Losing my Angels!!!!

[DaharkazAngel]

Tank Size: 100 gal 6 foot long 18 inch high 18 inch wide
Age of the tank: nearly 1 year
pH: 7.2
Ammonia:
NitrAtes:
nitrites:
GH/KH:
Temperature: 26
Fish:

5 Angels (lost my goldern the other day now one of my 5 is critically ill same symptoms!)
15 rummynose tetras
6 black neons
9 cory cats
4 khulis
1 red tail shark
1 clown loach
1 yeallow lab
Bristlnose catfish pair and AT LEAST 12 babies decent size (think this may be whats causeing me issues. Cant find a buyer at this stage.

Symptoms:

Its my Angels. My goldern Angel had a lump on him the other day whitch i thought was from a fight. Within a few days he looked skinny and was swimming in the current of the filter constantly. From what i could tell he didnt eat as usual and his breathing was very fast. He died. Now my marble is looking thin has RAPID breathing and is sitting on the bottom of the tank!! Im worried this is the same thing my other Angel had and it will spread throught my tank! This second Angle is deteriorating WAY quicker then the golden. HELP!!!!!! Heres a vid of him i took a few mins ago, i havnt dubbed it yet. And ill also post a vid of the golden i took a day before he died.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNzh43Xop08

www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnL9t2T48mw

HELP guys im stressed. I work tomorrow and know i wont see a response for hours (being on the other side of the world) I hope he makes it!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Also i think it could be my overstock on catfish bubs causeing this, dunno how but i know a high bio load with only one 25% water change a week cant be good. Also i cant find a buyer for them, will give them away if needed just want my Angels to live!!

[jonv]

Hi Angel, glad to see you here.

I by no means am good with illness stuff, so please understand I'm going on the basis as if this were my fish/tank and had no other help or answers.

My guess looking it is is a parasite of some kind. Not my strong point here but looking at the stock listing, age of tank, I can't see this being a fight honestly.

If I had nothing else to go on, again, in your shoes I'd try like asap giving a meth blue bath. This might help with the breathing aspect at least. I suspect those spots look parasitic in nature, however what I would do for it, would cost you your plants so, I dunno, need Carl on this part. I'd try to use some sort of copper sulfate treatment at least to rid any aspect of parasites. If you have any sort of isolation tank, this would be the time. Get that one out into isolation like soon, use a meth blue bath and try some coppersafe. If it's this rapid I dunno. I do hope Carl gets on this one soon and best of luck. Very fine looking tank and set up though!

[DaharkazAngel]

Thanks jon, unfortunatley no spare tank at this time and all i have on hand is some out of date meth blue. This one really caught me off guard, have had no issues for so long!! Btw forgot to add this has been a issue with my deceased angel BEFORE i added the two real plants.. He looks real bad now. Hope he makes it to the morn. Worst case senario i lose all my fish and start again i guess.....ahh the lows and highs of fish keeping as a begginer (less then 5 years). Thanks again mate. Its 7pm here so i guess youll be my only answer till i get home at 330 tomorrow. Gotta love a full time job working every weekend, self inflicted tho since i do rosters lol. Cheers mate.

[Carl]

Sorry to read this DarkAngel (sorry that we have this terrible time lag too, although it was great Jon was up late to help!)

I agree with the bath utilizing Methylene Blue as a first step.

This may be the Deadly Angel Virus (we referred to it as Angelfish Aids when I and others first noticed it).
I base this on the symptoms and the very rapid progression of health deterioration.

I wish I had better news, but this is very difficult to treat.
Besides the bath, I would combine these medications:
*Nitrofursazone (Furan 2)
*Kanamycin
*SeaChem ParaGuard

See: Aquarium Medications 2; Nirofurazone, Aquatronics

I (& others have had some success with this very strong & harsh mix of medications).

I also strongly suggest a UV Sterilizer as this can be very helpful with prevention of this in the future (at this point the addition will do little to help). If you have a UV Sterilizer already, make sure to change the UV Bulb every six months for optimum effectiveness.
See: UV Sterilization

I wish you & your fish well

Carl

[DaharkazAngel]

OK, so i went to the LPS after seeing my boy still sitting on the bottom of the tank. After talking to the guy there that sold me the fish we concluded the only thinkg we can think of that attacks ONE fish at a time is tape worm. So i pulled him outta the 100 and put him in the bettas 10 gal (and put him in a breeder in my last 10 gal, hes not happy lol) and have added worming treatment. The last Angel that died was found in a log sometime after actully dying, this wouldve given the worm a chance to find another host. WEll thats my theory and i hope im right. Im really iffy with using meth blue as a bath (im scarred from my ram) but if this fails and it is that virus carl i dunno what ill do. Do i spend the $$$ and save my last 4 Angels (or at least TRY) or just give up on Angels for a while. There is not much info on Angel Aids but i def does exist!. Anyway guys ill keep you posted, at this stage hes quite bad laying on his side. He WANTS to eat but just cant. Heres hoping its worms hey. ...

[Carl]

I hope this guy is correct, however the videos were very classic symptoms of this virus or possibly Ichthyophonus Fungi, but not tapeworms, so I have to disagree with him.

You noted there is not much on Angelfish Aids/Virus, I have an article I started about this, but have not had time to finish (I have been swamped with work/email and also been sick), as well I needed a good picture to show (Gregg who runs my previous maintenance business has not been able to provide me with a usable pic.). I was going to ask you for permission to use your videos as the symptoms are classic of this virus.

Carl

[corycatwoman]

a simple suggestion and economical idea that may help your situation on water changes. as for the disease i can not help for ive never owned angels.

instead of a 25 percent water change try a 50 percent and 75 percent gravel vaccum and that should lower your load a bit until you can get rid of some of those cats.

only a suggestion use your own judgement ive been rusty with large tanks been some years now and would like to upgrade again but in the apt i can only handle a few small ones or one large one and i like multiples.

[DaharkazAngel]

Lost him guys =( Carl i give you permission to use any pics or vids i upload to site. Ive decided to do two water changes a week 4 days apart, hopefully my other Angels will be ok. They are eating well but the colour of two worry me, carl you say they turn dark? Well mine fade instead...Ill keep you guys posted, im unsure weather to return the betta to his tank after a water change and filter clean....thanks for your help guys, hopefully this is not Angel aids.

[bikeguy33]

it sure seems parasitic in nature.....if so....jon`s thought of copper is a good one. maybe start at 1/2 dose....inverts and plants could make it through that! good luck aND keep us posted on results...

[jonv]

Carl's always said too that UV you pretty much can't go wrong the only thing I'm not off the top of my head sure of, if with a virus it'll work on that. Clearly not for treating but more for keeping it from getting in and started. Even if it doesn't work on virus's still, I think it's like the steel shield thing for keeping most any pathogen out Angel, I think that investment would be worth your while for sure.

Looking at this again, you know what I'm curious about? Where you get and use your water from? From what I saw of your tank plus your routine and IMO your bio load is not even heavy at all, I am thinking you doing what you need to do on your end for maintenance, so maybe if this got in, it's already in the water itself? Trying to rule out/cover all aspects. Looked to me like you got plenty of space in there, so that's another clue. If this is an opportunistic type pathogen, it's got to be the virus Carl's looking at because I cannot see your fish being weak due to aggression. The decor set up you have looked just right so any aggression, the one that can't cope has plenty of places to take cover.

I dunno only kinda looking at this outside. I don't know what else besides that to add. Carl's the doctor on this stuff

[Carl]

Sorry Angel

You mentioned the color of the other two, what is the change..
I am not sure where I said they get more dark, generally the progression is lighter in color.

Water changes as suggested, and a UV Sterilizer in particular can help check the spread, of coarse assuming it is the Angelfish Virus/Aids (which again the videos really appeared to show).

One aspect of this infection that is not clear is spread, my observations show simply water borne, but a few others have stated direct contact (I have not observed this, but I am not discounting it either).
Another aspect in is immunity, often some angelfish develop immunity and survive or never show symptoms, however these fish can be carriers for a months, so adding other angels during this time, especially without measures such as a UV Sterilizer (you should be able to find one in Australia) to check the spread would not be a good idea.

Carl

[DaharkazAngel]

Ive spoke to a few work colleges and there is apartently a few water borne diseases i can get locally. A mate of mine lost a whole tank of fish to something starting with c, like columnious or rather. Dunno spelling just sounding it out lol. May have to invest in a UV. Carl my Angels seem 'faded' particully my black striped one. Like say i moved them from one tank to another or just turned the light on suddenly, like that drasrically faded, He does colour up but not for long. This is VERY unual behaviour. Guess time will tell if they are infected. I did buy my Angels are seperate intervals but that tank is almost a year old and some angels are older then this tank set up itself....so why so long to show signs??

[Carl]

Columnaris is a very common opportunistic bacterial infection, but the symptoms do not match, as well since it is an opportunistic infection, your aquarium care/parameters also do not indicate this.

See our article about Columnaris:Columnaris

Getting dark and light is often a reaction, and although being more reactive can be indicative of a disease, it does not prove an infection either

Didn't you recently add plants?
Do you know the original origin of these plants?

Angelfish Virus was the most prevalent in the Southeast Asia Fish Farms, which is not all that far from your location, and some farms there may still be having issues or have fish that are carriers.

As fish that is immune will never show signs; often a fish may be exposed before purchase and will never develop the viral disease when exposed again, but other fish mates that do not have immunity will develop the disease.

See the new article I made for this disease:
Angelfish Aids/Virus

Found at Aquarium Answers

Carl

[DaharkazAngel]

I did recently add to plants, there origins are far as i can trace is from brisbane( a large grower and seller of plants here, BIG company). However my golden was not well before i added my plants, i just didnt realise i had something this big on my hands =(. Btw my plants are doing well. I doubt it has anything to do with my plants but i cant rule it out. Angels are still ok today, 3 are sticking together but one stays seperate alot, hes my biggest by far hopefullly i dont loose him. So pretty too. The two i said were fading in and out still are....will post when i see changes. Thanks for the link carl =)

[goldenpuon]

I have no experience with this disease but I have learned a trick for handling newly arrived goldfish to minimize stress. Put a blanket, towel, or whatever you need to get the tank fairly dark. This seems to help stressed fish. This is a complete shot in the dark but it is worth trying.

Good luck! Hope the rest of your angels make it! take care.

Renee

[corycatwoman]

Mar 15, 2010 10:07:32 GMT -5 Carl said:

Columnaris is a very common opportunistic bacterial infection, but the symptoms do not match, as well since it is an opportunistic infection, your aquarium care/parameters also do not indicate this.

See our article about Columnaris:Columnaris

Getting dark and light is often a reaction, and although being more reactive can be indicative of a disease, it does not prove an infection either

Didn't you recently add plants?
Do you know the original origin of these plants?

Angelfish Virus was the most prevalent in the Southeast Asia Fish Farms, which is not all that far from your location, and some farms there may still be having issues or have fish that are carriers.

As fish that is immune will never show signs; often a fish may be exposed before purchase and will never develop the viral disease when exposed again, but other fish mates that do not have immunity will develop the disease.

See the new article I made for this disease:
Angelfish Aids/Virus

Found at Aquarium Answers

Carl

i have to add to this.

colomnaris in my experience is one of those diseases that once you have it you can not get rid of it with out re doing all your substrate and all your water column. which is unnessesary for the disease only affects the opertunistic fish as carl said.

i have seen this disease in many different types of tanks. from community tanks. to single species tanks. from agressive tanks and peaceful tanks.

usually it is introduced from a questionable water source and you will never know its there until one of your fish gets stressed/sick/or even old.

once the fish is weak the disease will strike and there is little hope for your fish at this point for it usually is already sick with another disease which caused the opertunistic disease to strike.

i feel and believe others that have had experience with this disease will say this is not the case in your tank for your water parameters and species tanks are ideal. the only chance that you may have this in your tank is by adding plants/substrate/fish/ water from a tank that has had this in the past.


keep us all updated on what signs of stress the rest of your fish including your angels are having periodicly and the indications of what they may be stressed about would give myself alot more idea of how this disease may have been entered and the fish vulnerable enough to come down with a case.