Tank Frustrations

[goldenpuon]

I have 4 tanks set up now- two with goldfish that are fully stocked and two that are at less than 1/2 capacity in terms of the kinds of fish I have in them.

One is a 10 gallon with 4 black phantom tetras- 1 male, 3 females. The other tank is a 5 gallon is with a single male guppy that is between 1 1/2 and 2 years old (he was born in my house.)

I would love to put the black phantom tetras together with the guppy but the tetras are very nippy (especially the male) and I don't want to stress the guppy. As well, guppies prefer hard water and a good deal of salt while the tetras are the opposite.


That said, I am trying to think of a better arrangement for my guppy. A single fish under an inch long in a 5 1/2 gallon is a bit too sparce for me as far as stocking. (Though I would much rather under than overstock.)

The same could be said for the four tetras. Their max size is under an inch and a half. The only reason they can't be put in a slightly smaller tank is because of the male who is territorial and very nippy, thus requiring the fish need more space and a lot of hiding places.

I am not interested in getting more of/ continuing to keep guppies or black phantom tetras after these guys are gone.


I am considering getting freshwater angelfish or clownfish in the future.

The problem here is I cannot go over 10 gallons.

Can a clownfish live comfortably/happily in an aquarium without live rock or sand? If I added live rock, (1-2 pounds per gallon), the 10 gallon would be way too cramped for even the smaller species of clownfish. As well, I want to keep a barebottom aquarium which may not be feasible with this type of fish.

As for the angelfish, these grow 6+ inches in height and 6 in length. Due to my size restrictions, a 10 gallon is out of the question for anything but a very young/small angel.

I researched angelfish and the only species that is small enough for a 10 gallon is Pterophyllum leopoldi- max about 3 inches. However, I have heard these are very rare and also much more sensitive to water conditions than the freshwater angelfish species regularly sold in pet stores, P. scalare.


Are there any mini angelfish varieties of the P. scalare species?

Note: I want to provide the best care I can for any fish I get and not crowd them. I am also only in the beginning stages of thinking of what type of fish to get and know I may have to get a different species of fish than these.

Thanks.

[Carl]

First, as for the Clown Fish, I personally consider at least some live rock a must not only for a natural environment, but more importantly for bio filtration (especially nitrate control)

While I have kept Clownfish for years in tanks without live rock, they have not thrived as well in those tanks as when I started using live rock in all marine aquariums (even fish only aka FOWLR tanks)

For Angelfish (freshwater), I have kept them in 10 gallon tanks, but often with no more than two once they reach full size, although filtration and water chemistry (including redox) affects fish limits too (see Aquarium Size, fish stunting)

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the fast reply. This info is very helpful.

I have decided against the clownfish due to needing live rock (not to mention, I would want them to be happy/have a very natural environment.)

As for angelfish, are you sure two could fit comfortably in a 10 gallon long-term as in over a near normal 10 year lifespan without problems? (NOTE: No other fish at all would be in with the angels because I want them to be happy and not poor-off/stunted.)

I might purchase angelfish that are missing their pelvic fin (a common deformity I am told which otherwise healthy angels are culled) to allow more space fin-size so there is less chance of fins dragging on the bottom. (This would also help with keeping the fish's fins from getting infections if they ended up close to the bottom due to their height.)

I am considering the inch to inch and a half species rasboras or danios as potential candidates for putting in with my 4 black phantom tetras. (This is if angelfish will not work out in a 10 gallon WITHOUT any other fish.)

Renee

[Carl]

As for angelfish, are you sure two could fit comfortably in a 10 gallon long-term as in over a near normal 10 year lifespan without problems? (NOTE: No other fish at all would be in with the angels because I want them to be happy and not poor-off/stunted.)

Yes, I have had angels breed in 10 gallon aquariums.

Obviously fin lengths may need to be considered (which based on your last post you already thought of this)

As per the Aquarium Answers fish stunting article, it is not just tank size that needs to be considered, but water parameters; so if you can maintain good water parameters this should not be a problem.
Most these tanks I have kept had more than one filter (usually one of these was a sponge filter), including a means to control nitrates and more than 50% had a UV Sterilizer too

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I am glad to hear this and it is also good news.

It seems like all the sources I read exaggerate tank sizes needed for fish. Like many sites saying neon tetras need 20 gallons minimum for a 6+ member school. (This is a good recommendation for extra space but a group of 9 neons can easily live in a 10 gallon for instance provided the tank doesn't have any other fish that take up much space/produce much waste.)

I see. For the purpose of water quality, I will use a HOB and Hydro sponge 1 filter to make sure conditions stay ideal.

Thanks for the input Carl. It has been very helpful.

[goldenpuon]

I have been looking into leopard danios and harlequin rasboras further. (If I got these, I would not have to wait until the tetras died off from old age to get more fish vs. with an angel I would).

I remember when I first got my black phantom tetras, I mixed them with serpae tetras and the serpaes were very aggressive toward them (though my black phantoms can also be quite nippy.)

I read that harlequin rasboras and leopard danios can be nippy in particular cases.

Would either of these species be a good idea to put in with black phantom tetras with the potential to be nippy in some cases? The tank is heavily planted (plastic plants) but with more than one or two nippy fish, this is still not enough for the less aggressive tank members to avoid being stressed/nipped.

I was thinking if I got leopard danios, they might swim so fast that the black phantoms (particularly the aggressive male) would be too overwhelmed by all the motion to nip at the danios and probably focus less on the females too. However, it would be awful if they ganged up on the slower moving black phantoms.)

As for the harlequin rasboras, (which are active but don't move at super speed like the danios), I am concerned if I put them in they may either gang up on some of the tetras or the male black phantom will get very territorial toward them because of their bright colors.

Are my concerns relevant/something to be concerned about? I do not want to cause any excess stress for my fish.

Thanks.

Renee

[parker002]

We have various long-finned danios in both of our tanks and they have no issues. The most aggressive of the white skirt tetras doesn't bother them at all.

[goldenpuon]

Thank you for the input Parker.

What size is the tank they are in? I hear the larger the tank, the less nippy they are. Mine will be in a 10 gallon.

[babygeige]

My concern with the leopard danios in a 10 gallon is that may not be quite enough swimming space for them. They are zippy fish that need a lot of room to swim around.

Are Celestial Pearl Danios available near you? They'd be great in a 10 gallon. Their max size is just under an inch. They are usually very tiny at the lfs, so depending on how big your tetras are, that could be an issue.

Cherry Barbs and White Clouds would also be good candidates.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks so much for the input Babygeige!

I agree with you on the leopard danios. I went to Petsmart yesterday to observe their small community fish. I observed some zebra danios (which are very very similar to leopard danios I heard) and saw how fast they were and some mild chasing. And with the slower moving black phantoms, there could be some unwanted fighting and/or stress.

Unfortunately, I don't think I can keep any Celestrial Pearl Danios due to how expensive they are. However, if you have any celestrial pearl danios that any that produce fry that you don't have room for, I would be happy to take some of them.

Do you think harlequin rasboras would do well with my 4 black phantoms? I saw them at the store and they seemed pretty shy and unaggressive. The rasboras max size is 2 inches though they can be a bit smaller. If I got them, I would get no more than 4-5.

As for aggression in my tank, the fish normally keep to themselves unless another accidently goes too close or during feeding time when everyone gets 'excited'.

That is not to say there is no aggression. The females sometimes flare their fins and fight mildly. The male also likes to fin nip when other fish come into his territory. They are all a bit over an inch including fins. They are about 1.25 inches on average. (Their max size is 1.5-2 inches roughly) Anything over 1.75 is fairly rare.)

I also have a lone 1 inch male guppy that is between 1 1/2 and 2 years old born at my house. He is alone in a 5 1/2 gallon with a sponge filter. He may live another year or die sooner. I am hoping to find him a tank mate if the black phantom are too aggressive for me to put rasboras or other fish with. The only problem is he has been raised in water with a higher PH, KH, and GH and salt content which harlequin rasboras don't like. (The GH and KH may be fine since they are very adaptable/many are raised in these conditions but probably not the salt content.)

Thanks.

[parker002]

The zebra and leopard danios appear to me to be almost identical except for their markings - we have some of each. We have them in the 55G and my daughter has some small ones along with white clouds in her 14G.

Even if your phantom tetras aren't normally agressive, they're probably going to eat small fish like the CPD. We had 1 serpae tetra that did quite well in the community tank and never was nippy with the other fish. But he ate molly fry just as fast as they could be born...

[goldenpuon]

The zebra and leopard danios appear to me to be almost identical except for their markings - we have some of each.

These in fact may be the same species according to my research- leopards seem to just be another genetic varient according to my research on zebra danios and leopard.

When you say, 'eat CPD', do you mean fin nip or swallow whole? The black phantom tetras are very small themselves- 1.25 inches about including fins. (Their max size is not that much larger). They would not be able to successfully consume any fish larger than a guppy fry a week old or less although they might try to eat a fish slightly larger unsuccessfully.

I would not put the CPD in with the black phantoms (if I got any) until they were big enough to safely be in with the black phantoms.

I am still leaning more heavily toward harlequin rasboras as of now due to the price of CPD.

EDIT: I just did some research on CPD and I do not feel comfortable putting them in with the black phantoms. I looked at videos of them and saw how small they were as adults.

And due to their very small size where they could easily be fin nipped or injured. I refuse to risk their lives for this reason and that they are an endangered species (which I knew before putting up my last few posts in my fish research.)

The only way they would work is if I put my lone male guppy in another tank and gave CPD's the 5 1/2 gallon he is in.

For these reasons and others I mentioned, I think I will need to get another small species of fish (but a bit bigger than the CPD).

Thanks for all the help and advice by the way everyone. It is greatly appreciated.

[parker002]

They're obviously not able to swallow whole but I don't mean "nip". We have Indian Glass Fish that are about the size of a dime. The largest white skirt, about 1.5 inches long, did enough damage to a glass fish's tail in one bite to kill it.

[babygeige]

Yeah, maybe CPD's aren't the best choice for you. I forgot about the tetras, sorry!
I only have 1 CPD right now, but I definitely plan on getting more sometime.

What about cherry barbs? They're pretty inexpensive, peaceful, and should be big enough to be safe from the tetras.

I don't know much about harlequin rasboras. I actually just bought some last weekend. I have 3 in my 5 gal QT with a honey gourami that I also bought that day. They are all getting along just fine so far. The rasboras stick pretty close together. They chase each other around a bit, but they leave the gourami alone.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks for the help you two. You are right Parker. A fish that small could easily get hurt- even with a small nip.

Babygeige: No worries. I probably would have recommended the something similar if someone wanted a small fish.

Thanks for the suggestion Babygeige! I did a quick search on Cherry barbs and already love these fish.

I have a few questions however.

1. Do Cherry barbs prefer acidic, alkaline water, or both? Most sources I have read say that they like a PH from 6.0-8.0 (this is a great variation in KH and GH as well.) I want to be sure in case I could put some in with my guppy vs. the black phantoms which I prefer.

2. I heard that they can sometimes get somewhat aggressive when spawning or when more than one is in the tank. Would a male Cherry barb likely try to stake out his own part of the tank against my black phantom tetras? That would cause a problem. In that case, if I put them in with the tetras, I would have to get all females.

Also, if you are able/have the time Babygiege, please keep me updated on how your harlequin rasboras do. From what I have researched and observed in videos and at the pet store is that they are fairly peaceful and school pretty tightly.

At this point, I may go with cherry barbs or harlequin rasboras.

Thanks again for your help everyone!

[parker002]

As long as you properly acclimate them, I don't see any reason why pH should be a big issue one way or another. Stable pH is far more important in my experience than it being in the "ideal range" for a certain type of fish.

[goldenpuon]

That is very true Parker.

I guess what I am getting at is I want to make sure they have the proper mineralization, (aka KH and GH) for their species. These control PH somewhat which is not all that important. (However, most sites just list PH ranges for fish and not KH and GH). Therefore, I don't really have that many sources to use as a guideline for proper GH and KH for cherry barbs. And since I keep my lone guppy in a tank with high mineral content and hardness, etc., I want to be sure the cherry barbs would be ok with the water conditions if I were top put them in with him.

The same goes for if I put them in with my tetras which I try to at a lower mineralization, (KH, GH).

Renee