MAJOR disease outbreak!

[goldenpuon]

Tank Size:
Age of the tank:
pH:
Ammonia:
NitrAtes:
nitrites:
GH/KH:
Temperature:
Fish:

1 goldfish and 4 bettas (in seperate tanks)

Symptoms:

The past several days I noticed one of my female bettas (Dot) was clamping her fins and not as active as usual. I thought she had gotten in a fight since her fins were pretty badly torn. I decided to check carefully for aggression amongst them and act from there.

But there was none. However I noticed the fish going to the top for air and Dot seeming worse by the day. I thought it must be an ammonia spike since the fish were acting as though they were having ammonia poisoning (going to the top often). I didn't see anything on them other than my red female had a tuft of cottony stuff on her dorsel fin. Taking a shot in the dark, I added Paraguard to the tank hoping to treat them if there was any problems. I suspected a disease might be there I couldn't see and the cottony stuff was only on that one fish so I decided to treat the biggest problem first.

I kept on testing the water, and changed more of it even though my nitrite and nitrate read 0 every time. I thought that since I was using Prime with every water change, the nitrite and nitrate must not be reading and that it was elevated.

Dot was getting worse and worse and the other 2 were stressing and hanging near the top. I decided last night the best thing to do was to take them out of that tank altogether.

I got two 1 gallon ready with fresh water and cut a piece of out their filter to season the two containers with nitrifying bacteria. I put the 2 sickest bettas (Dot and the red betta) in one container filled with plastic plants from their tank to prevent fighting and the healthiest one Crash in a 1 gallon on here own.

However when I was handling them, I decided to gently lift them with my hands instead of using a net so I wouldn't have to risk getting it contaminated. Dot and the red female were lifted fine but Crash struggled free and fell into the sink. The 1/2 closed stopper on sink caught her and I rushed her into the 1 gallon. She lay on the bottom for a second so I was worried I had injured her for a moment.

At this point, I started looking over the 3 fish with a light for parasites. I checked over Crash 1st and she seemed parasite free. At this point she was swimming around normally.

Then I checked Dot and was shocked to see white spots of ich all over 1 side of her! I know fish with ich often go to the top so I realized that this must be why they were at the top which I mistook for ammonia poisoning. I was surprised I hadn't noticed the ich on her sooner but I had never had a betta with ich before and the spots were exactly the same color as her (she is colored almost purely white).

I added a medicated wondershell to both containers and also a fresh dose of Paraguard (which at this point, I wasn't sure if it was working). But when I went to check on Crash, she was swimming erratically, on her side. Then she fell to the bottom on her side breathing heavily. Just 10 minutes ago she had been fine. I have no idea what could have caused this besides injuries from falling into the sink for a moment.

She died within an hour and I left the other two in the 1 gallon with plants together.

Curious about another male betta that was not acting quite like himself, I checked him out with a light. This betta is 2 years old and is very skinny. She often spits out food and does not eat well. I noticed cottony stuff on his tail.(the reason why he had seemed somewhat sick). I gave him a wonder shell as well and treated him with Nitrafurazone.

It was 10:30 p.m by now so I decided to check the rest of the fish tomorrow. I suspected that if fish seperate areas were sick, I could have more in the house. So I checked this morning over my other 2 bettas, my guppies, and 10 goldfish.

All were fine except Kona, my fattest and in my opinion, one of my healthiest goldfish. She is white with a large orange cap on her head and some of her body. When I looked at her, I saw many of her scales were missing that weren't previously. She was missing the scales where her orange cap was making that area have spaces of white. What's more, she had 2 white things on the top of her, 1 near her head and the other at the font of her dorsal fin. They are white and slightly pointy shaped. They were far too large to be ich but didn't look like anchor worm. My thought is fish lice of something similar. All the other goldfish in the 40 gallon with her didn't have any. She is also acting healthy as far as I can tell.

My problem now is how to treat all these fish.

For the 2 bettas with ich, the Paraguard might not be working. I was treating them with it 1 day before I moved them and during the time I treated them, they seemed to get worse.

Any ideas for other medications I should use for them?

Also, I know their tank is heavily contaminated with ich and also has some saprolegnia (evident by what was growing on the red betta's fin). I am hoping not to have to restart the tank and add them back in after they are cured. Any idea for what I should use to treat the tank while they are out of it?

Also, is Nitrafurazone and a wondershell a good choice for the male betta I mentione before with the saprolegnia eating at his fins?

I also thought I should mention this betta along with 2 others (not Dot and the red betta) have their 1 gallon containers (where they are kept in) in a large plastic tub with a heater. The plastic tub keeps getting food in the water and no matter how often I change it, saprolegnia grows in that water. This is why I think the male got sick with Saprolegnia. Though they are not in direct contact with it, during water changes, the water they are heated in must be getting in contact with their water from my hands. Because of this, I need to buy reptile infrared heating lamps to heat them instead.

Back to the disease treatment, I am unsure how to treat the goldfish Kona. Her case seems mild and I am hesitant to treat the whole 40 gallon tank she is in which was 7 other goldfish. I don't have a quarantine tank open either at the moment. Do the missing scales have anything to do with the 2 parasites on her? Any ideas for how to treat her?

Thanks and sorry for all the questions. I am dealing with a lot here.

Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

Without hopefully being over simplistic, the continued use of the Nitrofurazone with the Medicated Wonder Shell is your best bet for the Betta with Saprolegnia (barring a MB bath which you cannot perform)

As to this container that you heat the water in, consider the use of any product containing Acriflavin such as API Fungus Cure

for your Goldfish, either the use of Potassium Permanganate in the tank or a hospital tank of for more serious infestations (possibly of Flukes I am guessing based on your description), I would consider the use of Clout

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks so much Carl. I will continue to treat the male betta with that.

I know that you are probably very short on time but what is the best thing I can do for the 2 bettas with ich? And also their tank I removed them from.

I'm not sure if they have something else because they are at the top so much. As of now, both are very weak (almost on death's door) and only one is willing to eat.

For the goldfish, I determined the disease to be anchor worm once the worm itself got slightly longer, I swabbed the fish with Potassium Permanganate (which the fish didn't like but it dyed the anchor worm red).

Would you recommend I give it daily baths int Potassium Permanganate and swab the fish? Considering the mildness of the case and my time constraints caused by so many sick fish, I would STRONGLY prefer only to treat this one fish and not the entire tank. Also, do anchor worms reproduce by laying eggs under the fish's skin (I really hope not)?

I'm not sure if the anchor worm would account for the suddenly missing scales as well. The fish has not gone through any handling recently that may have caused that. I haven't seem an anchor worms on other fish but I am nervous that I may have missed one (the anchor worms on this fish are small).

Thanks.

Renee

[Carl]

femalet treatment (and one of the more safe) for Ich is SeaChem ParaGuard.

As to the Anchor Worms, Clout is still the best in tank choice
Here is a picture of Anchor Worms (not a true worm)

Potassium Permanganate is excellent for bath use, but please dilute before swabbing the fish, as use with deep sores should be avoided (MB or Hydrogen Peroxide is better for deep sores).

The female Anchor Worm (actually a copepod) will attach underneath a scale usually deep into the muscle tissue.
The male will then attach himself to the female’s body. The female will produce egg sacs fertilized by the male, which are then released into the water column. The eggs hatch into a free swimming larvae. This is the stage where the offspring will attach to the fish completing the life cycle.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Now there are 5 anchor worms on the fish! I don't have clout on hand. I need to treat the tank I realized. Is Potassium Permananagate still a tank treatment option?

[Carl]

Nov 22, 2009 19:59:36 GMT -5 goldenpuon said:

Now there are 5 anchor worms on the fish! I don't have clout on hand. I need to treat the tank I realized. Is Potassium Permananagate still a tank treatment option?

Yes

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I treated the tank with Potassium Permanganate last night. Immedietly the tank turned a dark purple and I noticed a change in the fish. They were active but acted as if they couldn't see each other (bumping into each other). I figured that they couldn't see through the darkness well, watched them for a little, and went to bed for the night.

This morning I woke up to my my goldfish breathing heavily and 3-4 of them were on the bottom some of the time. The water was now brown. The fishes' nostrils and lips were red (like they were wearing lipstick) and they were breathing heavily. The rest were slow moving and never begged me for food like they normally frantically do each morning. Foneme (one of the weaker fish in the tank) was swimming continually in circles which is normally a sign of shock. I added a triple dose of Prime and changed a good deal of water. I don't know how much I changed because it was an emergency and I changed 3 gallons, added 3, changed 3 more gallons, added 3, etc.

I had to go late to school and watched the fish for 1 1/2 hours afterwards to make sure they were ok. When I left they 6-7 out of 8 were eating and their activity level was going up.

As of now, all are begging me for food and their lips/nostrils are back to normal. Foneme is clamping its fins off and on but seems to be recovering otherwise. The filter carbon is back in but does not seem to be absorbing the Potassium Permanganate for some reason. The water is still a light brown color.

When I gave them medication yesterday, I added 5 capfuls of Potassium Permanganate to the tank assuming that since it said 1 capful per 8 gallon and that 8x5= 40 so I should add 5 capfuls. I don't know what went wrong with the dosage. I know when I added it, some spilled but I don't think I did it inside the tank or added more than 5 capfuls despite the distraction and mess.

I'm assuming what went wrong was the medication poisoned them somehow or took all the oxygen out of the water and that was why they were affected but I'm really not sure.

The addition of the carbon back into the AquaClear HOB filter hasn't seemed to take the Potassium Permanganate out of the water. I am wondering if I need to do another water change to get it out?

And most importantly, should I discontinue the treatment since it had such a drastic effect on my fish? The worms appear to be gone from my fish Kona.

Speaking of anchor worms, they were never over 1/8 of an inch long and all 5 were on top of the fish between the head and dorsal fin. When I looked at the picture you posted of anchor worms, the ones on my fish were much smaller and shorter. I'm not sure if they are another kind of fluke. Does it sound like it?

-----------

I'm also continuing to treat the 2 female bettas with Paraguard and medicated wondershells. However, they both don't seem much better although both ate this morning. Both are on the top taking in air frequently, and are extremely weak.

I haven't treated the actual tank yet the fish were in previously because I want to be sure that what I am treating the fish with is affective before I add something to the tank. Another words, I don't want to add the fish later to the tank (actually a 4 gallon container) only for them to get reinfected.

[fishfever]

What brand/solution strength are you using? You want to be careful not to OD as some fish are sensitive (I found out tetras can be) although if this is the Kordon's product the 1 cap per 8 gallons seems to be about right. I have never used it in the tank (only baths) and I give it credit for fully healing a platy that had columnaris using twice daily baths for several weeks. The pinkish-purplish color is normal and will turn brownish (sometimes with precipitate) as the DOC's in your tank are reduced. I would think you would want to do a fairly substantial water change to get rid of most of the brown stuff after the PP has done it's thing (although at this point the PP is probably not active) but as I said I only used it in baths and threw the brownish water out after 1/2 hour.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks. I have only used it in baths as well before this point. I am using Korden's Pond Peroxyn, a 3.84% solution. The main picture on the bottle is of a koi (a close relative of the goldfish) so I'd imagine (if the picture is correct), that this is made for goldfish and koi. I have not heard that goldfish are sensitive to Potassium Permanganate but they may be.

I noticed that the fish's breathing is still elevated though they aren't stressing. I am going to change out 2-3 more gallons tonight just in case it is still causing them trouble. Of course, they still may be breathing a bit rapid because they are still recovering or perhaps all of the oxygen in the water isn't back yet. What I can say is that I have plenty of aeration in the tank. I have an AquaClear filter (which creates a lot of bubbles) a Hydro #1 Sponge filter in there, and a bubble wand.

[Carl]

Fishfever already answered this question, so I will only add that Potassium Permanganate being an oxidizer that breaks down rapidly, will go from red to brown at different rates depending upon DOC and Redox. Once brown the Potassium Permanganate is exhausted.

The only danger once brown is oxygen depletion which you already addressed.

ANY dechlorinator (which are also Redox reducers) will IMMEDIATELY remove Potassium Permanganate. In fact I note this in the section about Potassium Permanganate here:
Aquarium Medications 3; Chemical Treatments, Potassium Permanganate

Because of this, use with Prime or any dechlorinator during the critical first hours of treatment should be avoided, otherwise the treatment would be voided immediately

Carl

[goldenpuon]

I knew that I was getting rid of the Potassium Permanganate when I put the triple dose of Prime into my water. I apologize for doing this considering it made the treatment basically useless.

However, I felt the situation was desperate. I was afraid I would lose the whole tank if I left them like that (several on the bottom breathing). The Potassium Permanganate was in there just 8 hours before I got up and saw the fish inactive and on the bottom.

The anchor worms (if they were considering their small size) are no longer on the goldfish Kona or any other fish. I am monitoring the fish closely and if I see any signs of anchor worm I will treat again. What happened yesterday was quite a scare and after that I don't want to medicate them again unless really needed. I am aware that I should have completed the full treatment, however I don't feel that it is best that I do that now. So my apologies for not following through with it again.

Renee

[goldenpuon]

For an update on the bettas, I finally finished their treatment with Paraguard today. Both are still at the top and weak but I don't see any white spots anymore and I have treated them over a week so it should be gone.

But on another negative note, when I examined the weaker one (Dot) today, I noticed many tiny holes in her head. On the other fish I did not see that. I am 80% sure these are not natural indentations. I do not know much about the disease so I will be reading up on Carl's article about it.

But what still baffles/concerns me is why the bettas stay at the top all the time and take in air frequently. Dot (not as much the other) clamps her fins as well.

What could be causing this? Her staying at the top and being so weak.

Obviously the wondershell and Paraguard didn't help that. (The medicated wonder shell is still in there.) At first I thought it was from the ich but now that it appears to be gone, I am searching for a reason. I don't know if this is associated with hole-in-the-head or if she was another thing as well.

Also, the fish that isn't as weak still has that tuft of cotton on her fin although smaller now. I am not too worried about that. All it did is eat at her fin slightly and is not spreading. I will treat that after I get the other more severe problems under control but I just thought I'd mention it's still there.

[goldenpuon]

I'm not sure if anyone read my last post on here. The one above this one. Sorry to rush you guys to respond with this. However, I'm really worried about my 2 bettas.

[Carl]

Sorry this post did not come up as unread?

Anyway, your fish remaining at the top and taking in air frequently is generally a sign of poor gill health and /or poor blood oxygen levels.

In all honesty there may not be much that can be done for this.

Although the minerals in the Wonder Shells can help with osmoregulation, this likely will not be a enough. ParaGuard has nothing medicinally to help this problem at all other than killing any parasites in the gills (such as Velvet, which the Medicated Wonder Shells help with this as well). I should also note I seriously doubt Velvet based on the symptoms.

As to the gills, often the gills can be damaged "beyond repair" from parasites and ammonia poisoning. The results of either be scar tissue that further exasperates the problem.

As for blood oxygen, this can be as a result of a weak circulatory system (although Magnesium can help, but since you already added Wonder Shells this is doubtful the solution).
As well low oxygen levels can be the result of poor gill function (as noted earlier), poor kidney function or possibly other factors.

I know that you are not allowed to use Methylene Blue, but I would failing to tell others that might read this thread some of the possible options and since Methylene Blue is a proven hemoglobin transfer agent (& therefore blood oxygen), this could be quite helpful even if only temporary.
I would avoid the use of strong oxidizers such as Potassium Permanganate as this would likely only add to this problem.
As well avoid antibiotics such as Tetracycline that lowers red blood cell counts in fish.

The best suggestion I have based on what you can do is to simply keep your tank clean, ammonia/nitrites at 0, & mineral cations up and keep an eye out for other issues.

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl. I looked at your HITH article as well.

My concern is what caused this in the 1st place. She showed up 1 day with torn fins and she has been like this since then. There wasn't any visible aggression in the tank when this happned either.

There were no nitrite or ammonia spikes I could see when this first happened but the other fish acted strange also and went to the top clamping their fins. But then again, I was using Prime when this happened so ammonia and nitrite may not have read on the test strip. But yet again, there wasn't a large amount of mulm or anything I was doing differently cleaning wise to cause this.

Do you suspect the small holes (which may or may not be HITH) be causing this? Is sticking near the top a sign of HITH disease?

Thanks.

Renee

[kagome]

Renee,
Unfortunately I can't really offer any additional help when it comes to the fish illness, I can tell you that even if you are using Prime that ammonia will register on your test strips. How Prime makes ammonia tests inaccurate is that ammonia tests do not distinguish between free ammonia and total ammonia. Prime can't actually 'eliminate' ammonia, it can only chemically bind it in a much less toxic form. Therefore it still shows up on the test. Here's an analogy (albeit a silly one) that might help make sense out of that. Lets say a team of 10 ninjas broke into my house and as they were terrorizing me you called and asked me how many ninjas were in my house and I told you 10. Then by some miracle I disarmed the ninjas and tied them all up in the basement. At this point you call me back and ask how many ninjas I have in my house, and I tell you there are still 10. Although there are still 10 in my house, they have been disarmed and aren't so dangerous anymore. It's the same thing with Prime, it 'disarms' the ammonia but doesn't actually make it disappear. So, if your tests were showing no ammonia, then you had no ammonia in your tank.

I'm really sorry that you've been having so much trouble with your fish. I hope they get better soon.

[goldenpuon]

Thank Kagome fopr explaining about the Prime. However, whenever I use Prime, the nitrite and nitrate also always test 0 and normally without Prime, my nitrate is naturally around 10. Does it not block the reading of nitrite and nitrate too?

Dot seems a little better this morning. She actually not clamped her fins and begged for food. But she is still staying at the top. The other fish in with her seems to be doing a lot better than her although she still goes to the top more than she should in my opinion.

Since ALL the fish started acting strange at the time Dot started going to the top before I moved them all out of their main tank, I wonder if it is some kind of poisoning. Just making another shot in the dark as causes for all of this.

[Carl]

Kagome, I loved your analogy of how Prime works (or Amquel Plus as it works the same way)! ;D

May I borrow it sometime?

Renee; although I cannot say what caused this problem with your fish with any certainty, I can say that it is not HITH as the symptoms are not correct and the timing of the onset is not right (but I do congratulate you for digging deeper).

I would still have to guess at gill damage, kidney damage, a sudden undetected spike in ammonia (although not likely based on your comments), or simply over all genetic weakness or even
a combination of all.

Carl

[fishfever]

That was very funny kagome but it is also a good analogy. When I first got started this free ammonia versus total ammonia really was confusing because although I was using Prime I was still measuring the same amount of ammonia after using Prime so I kept adding it beyond the recommended dose and more frequently than recommended. However I discovered one thing that does measure the free (bad for fish) component and that is the Seachem Ammonia Alert which I found indispensible when I was cycling or recycling. It couldn't be easier to use; just attach to a tank wall using the suction cup. If the center shows bright yellow (there is a color wheel showing various levels of ammonia to match up) there is no free ammonia present. I have one for most tanks and put it next to the thermometer so I can read both free ammonia and temp with one glance.

goldenpuon, I don't know what is plaguing your fish but I wish you luck trying to solve it.. hopefully this is something that is fixable but if not you certainly shouldn't feel bad since you have done everything you can.

[goldenpuon]

Thanks Carl. I will keep both of the fish in the 1 gallon (or 2 seperate 1 gallons if it is for much longer) until they recover more.

I know I may be overanalyzing this but Dot (the weaker fish) has a white region (seemly unscaled) on the top of her head. For a long time, I thought it was just her coloration (plus she is a white fish). I'm not sure if it's an different now, maybe a little more noticable but I wonder if it could cause any of this. Maybe a tumor though I doubt it...

For the tank they were in that has no fish in it (but still running), would you recommend I add them straight back in when I feel like they are healthy enough to go out of quarantine? Or should I do a large water change first or medicate the tank?

If memory serves, you said earlier that it didn't sound like they had ich in the 1st place although don't quote me on it. But to be cautious, I feel like I might need to treat the tank with Paraguard but I am not sure if I should or not.

When I took the fish out, I had been treating them with Paraguard for two days. After I took them out, I stopped treating the tank with Paraguard and just treated the fish in isolation.

I might also add that the fish are quite old. Dot I have had about 1 1/2 years roughly since I bought her and the red fish is 2 years old and 3 or 4 months old.