Loaches, Botias, Dojos

[Carl]

I just finished building a new web page for Loaches, Botias, Dojos.

Our first entry about Clown Loaches I have to give credit to Kagome for her very complete work here.
Credit as well goes to Steven (SAW) for the composite picture that he worked a few hours on today.

Freshwater Fish Profiles; Loaches, Botias, Dojos

Carl

[brenda]

That was very well done, guys!!!

[kagome]

Thanks Brenda!

[Carl]

I added kagome's Angelicus Loach Profile today:

Fish Profiles; Angelicus Loach

Carl

[eve]

very nice


but may i suggest a rearangement of the profiles in general?

common name

*Scientific Name:

*Size:

*Water Parameters:

*Recommended Tank Size and Temperament: <<< those 2 i would even split in 2 paragraphs actually

*Natural Habitat:

*Description:

*Typical food:

*Contributor Notes:

[Carl]

*Recommended Tank Size and Temperament: <<< those 2 i would even split in 2 paragraphs actually

Others here should voice some thoughts too, then if this is agreed we can divide the work.

Obviously this would mean several profiles would need to be re-written in a way to split these apart without ruining the continuity of the subject.

Personally I often see these two concepts as intertwined, but not always.

Carl

[eve]

Jan 7, 2009 18:41:53 GMT -5 Carl said:

*Recommended Tank Size and Temperament: <<< those 2 i would even split in 2 paragraphs actually

Others here should voice some thoughts too, then if this is agreed we can divide the work.

Obviously this would mean several profiles would need to be re-written in a way to split these apart without ruining the continuity of the subject.

Personally I often see these two concepts as intertwined, but not always.

Carl

if we change that, i wouldn't have a problem helping you to rewrite them

[brenda]

I agree with Carl...I think they are often are intertwined, but not always. I think especially for Cichlids...As an example you could have a fish who's recommended tank size is 55 gallons, if you give the correct tank size they would be labeled mild in the temperment department but take that same fish and put it in a 10 or 20 gallon and you have a killer. Then you have other fish where regardless of tank size their temperment is going to be the same. My opinion right now is they could be left as is, but I will look at more of the profiles in detail and let you know as I have not looked at all of them and may change my mind. So, I'll get back to you guys, but that is my thought right now.

[jonv]

I don't see this as agree with one person or another, as this is a presentation of different ideas and view points, or even better, many common ideas and view points. What I find I very strongly agree with is what Brenda just said. This is a prime example of some wrongs on outdated anecdotal information, and I am completely confident, the other very experienced cichlid keepers we have here, Myself, 8, Bill, Brenda, Eve, now John (murdock) and Ed (wherever art thou Ed?) would feel the same way. Any aggressively listed species, such as say Demasoni, Kenyi, Red Devils, Green Terror's, Jack Dempsey's, Red Zebra's etc... you take that species, and you compress the size, you get a highly aggressive fish, that really fits what one might put in aggression or temperment. BUT, now you take these same species listed, any of them, put them in a 500 or 1000 gallon tank, what do you see? You don't see nearly the same thing as mentioned. What you do see, is the aggression now becomes localized to what the fish feels is it's area, and there really isn't much of any way, even the most aggressive on that list, would feel that 1000 gallons is it's entire area. You see reduced aggression in very large tanks.

By this logic, aggression and tank size are almost directly linked to each other. Shrink a tank to too small of a size, even the most mildest, Yellow Labs, Taiwan Reefs, Kribensis, Rams, Apistos in general, ect... can become a very killer fish in a community setting. Flip that around, echoing again what I just said, and expand massively that tank, you see extremely mild aggression in the most nasty of cichlids.

I am not experienced in fish outside of cichlids, as many of our other members, but if I had to say, I'd feel confident in saying, this same concept of tank size and aggression would apply. I think most any fish, you take and compress the size to smaller then it is reccomended, aggression factors proportionatly increase, and thus taking a tank and expanding the size out to very large sizes, aggression drops in about the same factors. I would think under this logic, you have to link both tank size and aggression into a comprehensive paragraph, explaining a minimum tank size to keep just that species, and tank sizes reccomended if keeping in community, and the effects of aggression in those sizes.

[eve]

ok, i got your points and you're correct when it comes to cichlids

but how true is it for other fish?

[brenda]

Well, that's the thing I would say a lot of other fish it doesn't go hand in hand.

[Carl]

I think Cichlids are definitely an area where both go hand in hand, however with other fish this can also be the case, although filtration is also a factor in tank size.

What can also be considered is that one profile by profile basis is to consider re-writing and separating these categories.

If this would add clarity to some profiles, this should be done, however if the reason is to make the profiles look like other web sites, I think this would be a poor reason as we are already unique with some of the information contained in the profiles we already have (such as the contributor notes, as well as links to information such as the Calcium/pH, KH, article).
With the few profiles we already have since starting this section last Aug./Sept. we are already receiving close to 1000 hits per week (from outside EA), so there is an interest out there for this type of information, so we want it to be as accurate and unique as possible and if some profiles need to be tweaked, so be it. I just think we should make changes for the right reason, not to conform to other formats.

I hope my point is clear and not coming across the wrong way

Carl

[jonv]

I think on other fish, case by case maybe, as just off the top of my head, take for example a Betta, or Tiger Barbs.

Not aggression in the same way of cichlids, but say in a 150 gallon tank, would it be unsreasonable to assume you could house multiple male Betta's, even females also in there? And Tiger barbs in say a 180 or 210? Would they be as nippy as if say, kept in a 30 gallon footprint? I think with something like danio's or maybe some Tetra's, cory cats, I don't think this is a huge impactor, as they just simply really aren't aggressive by their own nature, but in many species that have aggressive tendancies, space is almost always the direct influence on that.

[Carl]

That is a good point Jon.

I again think that each profile can be looked over, then any possible changes can be emailed to me (as a Word Document as kagome sent them is best)

My other concern is that corrections to actual information contained there in is also sent as well as the many started but unfinished profiles.
Some only need "contributor notes", but this is important and can help explain more especially about more subjective areas of keeping certain fish (as me & Jon conversed about via phone).

Carl

[brenda]

I think that is a good idea to modify on a case by case basis, that was actually what I was thinking as well.

[jonv]

Yeah basically what I think would make things better and improved compared to other sites, is the addition to keeper/contributer notes like Carl said. It's one thing to have basic and generic information that reflects the same stuff noted on numerous sites, but when you can read over the actual interactions of a fish keeper, that has the species in question, you might be able to extrapolate how it would work out in your tank, if you are reading the profile. I plan on adding in to Carl the notes for Protomelas Steveni's soon, and one KEY thing I want to make noted, is that my case, is a mixed Malawi tank of Haps, Mbuna, and peacocks, even Arowana have been in there, and due to the sheer space of 180 gallons, combined with proper mixing of different occupying levels of the tank, this species appears in my tank, to be an extremely docile Malawi Hap, even aggression among known males is almost nil to none during breeding time. From my experience in my tank and stock, it almost appears to me as if this species, one dominant male is basically accepted and not challenged.

My fear/concern would be say someone that has a 55 gallon tank, and have some very aggressive Mbuna or Peacocks in there, and not considering the decreased footprint, tries to mix in Protomelas Steveni and it doesn't work out and say the information was false. Not really, because the reader needs to consider the factors with some intelligence, which cannot be controlled by any of us.

[bikeguy33]

what i have always found....is that fish have intelligence.....some are mild and some are evil in the same species.....have none of you ever experienced serial killing guppies?? they are prone to certain personalites.....but that is not taking oneness,....individuality into account. as every one of us have seen.....our fish are "REAL" pets with the respect and awe that they deserve. tank size of course has alot to do with it......but how the hell do people come up with minimum size? my guys are under tanked....but they get allong.....bio load small....but conditions kept optimal and enough food their aggression is minimal. not for the inexperienced......but i bet i could keep a flowerhorn with labs.....under correct conditions. things change with experience.....

[sammiesam]

I agree with the personalities, look at Bettas, every site I read about bettas always says do not keep things with big fins etc that might look like them, and I've kept all my bettas with all types of fish, but then Wentworth would kill every thing that even looked at him, didn't matter what it was.

[eve]

i definitely don't want the profiles look like other profiles

me personally, i just look for certain information first on top of the profiles, that's why i suggested to rearange the order of them

[Carl]

Jan 9, 2009 4:32:27 GMT -5 eve said:

i definitely don't want the profiles look like other profiles

me personally, i just look for certain information first on top of the profiles, that's why i suggested to rearange the order of them

You might look at specific profiles as seems to be the consensus, and those that need more clarity you can send in suggested re-rewrites, especially in the area you suggested while we leave the contributor notes more in tact.
Or maybe post here any re-writes for others to voice their thoughts.

My concern (although much less in Fish Profiles) is that if an article is too tweaked to allow for the reader to find a snip of information, this can lead to poor, misleading, or inaccurate information being diseminated from an article.

This is one reason I have never and will never use those over simplistic fish treament charts as they are so over simplistic that they often end up being wrong (even with the best of intentions) as the reader sees just what they want to and miss the big picture.
A recent study of human diagnositc charts on the interenet showed this as well and a Doctor/Hobbyist Mentor to me made a similar statement over 20 years ago.

Carl