Dead Bottom Feeders, really odd

[jonv]

Tank Size: 75 Gallon
Age of the tank: 3 years
pH: About 7.9, fluctuates slightly upwards a bit
Ammonia: Well it's up there now about .5, had been cycled long ago
NitrAtes: Still showing some in the 20's range
nitrites: Showing some here too about .2 or .3
GH/KH: Don't have the tester for this but I add Cichlid buffers
Temperature: On the cool side about 75, heater started going up too much, turned it off for a couple days
Fish:

Pseudotropheus Hongi (Red Top)
Labidochromis Careleus
Forget the first part, a Hap I think starts with a U. Flavescent
2 unknown female Peacocks
1 OB Peacock dominant male
a few stray Red Zebras that were being held by 1 of the unknown female peacocks when acquired, Found out she crossed with Red Zebra looking at fry.

HAD 1 nice sized Hop Lo Cat
1 large male Kenyi
3 4 inch clown loaches

Symptoms:

Skin paled slightly, appeared to be slight fin rot. Very small white patches occuring, nothing like the Columnaris I had in the 180 though.

Lethargy, lack of usual activity from the Kenyi

Last night was increased activity in the tank, could hear some splashing around a bit more then normal.

Found them dead, the Kenyi, Loaches and Hop lo this morning. Day before, the 1 Paratilapia Polleni I was keeping there died, same stuff, small white spot areas, hanging to itself in the tank, fin rot around the edges, at some point started laying upside down, but alive.

Unsure what this could have been. Started with the Polleni and then the Male Kenyi was discoloring. I did a treatment with Meth Blue/Maraoxy and Quick cure to try to cover all bases. Since I have the 20 with the yellow lab holding in it, so no isolation tank possible. Did as a tank all treatment.

The only thing that makes sense is maybe the quick cure is harsh on cats and loaches? That's the only thing I can think is maybe I put a little too much quick cure and they were reacting to that last night? I find it weird, the day before it was the polleni and kenyi I lost, this morning was all the bottom feeders, cept the Pleco.

[Carl]

First, sorry about this terrible loss Jon.
Sorry I missed this thread last night, I was having a terrible day and it was hard to get back to EA and look around much.

This seems to describe an ammonia burn, but I doubt this is not the case.

Can you provide a timeline of symptoms per fish as well as a timeline for medication introduction?

Maroxy has stabilized chlorine oxides which can be harsh if over dosed or combined with other strong medication (similar in effect to Potassium Permanganate). I would not recommend mixing with Quick Cure.

As well, I have found ParaGuard to be less harsh on sensitive fish than Quick Cure.

Is there a way to test your GH/KH, as well as ammonia/nitrites?

As for possible diseases, this may have been Streptococcus, but I am not certain and I have a feeling that there was some added medication interaction.

A combination of Pimafix/Melafix may have been a good start, or a stronger treatment of Triple Sulfa or Erytrhomycin.

Carl

[jonv]

That's ok Carl, take care what you have to and hope it gets better for you soon. Ok boss, timeline best I can remember here:

I got everything I want to keep here at the house with me back around the23rd/24th Feb. I started looking in on the 75 gallon and had I noticed the Male Kenyi was a little paler then his typical yellow. That really didn't alarm me with a Kenyi as they often shift their colors around, just don't really see it in a male, usually it's a female. I had already moved the 100 gallon to here back from 18th or so, just allowing the water to stablize and put some fish food in after first setting it up to give it small ammonia source so no/little bacterial loss. Fish were brought over and transferred after I let the new water settle a few days.

Ok so it's the 23rd/24th Feb or so I noticed the Kenyi's coloring faded a bit didn't think that much about it. Now the Polleni's were in the 100. I kept 3 out of the group, the best looking, the rest were traded. Considering the males of this species are highly aggressive, that bucket spill in the car when moving I know hurt them a bit too. Ammonia must have spiked bad in that bucket as I lost half the water, 20-25 mins before I could get to their new tank. Pretty sure that's why the one I moved to the 75 was weak, combo of the dominant Polleni harassing it a bit and still not built up from the move and accident that occured.

I know this is a bit choppy trying to reconstruct this. Ok so again we are at the 22nd23rd time frame Feb, noticed Kenyi male in 75 looking slightly pale, yellow coloring fading a bit. Around the 3rd of March or so, 1 Polleni in the 100 starting to show some signs of fin rot and going back to grey in color instead of the jet black so I moved him to the 75 figuring he was being harassed by the bigger male.

The color of the Kenyi continued to fade, the Polleni hadn't really started comming back to deeper black after arond the 5th or so, so I did a water change to see if that'd help. Found the teen who'd been watching over this tank before I moved hadn't done such a great job again, most of what came out of the substrate was closer to black then brown. Not a deep black but much darker then what I pull out of my tanks when I clean so I'm sure there was a much higher content of DOC in there.

Still no changes really in either the Kenyi or Polleni after a week or so, so now we looking at around the 11th/12th time frame and I start to see a slight bit of fin fray on the loaches. A younger bumblebee, Ps. Crabro, I had in the 100 got in a fight with one of the young peacocks for some reason, got cloudy eye from that so I moved him over to give him a break. Figured would be better since I have a mature Bumblebee in there too, sorry forgot to list him. Funny about that note. With a cloudy eye from fight, that bumblebee doesn't seem to be effected one way or another by the med or whatever got to the bottom feeders.

Ok so it's now the 15th, no changes to the fish I moved, nothing really getting better, seen fin rot starting in on the loaches, and I had on hand, Meth Blue, Quick Cure, and Maroxy which I used figuring well I can cover most bases and see what happens. Not that good on meds sorry and normally I'd just isolate but the 20 is all I have left for extras and the holding female yellow lab is waiting her brood to come out in there. Noticed the Polleni at times would lay upside down in the substrate with an almost dead like appearence to it, but if you went to net it, then it got upright and moved around like normal. So I did a tank all treatment with what I listed, meth blue, quick cure and maroxy with this logic. If parasite like ick maybe quick cure might help, if it was bacterial the meth blue should help and if it was a fungus thinking the Maroxy should help.

Well I kept the Polleni in the big net I have isolated so he couldn't get stressed from everyone else, he didn't make it that night. The next day that's when all the splashing occurred and found the Hop Lo, and 3 loaches all dead. Water clouding up with traces of ammonia and nitrite in there. Kenyi also found dead too.

The Africans best I can figure ok makes some sort of sense with their aggression levels, really scratching my head on the Hop Lo and Loaches though.

Don't have any Gh/KH testers Carl, when check comes in if you have one am getting one.

[Carl]

OK, this time line does help explain this (although I am not 100% positive).

It does appear that this started with stress and or ammonia/nitrite poisoning (maybe even pH shock? tracking your KH can help determine this too, and I have GH/KH in both liquid and test strips)

Unfortunately Quick Cure and Maroxy do not mix, and this may have hurt more than helped (sorry, please do not take as a lecture on your treatment method, just objective notes).

There may be an infection at this point too (possibly Aeromonas or Strep, although Strep is generally not as opportunistic as Aeromonas, and Strep is more virulent, so I have my doubts to this possibility since not all fish are sick).

At this point, medicated baths or hospital quarantine using Methylene Blue is your best chance.

In tank a Melafix/Pimafix combination would be my suggestion, although a Medicated Wonder Shell may help too (use one or the other)

Carl

[jonv]

I'll get an order out then next week no doubts Carl. Them medicated shells would help and I'll be using Prime quite a bit until the bio filter resets. Maybe I'll just not add the cichlid salts for a bit to keep it from toxifying the nitrogen stuff further.

No if something don't mix like that, you need to say so I can make sure not to repeat that again. I just only saying my concept was since I didn't know what might be causing the problems figured broadband might cover it. If I see a chance to treat singly a fish I'll just use the 10 gallon bucket. All in all it's not horrible I just found it really odd to find all the bottom feeders minus the 1 pleco wiped out over night. Quick cure would cause them problems or what might hit a Hop Lo and 3 loaches like that? Only thing that comes to mind is the common denominator, senastivity to stuff.

[jonv]

Additional information.

It seems however the spreading of cloudy eye in the 75 is spreading. Unsure why that might be the case but I'll use the 10 gallon bucket time being for individual treatments. Meth blue for that right?

[parker002]

This sounds similar to what I experienced with my bottom feeders.

In all, I lost two plecos, 3 otos, and a half dozen cory cats. I have one cory left. I never really did figure out what did it.

[Carl]

Mar 18, 2010 10:40:22 GMT -5 jonv said:

Additional information.

It seems however the spreading of cloudy eye in the 75 is spreading. Unsure why that might be the case but I'll use the 10 gallon bucket time being for individual treatments. Meth blue for that right?

Maybe the infection is more virulent than I thought.
Unlike most aquatic infections, cloudy eyes is generally gram positive (which was part of the reason behind my initial Melafix/Pimafix combination suggestion).

Methylene Blue would definitely be a good start, possibly a stronger treatment of Potassium Permanganate via a bath, quarantine or diluted direct application.

You may need to consider treatment with Erythromycin if this continues to worsen

See:
Streptoccocus, Eye Infections; Aquarium Answers
Fish Baths, Dips, Direct Application

Carl

[jonv]

That's what I love about this group Carl. You will always link in the research you did for a particular problem. I must confess a lazy habit of not digging up the work you did. I know it's there and I rely more on memory. I apologize for that but ty for that link. I still also have some of the Usnia I got, would that work at all by chance?

I believe I still have some permangonate too, will have to check in the closet. I found a local private owner too. I have a good outlet for excess offspring, but this guy also carries full lines of most anything so if I need something on a fast basis, I can grab from him. Anything I can project out, I order from you.

On that note too Carl, I ran outta prime but seeing the water clouded with traces of ammonia and nitrite showing, I got a decent sized bottle of Prime to keep the toxicity down for now. If I don't have permangonate I'm going to put that in the order along with the Eryth.

It's just cloudy eye in the 75. Some small white spots, not really patches, almost pimple like but not a patch starting to show on a few in the 100. Cloudy eye don't seem to be too bad there, however the male Fulu has totally dimmed out his colors now. Really odd but I'm watching everything and noting what I can. He does have one female with a rather large pouch of eggs in her mouth

Quarrentine isn't that much of an option at this point. I no longer have the Betta tank or the 15. The 180 is in storage, no room, so it's just the 100, 75 and the 20 which is being occupied with a holding female lab. Can't put any fry in any large tank for a few months at least. Has to be baths only via the 10 bucket right now.

[Carl]

The Usnea is good for mild gram positive infections (especially when used in a bath environment), but it is not as strong as Erythromycin.

Speaking of Usnea, so as to give you an idea of effectiveness; although I am not a fish, treatment any related bacterial pathogen is basically the same regardless of the host (infected animal).
Anyway I developed a mild case of Strep throat and the usnea took care of it, however I later developed a more serious sinusitis infection that the Usnea worked mildly for and then it slipped back, I then went to the Dr. and she prescribed Eyrthromycin and this took care of the problem in a couple of days.

My point in this little story is to make the point that not all medications are equal even if they treat similar pathogens. Melafix for instance is also a natural gram positive treatment that works for mild (often early stage) gram positive infections, but is rarely effective for more serious gram positive infections.

Carl