Pop eyes hasn't heal in 4 weeks of treatment

[ktltn04]

Tank Size: 20 gal hospital tank
Age of the tank: 3 days
pH:
Ammonia:
NitrAtes:
nitrites:
GH/KH:
Temperature: 85F
Fish:

1 flowerhorn

Symptoms:

I have do 3 kind of treatments on this fish. first time i try with triple sulfa but it only heal about 80% n stop healing. Next i try to treat with maracyn two for 1 week n pop eyes still there. The last time i tried using triple sulfa with tetracynline for 10 days n the fish still has pop eyes n color still dark. I just move it back in the maintain for about 3 days. What should i use next? please help thanks

[Carl]

What are your water parameters and filtration, as well as maintenance procedures.
The reason I ask is often many diseases (especially Pop Eye which is often caused by Aeromonas bacteria which is very opportunistic) are caused by less than perfect conditions, maintenance methods or filtration. As long as these conditions exist, all the medications in the world will not work.

This is not to say this is your problem, but pop eye is most often caused by Aeromonas bacterium which only thrive in anaerobic conditions.

Please provide more details (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, GH, KH, pH) plus filtration and methods of cleaning. As well I would lower your tank temperature to under 80 F.

Please also read these articles:
A Healthy Aquarium; Disease Prevention
Aeromonas Bacterial Infections including Pop Eye
How Medications Work, Proper use of Treatments

You also may need to improve mineralization which will in turn improve osmoregulation which is important to remove trapped fluids. Salt, calcium, magnesium are essential for this.

A Medicated Bath using Methylene Blue and slat may also be helpful.

Furan 2 combined with Kanamycin can be a powerful combination, and Paraguard can be added for a real strong treatment.
But again if your ammonia is high and you lack essential minerals, these treatments can actually cause more problems than help if not corrected first.

Carl

[ktltn04]

thanks for your reply. I think my flowerhorn got pop eyes because i didn't remove uneaten makret shrimp n didn't do enough water change when the time i was busy. I moved it in a 20gal hospital tank with aged water. So basically the tank is pretty new without any ammonia unless i feed it but i didn't feed anything during the treatment. Then i follow the direction of the med i used to do water change but didn't get any luck to get rid of those disease.

[Carl]

I would definitely give the medicated baths a try, as well make sure you have adequate mineral ions & a tablespoon of salt per 5 gallons.
See these article for the importance of mineral ions:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumKH.html
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2006/12/how-do-fish-drink.html

Pop Eye is not easy to treat, and often has different or multiple causes (sometimes even a genetically weak fish).

The treatment I noted in the last post might be necessary.

Please post your water parameters so other might see if anything was missed (as well as from the older tank as your fish may have originally had an aeromonas or Saprolegnia infection based on your last post)

Carl

[bikeguy33]

also...too add to carls advice....often pop eye isnt totally curable. sometimes the damage is done, but the pathogen can be gone. i have seen in my professional maintenance and treatments that some fish....in particular tinfoil barbs, would often get pop eye....but i was normally called when it was horendous. i was able to heal them...altho the eye still looked like the disease was there if i made any sense here...lol.

[ktltn04]

Feb 20, 2010 23:04:48 GMT -5 bikeguy33 said:

also...too add to carls advice....often pop eye isnt totally curable. sometimes the damage is done, but the pathogen can be gone. i have seen in my professional maintenance and treatments that some fish....in particular tinfoil barbs, would often get pop eye....but i was normally called when it was horendous. i was able to heal them...altho the eye still looked like the disease was there if i made any sense here...lol.

I got what you mean. Sometimes popeyes will heal but the eyes still protruding. My flowerhorn popeyes haven't heal yet, i sitll can see little cloudy in the eyes and his health doesn't recover yet. Color is still dark and haven't eat anything in 4 weeks, may be little frozen blood worms. If possible i will take some pic and post up for you guy.

i just ordered all the med required in Carl's advice for the next treatment. Just 1 point i don't understand is medicated bath. How does it suppose to be done ? Am i suppose to mix the med in a bucket with water then put the fish in for couple minutes then move it back in the main tank ?

[Carl]

Generally a bath is anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours, but I normally suggest 20-30 minutes
I strongly recommend tank water (to avoid pH shock) and mix this in a container larger enough to hold the fish (and cover if he/she is a jumper)
The medications can be added while the fish is present in the container, I prefer to pre disolve the salt, especially if I want to increase the amount of salt during the bath without undo stress.

This article I referred earlier also has a video too that may be of help:
Aquarium Answers; Medicated Baths

Carl

[parker002]

In general, pop eye isn't a disease, it's a symptom. It's just fluid retention and it's possible that it's not caused by a pathogen.

For example, kidney failure could lead to fluid retention, which in turn could display as pop eye. Kidney failure is most likely not treatable if it's gotten that far, which would explain why your fish aren't appearing to get better.

Probably not what you wanted to hear, but I just lost a male molly after battling pop eye for a few weeks. The good news is that they're not showing symptoms of further water retention outside of the eye - for example dropsy. My fish did, eventually swelling up like a balloon.

[parker002]

Also on a related note, read Carl's advice on proper mineralization and the like carefully.

While treating with anti-biotics and the like will help with a possible pathogen CAUSING the pop eye, they most likely won't do a thing to treat the pop eye itself.

It's the MB baths, salt, and mineralization that will help treat the fluid retention. Salt especially is good for easing fluid retention.

[ktltn04]

i just take a close look to my sick flowerhorn. I saw it have small holes in the face area, eyes r protruding more than before, and i see some thing white like a pimple next to the eyes, color is darker. i have been treating it with melafix n pimafix in the main tank. What should i do now because the medicines that i ordered are on the way here from Portland to Southern Cali. I really don't want to lose this fish because a special person gave it to me on my birthday present. If necessary i will take a picture n post up

[Carl]

Parker002 made some excellent points, such as potential kidney issues and fluid retention.

I wish I could paint a good picture for outcome, especially since this fish is special to you, but I unfortunately cannot.

One point that has been made here is to at least attempt a salt bath (if the fish is larger, use a small bucket) and using pre-dissolved salt slowly increase the salt during the bath from 1 teaspoon per gallon to as high as 3 teaspoons per gallon.

Increasing salt in the main aquarium and changing water would help improve conditions and allow the fish to better fight whatever the underlying problem is. Adding mineral ions may help too, whether via Wonder Shells, Aragamight, Replenish or similar.
BTW, I suspect this is much more than just pop eye, likely internal issues (such as Kidneys) possibly caused by a bacterial pathogen (likely Aeromonas if bacterial)..

Sorry I cannot give better news/advice

[ktltn04]

Feb 24, 2010 10:18:53 GMT -5 Carl said:

Parker002 made some excellent points, such as potential kidney issues and fluid retention.

I wish I could paint a good picture for outcome, especially since this fish is special to you, but I unfortunately cannot.

One point that has been made here is to at least attempt a salt bath (if the fish is larger, use a small bucket) and using pre-dissolved salt slowly increase the salt during the bath from 1 teaspoon per gallon to as high as 3 teaspoons per gallon.

Increasing salt in the main aquarium and changing water would help improve conditions and allow the fish to better fight whatever the underlying problem is. Adding mineral ions may help too, whether via Wonder Shells, Aragamight, Replenish or similar.
BTW, I suspect this is much more than just pop eye, likely internal issues (such as Kidneys) possibly caused by a bacterial pathogen (likely Aeromonas if bacterial)..

Sorry I cannot give better news/advice

thanks Carl n parker, i just received my medicines i ordered from you. I will start to use treatment tomorrow morning, since i just put metro+ n a dose of concentrate pimafix in a 20gal hospital tank in the early this morning. I'm thinking to add epsom salt with those medicine you recommend me earlier.

[goldenpuon]

I hope everything works out for you. Just wanted to point out though, epsom salt shouldn't be used in a tank, only in a bath. It's not actually really salt, it's something sulfate.

Best of luck!

[parker002]

To be scientifically accurate, "salt" is sodium chloride. Technically, a salt is a combination of a positively charged ion and a negatively charged ion, usually formed during the neutralization of an acid.

Epsom Salts (plural) is magnesium sulfate and can be very useful in these situations. Sodium chloride is a diuretic and can work to reduce fluid retention.

The main reason it might be preferrable to use Epsom Salts is because it's just more efficient than sodium chloride at absorbing moisture. But beyond that, magnesium is also thought to be an anti-inflammatory, which can definitely aid in treating situations like this.

[supramom2000]

I didn't want to start a new thread so I thought I'd add on with my questions and pictures.

I just added 2 fish last weekend (little peppered cories) and 2 this weekend, 2 fluorescent barbs. I had put in the medicated wondershell last weekend when adding the cories, and it was still there as of today when I found 1 white skirted tetra with pop-eye and 2 weird things at the base of its fins.

I immediately did a 50% water change while he was in a bath of MB, salt and epsom. Pulled the medicated wondershell and added Furan 2 and Kanamyacin. Put in regular wondershell. Temp was already below 80, but is about 79 now after water change. It should gradually decrease to about 75-76.

I have a UV (thanks Carl!!), and a canister filter that I had already pulled the Purigen from. I did not, however, pull the ammonia one (which name totally escapes me, but I bought from Carl). The bag with reddish chips.

Advice appreciated.

Pix added. Not great, sorry. It is the 2 solid looking things right at the base of the fins. Same color as the fish.


`

[Carl]

How large is this tank and what size Medicated Wonder Shells were used?

How long have these White Skirt Tetras been in the aquarium?

Also:
*Ammonia?
*KH?
*GH?

Is any salt used in the aquarium?

Purigen will also remove many ingredients from Medicated Wonder Shells

I am not sure of the "2 weird things at the base of its fins" based on the picture or whether these are related to the pop eye which I can see from your pictures.

I would continue your course of action, but note than some causes of pop eye may require a different treatment, such as Erythromycin or even Tetracycline
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#erythromycin
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Pimafix.html#tetracycline

Carl

[supramom2000]

Hi Carl,

The tank is a 20 gallon (the same one you helped me with last spring). The Tetras have been there probably a year? Maybe more? The purigen was not in the canister during medicated shell. Only during regular wonder shell. It hasn't been there for 2 weeks now, as I pulled it when I got new fish 2 weeks ago and put in the medicated wonder shell. I left everything the same when I added 2 more fish this past weekend. The plan was to leave the medicated shell in for 2-3 weeks.

Yesterday I pulled medicated shell and after the 50% water change, Furan and Kanaplex addition, I put in the regular wonder shell. (Purigen still pulled).

The wonder shells for both medicated and regular are the medium size. And I put in the full one, I don't break it up.

I don't have ammonia readings because I somehow lost my ammonia test kit. I have the 5 piece API test kit I ordered from your store. I did a test yesterday and nothing registered as "off". Either nitrates or nitrites registered 1 up from the lowest reading.

As I mentioned above, I still have the ammonia removing product in the filter, the one in the bag with red chips. So hopefully, the ammonia levels are not high. I also added Prime both times I added the fish.

I do use the recommended amount of aquarium salt per gallon. I try to use a little less actually, due to the catfish.

[Carl]

OK, thanks for the info

I would use more salt in the bath; about 1 teaspoon per gallon.

If this treatment regimen including baths is going to be effective, you should see some easing of the pop-eye within 5 day

Is it possible the growths and pop eye was coming on before the introduction of the new fish?

Also I am not clear of the ammonia product you are using, as Ammo-Chips (Zeolite) are more beige in color, could you get a name off the package?

BTW, sorry for the slow responses, I too have been rather ill for the last week.

Carl

[supramom2000]

Carl,

I am sorry to hear you are not feeling well! It is definitely that time of year.

It is very possible the growths and pop eye were there previous to any new fish. I have no way of knowing when it started, other than I didn't notice him not eating until this past Monday.

The product I could not remember the name of is Fluval Clearmax. I have it in the canister filter currently. I only removed the Purigen.

My water parameters were at the highest levels of your 5 in 1 API test for KH, GH and middle for PH. I'm pretty sure we discussed this before when I was battling columnaris. My well water is very hard. We decided not to chase PH, etc. My nitrites were 0, my nitrates were at the middle number. I read this could be due to the Purigen having been removed from the tank for 2 weeks, as well as my hard well water being probably higher in nitrates already.

I use the Seachem Prime, Purigen, Clearmax, a sponge, and some of those Fluval ammonia balls. I also have the UV sterilizer and Wonder Shells at all times. I currently don't have any live plants in there. I will do that next.

Continuing treatments and baths as recommended. Any other suggestions?

[Carl]

OK, thanks for checking the product.

This is where I was confused, as your description did not match any of our ammonia removing products.

We do sell any Hagen/Fluval products and this one in particular is meant for phosphate and nitrate removal.

I definitely would recommend removing this product while treating an aquarium with ANY medication.

From the Aquarium Filter Media (Chemical Treatments section) article at Aquarium Answers
www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/05/aquarium-filter-media.html#chemical

ClearMax uses ferric oxide to control phosphates, which although effective, can be a problem if not removed when treating aquariums, as many medications/treatments can cause the ferric oxide to leech out to toxic levels.

I personally prefer Algone or API Bio Chem Zorb
See:
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Algone.html
www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Filstar.html#biochem

Otherwise continue as you have

Carl