new tank...

[babygeige]

Can you believe that the guy that I got the angel, pleco, and cory from has just NOW drained that tank? It's been empty since Dec. 31! I can't imagine how gross that smelled when he took the lid off.

Anyway, I guess while he was draining it he decided that he really didn't want it after all because he asked my dad if I wanted the whole setup. I haven't decided yet. Part of me really wants it, but the other part isn't sure if I want to clean another tank, especially such a big one.

I could decorate it with fake plants and lightly stock it so it wouldn't be the end of the fish if I didn't clean every week. ..

We'd have to figure out where to put it. And the stand would either need refinished and modified to be a little shorter or I'd have to get a whole new one. It's an oak color and most of our furniture is cherry, so that wouldn't look too good. Even with a step stool I can't reach the whole way into the tank.

Oh, decisions, decisions...

[Carl]

I can certainly understand the time issue of another tank to care for, even with a free tank has its negative sides.

I myself prefer Cherry wood color, if you have the time to re-stain, this would be what I would do

As for reaching to the bottom, maybe purchasing a medieval stretching rack would help (LOL)

Carl

[babygeige]

Well, we decided to take the tank after all. My dad said that he will work on the stand to make it shorter. In exchange, whenever I move out he wants to keep it here for him and my mom.

I'm sure we'll refinish it as well to a more appropriate color. It really should be refinished anyway; it's rather nicked up.

It will be a while before it's ready to go. In the meantime, I've got lots of research to do regarding what to stock it with. I will definitely be putting that pleco back in there, other than that, it's a pretty blank slate.

[Carl]

I was hoping you take this tank, as I think in the long run even with the extra work you would enjoy this additional aquarium.

Sorry about the lame joke, I am short myself, so I often joke about finding unique ways to get around it

Carl

[babygeige]

No worries on the joke! I thought it was cute, just forgot to say so before. My whole family is relatively short (my brother being the tallest at about 5' 10'), so we tease each other about it all the time.

I don't have the tank yet. We're supposed to go pick it up sometime this week. I'm going to have to clean it out really well with some bleach. Do you think I need new gravel? I'm sure he didn't take it out of the tank yet. I'm torn as to whether I should clean it and reuse it or just toss it and get new stuff. I believe it's a natural brown color, similar to what I have in my 30 gallon, although I can't be sure because it was so covered in BBA.

I'm really starting to look forward to getting this going! After reading Jon's suggestions in the other thread for matute, I'm going to do some serious research into cichlids. I haven't paid much attention to them before because none of my tanks were really a suitable size for them, except for the dwarf ones.

[bikeguy33]

i agree on the cichlids....maybe a couple yellow labs and a pleco. most cichlids do well with a small school of danios. keeps the cichlids chasing. btw....congrats on the ne tank....cant wait for pics...

[Carl]

My thought on the gravel is since it had BBA issues, I would either bleach it or start over fresh, even though this means going through a nitrogen cycle re-start.
Even then since you have other healthy tanks, re-starting the nitrogen cycle should not be too difficult with media and substrate exchanges.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Congrats on the new tank. You definitely earned it after all the work you did on it. I forgot if you still had the pleco, angel, and cory, but if you still have them, why not keep some of them in your new tank?

Another option (and very easy to keep) are tetras. The more you have the more stunning they are to watch as they swim around as a school. Most grow only up to 2 inches and you can keep at least 6 (or more) per 10 gallons of water.

Best of luck with the new setup!

BTW, my family is short too. I am 5 foot 4 and one of the taller ones in my family. (Of course, a couple of my cousins are an inch or two taller.)

[jonv]

Steph, glad if it helped because with the 30 gallon typical footprints you do have options to work with.

It seems not many people keep the Tangyangikan shell dwellers that I've looked for. Was hoping to find some keepers of them and find out if there were any tips about them. The only things I can think of, the water in Tangyangika is quite harder then the other lakes, so you may want to keep the cichlid salts on hand for them. The very small size they grow to would allow more for you to keep, but your goal would probably be to have more females. From what I saw of them in Tangyangika, they are quite competitive those males are. They may not physically fight much, but they really compete for the shells.

I'd probably aim for 2 males, and set up a barrier in the middle forming a impromptu divider, then shell up both sides to placate the males, and probably give them about 3 females each.

Now since alot don't seem to keep them, that might give you a high price tag making them not feasable for you. Secondary options would be a Mbuna group as they are common and not extremely expensive, but you'd be down to 1 species due to the space, 1 male 4 females. You'd want to move from shells to rocks instead. Turns out I do have a female Red Top Hongi that just let a few babies loose. I really don't need any more males, getting you a male for that species wouldn't be hard, getting females would be as it'll probably take 4-5 months before I could sex any of the offspring. Sending them from NJ to PA wouldn't be much so I could get you the fish, but it's going to take time for the new spits to grow out.

Any Victorian group would work too. If you want a colorful one that's aggressive, Sp. 44 is a nice one to go with. I point this one out as the other ones with nice color are more endangered and probably have a price tag like shell dwellers. You could just as well get a peacock group. Aulonocara Baenshci or even Ruby Reds, Sunshines, Lemonjakes all have nice colors. Peacocks get some bulk to them but should work if you keep again, key here 1 species grouping.

You have most any dwarf South American option open too. The Aquedins Pulchers are not bad, mild on aggression, Keyholes, Geophagus, Rams all in your choices only still with these, the male females become group pairs rather then harem is all.

Keep in mind if you have additional tanks, probably not a larger one I think reading the input, if they spawn you'd want to isolate offspring, and doing the right ratio, odds are they will spawn at some point. Just as well if raising spawns is too much work, you do not have to isolate offspring either. It seems cruel but it's not a necessity to do. Nature has it's own way in natural habitats as all offspring do not reach adulthood.

You do have alot of options if you go that way.

[babygeige]

This new tank is a 50 gallon corner tank. After doing a bit of reading last night, I worry that the tank's footprint isn't big enough to keep mbuna, even though I'd love to have some. It's more of a taller tank.

This is a picture of it from the winter when it was at the previous owner's house before I brought the fish home: It's about 21 inches tall (for water depth), the sides are 25", it's 26' from the back to the front of the bow, and from corner to corner, it's 36"


I've always wanted to get some of those Tangyangikan shell dwellers or another "dwarf" cichlid. Do you think they'd be ok in a tank like this one? I'm thinking of stocking of a small harem of them (1 male and a few females?), a school of fish that mainly live in the mid to top part of the tank, and then the pleco that used to live there.

It being so beastly humid today gives me a good excuse to stay inside, clean the leftover algae out of that tank, and do some more research. Another fish I'm looking into is the paradise fish.

[jonv]

You still can do a Mbuna group same as would be the shell dwellers Steph. With a Bow, you have only one long run, but the depth front to back cuts down on the overall footprint so even though that's a 50, you'd normally be able to do a couple species safe in a rectangle, since the bow starts compressing at the back, you really don't have quite the normal room. However you could probably do a nice Mbuna/Peacock combo out of that, so long as you keep that Mbuna to 1 male, you'd be fine.

The shellies I'd imagine that if you used a shell group left side/right side you probably could do 2 species, and I'd use that big object back/right side of tank, can't see what it is clearly, and put that in the dead middle forming a natural divide. Using that as a divide, shell up the left and right side, you should be able to work a pair of species with shellies. Respectively a male shouldn't get much bigger then 2 inches, thus with that footprint you're allowing enough space as long as you use a middle divide. Shellies can get expensive though depending on your species and you'll want to keep your water harder then if you had Mbuna or Vics. Tang waters are the hardest of the African groups, keep that in mind.

Dwarfs could be tricky, but remember your south americans don't harem group. They pair group when it comes to breeding, so you could try a group of one species and as they mature, you'll probably see one pair emerge out of it. Unsure what happens after since I never really went big into South Americans, but your Geophagus and Acara's have possibilities with that tank and have decent color. Keep in mind too, Kribs could work into that as well since they have about the same water needs.

[babygeige]

I highly doubt that I'll be using any decor from the tank's previous life. The rocks that you kind of see in the picture had plastic plants attached to them that are now gone. They had to be thrown out because of the algae, so there are weird little empty "sockets" that would be visible. Plus the algae has stained the rocks so they are a nasty shade of dark green and black. I'm not sure I want to go through the hassle of bleaching and scrubbing them. They've got probably 2 years worth of nasty build-up on them.

What about a small group of yellow labs or peacocks, maybe 3 females and 1 male...? I pointed out the yellow labs to my mom today at Petsmart. That was just about love at first sight for her, lol. From what I've read though, peacocks tend to be a bit more peaceful. Petsmart didn't have peacocks. Not that I'd buy them there though. They looked a bit rough, probably from being stuck in a 5 or 8 gallon tank together. The labs looked ok, but I still won't get them there.

Do you think they'd give my pleco a hard time? He's my priority. If something won't leave him alone, I won't keep it. Do most mbuna pretty much hang out in the bottom to middle area? It'd be nice to have some fish for the top part of the tank.

[bikeguy33]

i have seldom seen any problem with a pleco and any cichlid outside of mayby a jaguar or a flowerhorn....especially if the pleco is larger. just make sure there are alot of caves etc for the cichlids....no matter what you get...btw....you will find them to be near mid dwellers...

[jonv]

I agree with Bill 90%, with the only exception being similar to what he said. Substrate spawning types, Madagascars, South/Central Americans/ and the Riverines from African could be a problem being they lay eggs in the substrate. As I found out what happend with the Pytchochromis Oligocanthus, parents rest at night when something like cories, botia's and pleco's would be more active. A pleco could dent spawning attempts from substrate spawning types. With Mbuna, as the 75 here is mostly Mbuna, they tend to just ignore the pleco in there, and it's a big common pleco type.

Labidochromis Caereleus (Yellow Labs) should be just fine. The only trick you might find with that species, sexing them is often difficult short of venting as no distinct physical features on the body have high accuracy. If you elect to go with a group of them, I would approach with a 2 fold plan. Either A, get a group and be prepared to trade/return/sell off extra males as they grow, or B, pay upfront from a proven breeder to get known male/female group. Even with the Hongi which just spit out a small group of fry for me, the female displays a nice splash of red on her, so females can easily take on a male look from time to time. Sexing based on look can be difficult at times.

Peacocks should be fine. They will get slightly larger then a Mbuna but will dwell mostly in the mid sometimes upper area of the tank and generally aren't highly aggressive. Males will display the color and females will be quite plain looking making Peacocks easier to sex. Ruby Red or Rubescins, Lemonjakes or Benga's offer a nice red or yellow choice. A Peacock/Mbuna split should be just fine in that tank as there's just enough height in there to support the peacocks.

[babygeige]

I'm really not concerned about what kind of dent the pleco would put on spawning. I'm more concerned about what kind of dent crabby cichlids will put in my pleco. I'm not sure how much I want to get into breeding at this time, so a little "natural selection" really wouldn't be too bad.

I'm pretty intrigued by your peacock/Mbuna suggestion. That would make for a nice visual attraction, having fish spread throughout the height of the tank, which is what I'm looking to do.
I definitely want fish that are more on the peaceful end of the cichlid aggression scale. I also dug through my old TFH magazines. I found several articles that might help. I haven't read though all of them yet, but one does mention Keyholes and at least one kind of Acara as candidates for a "community" setting. I have to spend some time and really read through those.

There's just so much to think about! I appreciate all of your input Jon (and everyone else too!). It's really helping a lot! I'm taking my time and (trying to) research properly to figure out what will fit best with what I'm hoping to achieve. Then I'll have to figure out how to "aquascape" appropriately. I'm just desperately afraid that I'm going to mess up and end up with a horrible blood bath one day!!
I think what it's going to come down to is what selection the lfs has and how much I'm willing to spend. Next weekend I'm hoping to get down there and do some recon and narrow my choices down.

[corycatwoman]

venestus tend to be more timid and are great at camoflauging themselves from the bigger guys. if your starting out with africans for a first time definately give them a fair shot. or atleast a browse they are interesting looking to say the least.

venustus (giraffe cichlid)

[kagome]

Have you considered discus? You could have 4 or 5 plus some dithers in the tank.

[jonv]

Actually yeah Discus only would probably work. You'd want that to be Discus only though since they don't deal with stress very well and you would want to keep the water more upkept then with Africans. They have nice colors too, and the size range would probably be just about right. Good choice there too.

Nimbochromis Venustus though not as good a choice. That's a much larger growing Hap type that in that size tank is going to end up cramped. I've had them for six months till they grew out in a 75, and they eventually got too large for that footprint. They tend to take almost a year to mature if from fry sized, but when full grown, the footprint there wouldn't be that good of a choice for you.

[babygeige]

I would absolutely LOVE to keep discus. I'm not sure I have the time for the water changes though. I want to keep it to once a week. Besides, they need pretty soft acidic water, don't they? Or is that just if you want to breed them?
Our water is fairly hard and alkaline, so Africans might be the better match for my well water.

Tomorrow I'm going to go to the lfs and see what they have. I've only got one store to choose from, other than the big box stores. There is another store in my area that I went to about 3 years ago. I was really disappointed because it's a very nice store except for the fact that they carry Tattooed Mollies. So I haven't gone back. I called them yesterday to see if they have given up carrying those poor abused fish, but they haven't. I plan on emailing them and letting them know they're missing out on sales because of that.

I'm going to at least grab some substrate while I'm at the good lfs and a background. It seems that pretty much all the fish I'm considering would prefer a fine substrate, so that should be a safe bet. Maybe I'll get some rocks as well. I don't really have any clue how to build a rocky aquascape with caves and such. That's going to take some experimenting.

[Carl]

I will jump in here as to the thumbs up for Discus and similar Amazon River basin fish. These have always been my favorite cichlids, not just for color, but for the graceful beauty (IMO) and challenge of upkeep.
Personally I think upkeep is not all that difficult, however keeping Amazon Basin fish has been an area of extreme misinformation which often leads aquarium keepers astray with poor results.
When I kept Discus in So. California, we had extremely hard water, yet by utilizing RO and re-mineralizing and adding water softening products as well as disease prevention products (such as UV Sterilizers), I had little problems compared to other fish.
Admittedly one needs to expect a more yellow, tannin rich aquarium, but this is what best replicates their environment

One more opinion as per the tattooed fish, while I also disagree with this, I also know that there is a big demand for these, (my visits to wholesalers in LA that distributes fish across North America tells me this). I think some stores may simply be attempting to survive in a tough economy by supplying what many customers want. So my opinion is to not write off these stores for this reason alone. I personally would be more critical if the store was selling known junk products or advice that would likely have poor results for your aquarium, as this is more widespread and I have found based on the many questions I get to be far more prevalent and destructive. I guess my point is you can refuse to buy a fish, but if you go in for help and he/she sells you a junk product (or advice) only because there is a higher profit margin or they are simply too lazy to educate themselves, this is much more destructive to an aquarium hobbyist.
Just my 2 cents

Carl