Dropsey in my dwarf gouramis

[DaharkazAngel]

Tank Size: 100 gals
Age of the tank: 6 months max (had a established 40 gal before)
pH: 7.2
Ammonia: 0
NitrAtes: 0
nitrites: 0
GH/KH:
Temperature: 26
Fish:

7 Angelfish
4 female swordtails
2 dwarf gouramis
9 neons, 9 rummnose, 5 black neons
2 Bristlnose catfish
2 clown loaches
1 red tail black shark.
6 corys.
4 Khulis
(all my fish are not adults, especially Angels, loaches, shark.)

Symptoms:

My gouramis definately have dropsey. Theyve been bloated 2 weeks max....i tried starving them thinking they were just fat. Stopped eating 2 days ago, white poop. Listless, having trouble breathing, dont move except for going up for 'air'. Never had this before so have NOT caught it early. Only two fish effected are 2 gouramis. Bought same time, same shop.

My Q, is im getting mixed reveiws on this. Do i treat or not?? Is it contagious. Some say yes others say no. HELP. As of a hour ago one is 'pine coning' as i said i did not catch it early.

25% water changes once or twice a week. Syphon EVERY time. Filter cleaned monthy sometimes more. 800 litres per hour internal 'otto' brand.

(had a 40 gal before this for 2 years with no problems but ich, since i set up this 100 gal ive had nothing but new fish and new problems.)


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s293.photobucket.com/albums/mm78/Daharkazangel/?action=view¤t=DSC01283.jpg

I have the two fish in a breeder. Here are my options as such (after reading other peoples reviews). Kill these fish treat the tank anyway. Kill the fish dont treat. Dont kill the fish and treat with macyron two (spelling??) What do i do?? Confused ?? HELP

[DaharkazAngel]

I think i know whats caused this (as a guess). My food i feed my fish is HIGH in protein, like 46%. Its hiraki cihlid gold floating and sinking pellets. I use these as i had cichlids AGES ago and since then have Angels. I however did take into consideration the gouramis and tetras that are Vegetatrian!! That and my tap water is pretty plain, so i could be missing vitial minerals such as calcuim. I dont test for gh and kh but im now thinking i should.

Remeber that loach that was sick?? Well no fish are ill but these two gouramis, could this be connected??? Carl help youve helped me a bit in the last week!

[DaharkazAngel]

Opps 20 ppm....mis typed lol.

[Carl]

I am not totally convinced your fish have dropsy as I do not see the classic pine-coning of the fish (extended scales).

This could be bloating caused by fluid retention or air.

Either way a bath with salt and Methylene Blue is a must! The addition of Kanamycin in this bath is also recommended

For more about dropsy, please see this article:
Aquarium Answers; Dropsy

Fish food and how you feed can play a role in both bloating and dropsy

Soaking dry foods for 5 minutes in freshwater prior to feeding is a good idea for prevention (& aid in treatment)

I should also note that Gouramis and Tetras are not vegetarians, rather in most cases omnivores, so a balanced diet is best (I recommend Spirulina as part of this diet).

See this article about fish nutrition:
Fish Nutrition

If your fish do have Dropsy, please note that cure is often very difficult.

Carl

[fishfever]

I heard dropsy may be slightly contagious but even if it isn't it's probably best to isolate the fish so you can observe and treat them better. (It's also far more economical to treat a small hospital tank plus if you are going to you stronger meds you may not want to expose your main tank/other fish to them - alot of meds will also kill off your beneficial bacteria). You may want to add a small amount of Epson salt with the salt bath/MB to help remove the fluid buildup.

I agree with you that a GH/KH test kit would be helpful if you don't know how your water measures up. My tap water is soft and acidic so without Wonder shells and pH buffer I would have practically no trace minerals or buffering capacity - they are the lowest readings possible on the test kit. Ever since I have been using the shells and pH buffer I get very consistent readings (GH-hard, KH-ideal). If you have time when you read the Dropsy article click on the link about GH/KH.

I have one comment on the filter cleaning frequency also. I used to clean my filters about once per month also but have adjusted the schedule based on filter performance. Because some months there is more organic waste, perhaps more overfeeding (especially with more than one person feeding), stock changes, etc. I don't think a fixed schedule is ideal. So now I look at the throughput after a cleaning as a reference which is probably close to the specified flow rate by the manufacturer. You have a certain gpm and based on tank size a certain turnover rate. But as your filter gets clogged up this has to drop. I have a Via Aqua Vitalife HOB I bought from Carl's store which is a superb filter in many ways (I won't go into that here but it blows away the OEM HOB filter that came with the tank). After a cleaning the flow is so strong I can feel the pulsating water at the front of the tank and the wave front is very deep into the tank. But after several weeks of filtering naturally the flow drops as passages get build-up, the cartridge and lava rocks accumulate scum, prefilter sponge accumulate particles, etc., depending on the tank load during that time. So you are no longer getting the manufacturer's rated GPM and X turnover but some fraction of that. This conceivably could happen before your periodic filter cleaning. So now when I decide whether to clean the filter (which is generally a full breakdown) I don't look at how long it's been since the last cleaning but rather how far the filter performance has dropped off based on the observable flow rate. It might not be as easy to determine performance parameters for some other types of filters. Sorry to be so wordy and didn't know I had a chapter inside of me until I started typing. LOL

[DaharkazAngel]

They are both pine coning, definately. I dont have spare tank.

[goldenpuon]

Personally, I have had dropsy in my fish on a few occasions and I have not found it to be contagious in my experience. Of course if it is contagious to other fish depends on what the cause is. Dropsy is not a disease really, more like a symtom with many possible causes.

One is as Carl mentioned, not soaking food is a great way to prevent a fish from developing dropsy. If your fish with dropsy are still eating, feeding it Neomcyin. I may help (although I'm not positive) .

A bath in with aquarium or epsom salt and with methyline blue will also help. But from what I've heard dropsy is extremel] difficult to treat. So be aware that these treatments may or may cure the fish. But don't give up, dropsy is not impossible to treat. With some luck, your fish may recover. Best of luck Angel!

Renee

[bikeguy33]

lots of great advice here....but may i add....you mentioned these fish were both bought at the same time. i suspect these fish were infected when they were perch-ased (fish joke). to coincidental to be same breed and purchased at the same time. this being said....don`t beat yourself up over this one no matter what happens.

[DaharkazAngel]

I bought some tablets guys. There Tetracycline tablets. I put the two gouramis in my betta tank and put my betta in the unstable 10 gal i set up the other day (i weighed the odds up guys). I add salt, 1 tablesppon, aquarium. I also added one tablet. Removed carbon and are now corssing fingers. The fish hasnt eaten for about 3-4 days now and there poo comes out like a home made sausage without enough filling, nothing then oh a little mini sauseage then nothing again. And its all white. Im debating whether to do a Mb and sat bath, they are very stressed and derteriorating quick. Im upset i didnt treat earlier but ive learnt a lesson i guess. And bikeguy, your righ it is suss that there the only two fish and i bought them together so im trying not to beat myself up to much. Thanks for the help so far. The tablets i got are all i could get my mitts on...there not much of a range here where i live.

[DaharkazAngel]

After replying to your comments i decided to do a bath for 30 mins in MB and aquarium salt. I mean whats the worst it could do right? There both in there now.

[DaharkazAngel]

Lost one of the gouramis last nighti and the other one is declineing. Dont think ill win this one =(

[bikeguy33]

don`t give up and good luck.

[DaharkazAngel]

Thanks, The other looks worse in the few hours between these posts. I dont think he will make the night. Im not too beat up tho as im 100% sure they were in trouble when i bought them. Wont be adding ANY new fish without quarenten from now one. Ill keep my bettas 10 gal 'free' (except for him, i still dont like him lol) and if/when i get a new fish ill put the betta in a breeder in my other 10 gal untill i know the new fish is ok. Just out of curiosity how long do you quarenten new fish for. I heard 4 weeks but that sounds like quite a while. Anyway all in all in the past 6 months (from setting up my 100 gal) Ive learnt quarenten is a MUST. Ive had more issues in the last 6 months then i have in the few years ive been keeping fish. I somehow think my Lps is a unreliable source too. And i should mention meds are HARD to find in this place. So with that said...im a changed person lol. Angel

[Carl]

Jul 11, 2009 23:31:42 GMT -5 DaharkazAngel said:

Im not too beat up tho as im 100% sure they were in trouble when i bought them. Wont be adding ANY new fish without quarenten from now one.

This is a good point, you may have purchased these fish already sick (such as an internal Aeromonas infection based on the symptoms)

And i should mention meds are HARD to find in this place. So with that said...im a changed person lol. Angel

You might consider stocking some meds ahead of time as per the suggestions on the; Aquarium Disease Prevention Article.

It is also noteworthy in the treatment of fish, that when ever a medication shows no effectiveness, it is quite likely that the wrong medication is being used (even we have feel we have diagnosed correctly). See this article about this key point:
Aquarium Medications: Change Medications when ineffective

It is also important to note (& I understand the difficulty in finding meds there), that Tetracycline is not very effective for gram negative aquatic bacterial infections, which constitute 75% or more of common bacterial infections in aquariums. Tetracycline is more effective for gram positive infections such as Streptococcus

Anyway, sorry that you are having these difficulties and I hope your future purchases are more healthy for you Angel.

[bikeguy33]

and angel...may i add...Carl sells all the meds you need on line. most of us who have purchased from him would agree that even after delivery, we are getting a much much better deal from him...and his turn around is FAST. Just something to consider....

[fishfever]

I hope your gourami makes it but since you've seen the pine coning and the other one didn't make it already it may be too late. That said, certainly you still want to do everything you possibly can to save it.

I have started to quarantine any new fish now for at least a week or more; longer if I see anything that looks abnormal as the last thing I want to do is introduce new problems into my tanks. Lately I am also dropping in a small medicated Wonder shell in the small quarrantine tank just in case...

Even in the states some meds are hard to come by. For example, only 1 of the 3 major LFS's in our area had MB and that one bottle was probably sitting on the shelf forever. It started leaking immediately when I started using it and they haven't bothered to re-stock it months after I bought it so I haven't been able to exchange it. I finally bought a new bottle from Carl and it was probably half the price of the LFS to boot. In fact I found out about this board from Carl and I found his shop while looking online for the cheapest aquarium supplies. ;-) And I wouldn't worry about damaged shipments even with liquid meds as his store packs the stuff better than any online store I've run across.

[Carl]

Thanks bikeguy and fishfever, your kind words about my business and how I conduct it (such as wrapping liquids meds) mean much to me!


I appreciate the feedback and the promotion, especially since I operate on a razor thin profit margin, I need as much volume as possible.

Carl

[DaharkazAngel]

Just thought id do a quick update on my dropsey gourami. Its still fat and scales are pointy but it does 'seem' more energetic. However my main concern (aside from the brown froth on the tank from meds) is it hasnt eaten in.....i dunno a week maybe more. Ive tried feeding flakes to no avail, i think after the baths as of late the poor thing just wants some peace!! So he/she..it is still ALIVE yay, theres a glimmer of hope yet...but i know too well a fish strugg;es after a week of no food. I guess time will tell....Thanks everyone for your kind words, much appreciated. Angel