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Mar 18, 2009 11:22:51 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 11:22:51 GMT -5
Tank Size: 90 Age of the tank: 18 months pH: 8.0 Ammonia: 0 NitrAtes: 20 or less nitrites: 0 GH/KH: 18/13 Temperature: 78-79 Fish: Symptoms: Ok, I am a little concerned. As you guys know I lost a lithobate about a week ago…well, I have now also lost 3 of my “fires”. These 2 species of fish are the newest additions to the tank. I got them back in the beginning of January. All the other fish have been there since October and before. Everyone else seems to be doing fine but I think it is obvious something is going on. I will get REALLY worried if the ones who have been in there longer start dropping. I am 99% sure this is not an aggression issue, nor is it water quality as I have been testing my water since this has been going on and it is good. They all show the same signs (other then the hole the lithobate had)…They stop eating and then they tend to hang at the surface in a near vertical position. They don’t always hang there though they will also swim around and seem fine. There breathing never seems odd. I don’t know what I should do…Is there some broad spectrum treatment I could use that won’t affect my beneficial bacteria? Should I even go this far? One more thing, I have lately had 3 different females holding but all of them spit or swallowed without holding to term…Even my mama peacock who always holds. This also leads me to believe there is something going on in my tank.
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Mar 18, 2009 11:43:42 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2009 11:43:42 GMT -5
Unfortunately by definition, a broad spectrum treatment will hurt your beneficial bacteria. Considerations (if it comes to this) are Kanamycin and Nitrofuracyn or Kanamycin and Erythromycin (this combination will take out your bio filter, so having back up seasoned media elsewhere is a must). Can you refresh my memory as to your filters? As well are the source for these "newbies" the same? Carl
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Mar 18, 2009 11:54:13 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 11:54:13 GMT -5
I am running 2 AC 500’s and the #5 pro sponge filter connected to an air pump connected thru the UV sterilizer. I should have plenty of filtration and water flow.
Yes. My thought is maybe being stressed thru the shipping process they are more prone to pick something up.
I have also spoken with the source for these fish to see if they have had anything going on with these species and they have not. I know they would be honest if they had been having problems as well.
When do I know if I need to make a decision to treat the tank??
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Mar 18, 2009 12:24:11 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2009 12:24:11 GMT -5
I am running 2 AC 500’s and the #5 pro sponge filter connected to an air pump connected thru the UV sterilizer. I should have plenty of filtration and water flow. Do you mean a water pump from the Sponge Filter? What is your filter media in the AC500s? How often is it rinsed and changed, & if changed what do you change? They well may not be having a problem, as I quarantined my fish before bringing them out to clients, only to see new fish that had held for some time and treated as a precaution before taking out go on to die. Shipping can be the issue, as can be adapting to the tank or even stress from tank mates (often when the lights go out). One thought is to always check pH, ammonia, nitrite of the bag immediately upon opening the bag so as to know these parameters and deal with the differences accordingly (such as slow drip time for pH adjustment, Methylene Blue for ammonia, etc.). If the differences are extreme such as very high ammonia or a very low pH (such as 6.5), the introduction can be very difficult even with the best of care. I also place a Wonder Shell fragment in the bag while acclimating so as to add important mineral cations that can improve osmoregulation (shipping with these fragments helps all the more) This is a tough call Brenda, my best guess opinion (key word is opinion) is to go ahead with something this harsh only if long time residents of your aquarium succumb to this problem. As well, I would prefer to rule out ALL other possibilities before such a coarse of action. Carl
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Mar 18, 2009 12:30:03 GMT -5
Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 18, 2009 12:30:03 GMT -5
Brenda....you mentioned a hole in one of these fish....can you describe it....and better yet, if you have a pic of it that would be great....
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Mar 18, 2009 13:00:20 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 13:00:20 GMT -5
There is a pic on the lithobate not eating thread...2nd page. sorry, I couldn't move it to this thread right now.
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Mar 18, 2009 13:13:44 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 13:13:44 GMT -5
Yes, sorry Carl. I meant water pump.
The filter media is the same in both…The big sponges that they come with, a small layer of filter fiber???, and the ceramic bio-rings. I rinse the filters every week or 2 at most and I don’t rinse the filters all at the same time. I don’t change the big sponge filters very often as they stay pretty good by just rinsing. I would say I actually replace the filter every 6 months or so. I can’t remember when the last time was exactly so it may have been a little longer. I have never replaced the ceramic rings, I just occasionally rinse them. Is this wrong or should I be doing something else?
As far as treating the tank…I was thinking the same thing Carl, because I will know it is something serious if I lose any of the long time residents.
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Mar 18, 2009 13:29:56 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2009 13:29:56 GMT -5
I think your filter cleaning methods are fine.
Do your ceramic bio rings have any type of slime build up?
If so, they should be changed (in steps so as to not interupt your bio filtration)
Carl
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Mar 18, 2009 13:38:02 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2009 13:38:02 GMT -5
I went and looked at your lithobate picture as well.
What were his symptoms in the 24-48 hours before dying?
This appeared bacterial, but I did not see an active Columnaris infection, but that does not mean it was not there (especially internally). However this is generally opportunistic, which still leads us back to acclimation as a risk factor.
The other thought is an internal trematode, but this hole did not look typical of such a parasite. But that does not mean this was not the case as well, as a trematode can kill a fish very quickly.
I honestly am not sure, so I will think on this aspect of what the "hole" may have played or whether it was simply a symptom of a weak fish succumbing to opportunistic bacteria.
Maybe Bill or others might have a good idea.
Carl
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Mar 18, 2009 13:54:34 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 13:54:34 GMT -5
Well, the lithobates first symptoms were not eating and hanging near the surface in that near vertical position. I used a medicated wonder shell and he started eating a little again, but then the hole appeared. That was about a weeks time. Then after the hole appeared it was about another week before he actually died. 24-48hrs before he was just sitting at the bottom of the tank and I knew he wasn¡¦t going to make it. The fires did not do that, and did not last as long. They stopped eating did the vertical position at top of tank and then I found them dead. They had probably had symptoms that I noticed for a week maybe less. It was harder to tell on these as I had 7 and they all look alike so it was harder to notice if they weren¡¦t eating, but I had noticed a couple of them hanging at the surface and had a bad feeling about them, but then they would seem fine so I was like¡KI don¡¦t know.
Thanks guys for all you always do trying to help people. I know it is not said enough but I really appreciate you guys and your help!!! ļ
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Mar 18, 2009 14:14:51 GMT -5
Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 18, 2009 14:14:51 GMT -5
Could this be HLLE (head and lateral line erosion). the wound isnt in the ideal spot for this disease, plus the fish seemed to succumb to quickly, but you never know. that wound looks exactly like a lesion that HLLE causes. if you think this could be it, let me know and I`ll help with treating it if any others are effected. I have had great success in curing this condition...
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Mar 18, 2009 14:19:41 GMT -5
Post by murdock6701 on Mar 18, 2009 14:19:41 GMT -5
what is HLLE and what causes it? is it contageous?
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Mar 18, 2009 14:25:55 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 14:25:55 GMT -5
I am not going to rule anything out BUT I really don't feel this is hole in the head.
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Mar 18, 2009 14:37:07 GMT -5
Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 18, 2009 14:37:07 GMT -5
HLLE or hole in the head is a condition that affects mostly cichlids in fresh water aquaria. its not really known exactly what causes it, but it usually rears its ugly head to stressed fish....bad water, incomplete diet, lack of proper lighting....the list is endless. also....it is normally a syptom of something bigger wrong with the tank. the lesions look extremely uncomfortable.
I think Brenda is right that this probably isnt the cause of the deaths since only 1 fish showed the hole. i do feel tho that a similar treatment of vitamin c and metrodazinole may help for the fish affected by these wounds along with meth blue on the affected area.
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Mar 18, 2009 15:14:13 GMT -5
Post by murdock6701 on Mar 18, 2009 15:14:13 GMT -5
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Mar 18, 2009 15:21:47 GMT -5
Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 18, 2009 15:21:47 GMT -5
great article John...it explains the disease very well.
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Mar 18, 2009 16:15:51 GMT -5
Post by Carl on Mar 18, 2009 16:15:51 GMT -5
An interesting article John, it does have some different theories than I have read of late and added to my article on HITH: Aquarium Answers; Hole in the Head, HITHThis is not to say their article is wrong and mine is right (as they agree about 90%), however I am basing my theories on some new research into this as well as past experience in the fact I had little problems with HITH with proper care. This leads me to this point; that is care is major factor in HITH, and with Brenda's excellent water parameters, filtration, feeding, and otherwise overall top notch care, I seriously doubt this is the problem here (plus the symptoms are different IMO) Carl
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Mar 18, 2009 16:21:53 GMT -5
Post by murdock6701 on Mar 18, 2009 16:21:53 GMT -5
An interesting article John, it does have some different theories than I have read of late and added to my article on HITH: Aquarium Answers; Hole in the Head, HITHThis is not to say their article is wrong and mine is right (as they agree about 90%), however I am basing my theories on some new research into this as well as past experience in the fact I had little problems with HITH with proper care. This leads me to this point; that is care is major factor in HITH, and with Brenda's excellent water parameters, filtration, feeding, and otherwise overall top notch care, I seriously doubt this is the problem here (plus the symptoms are different IMO) Carl I agree Carl - Brenda's water parameters are good and I was looking up HLLE which is different but the vertical floating thing had me intrigued - wasn't sidestepping or undermining your articles my friend - just learning new stuff
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Mar 18, 2009 16:24:05 GMT -5
Post by bikeguy33 on Mar 18, 2009 16:24:05 GMT -5
I agree too Carl....HITH and HLLE don`t normally become fatal this quickly. they are both more a symptom of crappy water. the lesions look very similar tho....kinda greyish and deep.
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Mar 18, 2009 18:16:54 GMT -5
Post by brenda on Mar 18, 2009 18:16:54 GMT -5
Ok, I have another dead fish...I just got home so I haven't pulled it out yet to see what it is. I don't know WTH is going on and it is frustrating as I do try to take good care of my fish. I'll be right back to let you know what fish it is...It is either another fire or the very first peacock baby I had...If it is the peacock baby that is not good as she has been in that tank for 4 months or so.
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