serious treatment with Clout)

*As for what you should be personally concerned about, I think my last comment answers this too, but is really your choice how far you want to take treatment (or can take treatment since MB would be part of my treatment choice and you cannot use it).

*Personally I seriously doubt diet is an issue, as this is a major aspect of your care as to why your goldfish are still alive to this day in the first place (IMO)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl for your input and answering my questions. It is very helpful. I thjink I am overworrying about my fish a bit.

I am still unable to use MB unfortunately. I was actually pretty lucky I was able to put in a medicated wondershell without a fuss from my mom since it contains MB (though VERY little) and other things that turn the water greenish or even blue when used. She is sort of paranoid after the stains she saw on the carpet when I used it.

I saw my 8 goldfish going nuts ths morning begging me (faster and with more vigor than usual) and decided against any treatment at least for now. It would do much more harm than good IMO and to little for teh fish since the infestations seem very mild.

I was also very pleased to see 0 stringy feces in the tank nor any fish making them.

I do however have two questions from my last post.

1. In the event that the stringy waste shows up at a higher rate, would Jungle Parasite Clear Medicated food be a good choice as per effectiveness and not being as invasive as other treats (ex. stronger meds like Clout)?

2. Is there any significance to that the anchor worms only seem to show up on a very select region of the head of my fish when they appear about once a year? Like perhaps being a different species of anchor worm or parasite?

Thanks again for the help. Apologies for all the questions and if I am taking too much time with this. That said, your help is HUGELY appreciated! I do not think as many of my goldfish would be alive now if I hadn't joined EA and gotten correct info regarding my fish as per care and more.

Renee

EDIT: Carl, it has come to my attention that you do not have any time to speak of right now. Please feel free to answer these questions at a later date or not at all if needed and let others answer if they wish. The same goes for the posts with my guppy. Neither are emergencies either as far as responding to please take your time.

[Carl]

Aug 6, 2011 14:57:21 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

1. In the event that the stringy waste shows up at a higher rate, would Jungle Parasite Clear Medicated food be a good choice as per effectiveness and not being as invasive as other treats (ex. stronger meds like Clout)?

Yes, I should have noted this before, but my one problem with the Jungle Medicated Food is that fish often do not eat it or eat it poorly, with the result being little or no effectiveness.
Should this be the case, Clout would be the next step.

2. Is there any significance to that the anchor worms only seem to show up on a very select region of the head of my fish when they appear about once a year? Like perhaps being a different species of anchor worm or parasite?

The Anchor Worms from my experience simply attach themselves in the most opportunistic part of the fish, which seems to vary from fish to fish.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I see. My goldfish go nuts over Jungle Medicated Food (though bigger and often healthier fish seem to get more than shyier or smaller I am trying to treat.) They don't like it "quite" as much as the regular food but aren't picky and in the past have gobbled it up anyway. I would definitely expect much bigger differences in fish with parasites that are not eating well or are a more finicky species.

The Anchor Worms from my experience simply attach themselves in the most opportunistic part of the fish, which seems to vary from fish to fish.

Hmm. Then either my fish are somehow more open to infection on the tops of their heads for anchor worms (with other disease, this is not the case) or this area of the fish is a delicacy for anchor worms, hence them only stopping to "anchor" on their heads to eat.

Once again, thanks for the help!

Renee

[goldenpuon]

As an update on the fish, there are no more signs of anchor worm I have seen (I have not been looking super closely lately but I would know if it was a problem by now). As well, Hansel's eye does not appear to be getting worse.

Renee