Question on Furan 2 / Kanaplex

[stix0504]

Tank Size: 55 / 46 / 28
Age of the tank: 4 years
pH: 7.5
Ammonia: 0
NitrAtes: 0
nitrites: 0
GH/KH: 150/180
Temperature: 78
Fish:

55 Gallon has 3 Goldfish & one pleco, 46 gallon has 4 medium orandas and a pleco, 30 gallon has 2 Ryunkin and one tiny pleco,

Symptoms:

My fish have developed a white, hazy, fuzzy look across their dorsal fins (saddleback?) and one (my oldest fish) has bleeding developing on his belly. One of my orandas has also developed brown spots that are going up one side of his body in addition to the white. All fish are exhibiting the whitish covering as well as some shimmying and bottom sitting.

I have been treating with furan2 and it has gotten a little better but after the treatments it isn't cured so I have started a second round.

I read on your site that you can use furan2 and kanamycin together. I ordered kanaplex yesterday which is arriving today and I just want to verify that it is full doses of both meds at the same time, correct?

I do weekly water changes and tank readings as well.

Your help is appreciated greatly.

[Carl]

Yes, both medications can be used together.

As well I recommend a bath with Methylene Blue and salt to which Kanacyn can also be added. You can also add a drop or swab of Methylene Blue to the sores.

See this article for more: Columnaris

for more about baths: Aquarium Disease; Baths/Dips

Good luck and welcome to EA

Carl

[stix0504]

Thank you! One more question for you.....The fish below is the one with the brown spots. None of the others have these spots. Is this still the same thing as the others? Maybe just a worse case of it? Looking at the picture (I know it is hard to see), you will see in between the spot on his gill and the larger brown spot in the center, if you look up just a little on the skin is the white patch which is starting to erode. The brown spots have also moved all the way around his face and on his cap, but not to the other side of his body.



Very bothering to me that I can't seem to get something that works with him. He just keeps getting worse.

[Carl]

He may have other problems as well.
Parasites can cause sores such as these, although this is more common to anchor worms and I do not see any signs of them on this fish.
Bacterium such as Columnaris can also exhibit discoloring such as this.

The gravel appears to have some growths in it as well, do you vacuum your gravel and if so how often is this done.

I might also suggest the use of salt in your water as this can be helpful assuming you have a Columnaris infection in your tank.

I might also suggest soaking all dry foods for at least 5 minutes prior to feeding as this can prevent gas in the intestines that can lead to internal bacterial infections caused by Aeromonas.

Following as many steps as possible in this article may be helpful as well:
Aquarium Disease Prevention
The reason is that many bacterium are opportunistic and even with the correct medications, these medications can be useless if water conditions or related factors affecting the fish health are less than ideal.

Carl

[stix0504]

I vacuum the gravel with each water change (once a week) doing one half one week and the other half of gravel the following week. I have had salt in the tanks for approximately one week at the rate of 1 TB per 5 gallon of water.

This fish in particular has always been a fish that would hang at the top of the tank. I have had him for about 1 1/2 years. I feed all of them pellets that are slow sinking granules. I will try soaking them tomorrow at their next feeding.

I tried to get a picture of my other fish with the saddleback symptoms but they swim much too fast for my camera and just blurred out.

I don't have any MB so I went ahead and added the Kanaplex until I can get to the store tomorrow morning.

I just want to take this time to thank you for the wealth of information on your site. I have searched for a long time and just ran across this site today. It is really great.

Hopefully I will see some improvement tomorrow...


Edited to add that I also run UV Filters. Of course, these haven't been used during the problems.

[bikeguy33]

are you treating this tank as a hospital?i missed the size, but it is alot less costly to set up a "hospital " to look after them. they can be a lil more crowded temporarily in a smaller tank for medicating purposes....plus temp etc can be more quickly altered...

[stix0504]

The tank that this particular fish is in is a 46 gallon. My tank that I would normally use is only a small 6 gallon tank so I opted to treat them in their normal tank even though it definitely is more costly.

This morning he looks the same as yesterday with the exception that the spots are a tad larger. He did come up to eat a tiny bit (I have been feeding antibiotic food for 3 days now) so that is encouraging. I plan on running up to the pet store when they open to get methylene blue for a bath for him.

I have never done a bath before so the task is a little daunting. I watched the video online so hopefully things will go smoothly and it will help him. The only trick will be trying to get him out of the tank because he currently is sitting inside this large log in the tank.

On a brighter note, the other 3 orandas in that tank look much better today than they have been looking. They are swimming all around and their dorsal fins are not drooping like they have been. So I think I am making progress.

[fishfever]

I've been bathing my platy for Columnaris for about 3 weeks (see thread in this forum). I'm doing a morning/evening twice a day with Potassium Permanganate/salt and swabbing the white patch with MB after the morning bath. I'm also treating the tank with Pimafix, either daily or every other day. This isn't a faster, aggressive treatment without medications like you are doing but the large white patch is now just a thin streak. I use PP in the bath since I think Carl said it is slightly preferrable to MB in this application. If you are using just MB you could probably swab before the bath instead of after to get a bit of extra MB in the bath (PP and MB should not mix).

Since I've now done dozens of baths, I've discovered a few things that makes the job easier:

1. Always spread out an absorbent mat around the tank before doing anything to catch drips (and especially MB, ***IT REALLY STAINS IF IT GETS ON ANYTHING ***). Gloves are good too to avoid the blue finger syndrome!

2. Premixing the salt with tank water in a large container saves time if you plan to give a number of baths. You could probably premix the MB also (not sure) but would not mix
Potassium Permanganate since it reacts with tank water (I think it removes dissolved organic compounds in the tank water). I use an eyedropper to get the proper fraction of a teaspoon to gallon ratio for the PP in the small bath container or double bag (it's not a perfect ratio but it's consistent).

3. If possible, give your bath in a container or double bags within the tank. This way the bath stays heated to the same temperature as the tank and if the fish jump they just jump into the tank. I fill my bath container or double bags just enough so they still float and the buoyancy pushes the container up against the rim and top cover, keeping it from trying to flip over. If you overfill the bath container will sink. Remember to float the bath container or bags in your tank long enough to equalize temperatures.

4. Since I have to give twice daily baths, I leave the fish in a small breeder net (about 6"x6"x4") overnight after the evening bath which I do just before I shut the tank light out and go to bed. This saves me from having to catch the fish for the morning bath, i.e. only have to catch her once a day for the evening bath.

Once you start doing a few it will be easier. Hope this helps!

[stix0504]

Thank you very much for those tips! I just called our pet store and, of course they do not carry either med. So that leaves ordering online and getting it shipped overnight. Sigh...that's what I get for living in a small town I suppose. I will keep you guys posted.

[Carl]

I am glad to read that at least some fish are making progress, please keep in mind that often with the best of care and the best of conditions, some fish simply cannot be saved.

Fishfever added some great tips for the use of Methylene Blue.
These baths (& even direct swabs) of MB can really help boost the effectiveness of your Kanplex/Furan 2 treatment.

The UV is best off while using an antibiotic, water changes between each treatment can also boost effectiveness, in part by improving Redox and adding some trace mineral cations. Use of Wonder Shells or any other method that adds these cations on a constant basis also can help in fish immunity.

Carl

[fishfever]

Something else I recall doing is upping the salt in the main tank from the typical 1 tbsp per 5 gallons to more like 1.5 to 2 tbsp gallon on a temporary basis. Since I've seen improvement, I've been gradually ramping that back to 1 tbsp per 5 gallons by just adding less salt on the water changes (have catfish and tetras that probably prefer less salt longer term). Also IF this is Columnaris, it seems to be one of the few diseases where the recommended treatment is to DROP the temperature versus raising it. I've got my heater at the minimum setting and the tank temperature has stabilized about 3 degrees lower than normal (around 76.5).

[stix0504]

Thanks fishfever for your help, too.

Brief update. Last night the orange Oranda (Peanut) was getting significantly worse while the others were getting significantly better. Because of that, I moved him to my small hospital tank (and also because the pleco was becoming a little too interested in him).

I gave him the bath and am not happy to report that he hasn't made any improvements other than the brown spots on him are almost completely gone after the bath. He is a very sick little guy.

Am I holding out hope and am wondering if I am to only do the bath 1 time in his condition or if there is anything else I can do. He has kanamycin, furan 2 and salt currently.

Thanks everyone for you help....

[stix0504]

Peanut just died.....I'm sooooo sad. The other 3 orandas appear to be well on the road to recovery and so does my oldest goldfish (another tank - the one with the bleeding belly). Thanks everyone for your advice and tips. I wish I had known what to do earlier but we all learn as we go.

Thanks.....

[murdock6701]

sorry Nancy......I am not much help in curing fish of complex problems like Carl so sorry I haven't been any help, but I do offer my condolences.....

[fishfever]

Sorry your fish didn't make it but you did your best... I think Carl said Kanamycin and Furan 2 are two of the strongest meds and you used them together. And I strongly agree with him that it's much easier to to focus on disease prevention to keep problems from happening in the first place because often it's so hard to change the course with lots of fish diseases, especially advanced stages (where we often first notice something is very wrong).

[Carl]

Sorry Nancy that Peanut died.

If this means anything, I really think there was not much you could have done for Peanut (sorry if I am out of line saying this, but I do not want you have any "what if" questions).

However I am happy to read that the others are recovering!

Carl

[goldenpuon]

Sorry that Peanut died. I know you did the best you could for her. I'm glad the other 3 are doing better. R.I.P. Peanut...

[stix0504]

Thank you all. Carl, you aren't out of line and that definitely makes me feel better because I always do the 'what ifs' after I lose one. Its always tough when you lose one. I appreciate all your kind words.

If I get some time later today I will try to post some pics of my all my fish so you guys can see them.