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Post by brenda on Jan 9, 2009 21:00:11 GMT -5
Barbara, I am inclined to believe your first assumption is correct based on what you said. Being I'm about to get Christmas Fulu myself next week, I am taking a bit interest in this topic. Though not the same species as this one you're having issues with, I still find this overall, interesting. I've had maybe 1 or 2 Protomelas Steveni come out deformed, and the group I got, did all come from the same seller, but I also had numerous males and females, like three males and seven females. Who spawned with who, best guess there, but I have read in some other forums, that genetically, it usually takes about 4-5 generations of inbreeding before this really becomes an issue. If this problem is due to inbreeding, it's a species that's probably been inbreed over many generations I'd bet. I have strong feelings your thoughts to mix up the group will work out well. I am not big into stripping females though. I've heard too many bad stories about stripping females and how they tend not to hold broods to term after doing it. You sound very experienced however, and I wouldn't worry personally. My female yellow lab is very much protective of her broods, and it seems to me, like the fry want to get out and swim around, but she just refuses to let them out LOL. She pretty much goes a good solid 21 days really from when I find her holding to when I can see them out and swimming around, and I isolate her as well. She really doesn't seem pleased about it, but I've collected over a 100 fry from her over the last 3 months. Plus one brood holding now. Try the mixing up for now Barbara, and just see how it goes. One thing I am going to add to this as I believe it also pertains to the Fulu (Barbara correct me if I am wrong)...From what we have been told by Greg Steeves who is an expert in Lake Victoria fish is that both the Fulu's and the Neochromis were only brought into this country 1 time. So all fish of these species stem from the original group. Which means even adding new colonys will help but they are still all releated. I agree though it will be better breeding possible distant cousins then siblings.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 21:00:40 GMT -5
I've found that nutrition, cleanliness, water parameters, and temperature affect a spawn as well as genetics though genes are probably the biggest factor. What is your surival rate? Not directly, no sorry. Physical elements such as heat and the water chemistry are not going to effect the DNA, which is your genetics, in any way shape or form. Radiation or UV, I'd buy that, but not at all anything physical such as temps or the chemistry of the water. It's likely to be indirect, such as maybe which type of fry will make it. That's indirect, and shapes the future of the bloodline, but from how I read what's written, it looks like that suggests nitrogen compounds and temps can alter DNA. I think genetics isn't the right term to be used here. Unless I'm wrong, about the only things I can think of that impact your actual genes or DNA is just radiation. Of course you have natural random mutations, and I'm no geneticist, but I'd very much imagine, some sort of radiation influenced it, be it UV or Infrared or an Alpha or Beta emitter, or even just pure old gamma rays. Either way, again, I might be mistaken, but I cannot think of anything besides that, that can alter your genetics or DNA. Can it alter moods and the urges to spawn, sure, but I just can't believe that it can alter your DNA, sorry.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 21:04:13 GMT -5
Brenda, that must be a very large collection I'd imagine, if this is true. I mean if you think about the potential numbers of this species in the USA, which I'd bet probably numbers in the 1000's since there's about what, 300 million people in the nation? If this is just one import, that import must have been a significant sized import, or I'd have to think there would be already showing, some mutations and deformaties going around. HOPEFULLY, they imported like 500 or something. If I start getting spawns with arms and legs comming out, I'm gonna be so pissed LOL
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 21:37:28 GMT -5
My survival rate seems to be close to 100%, when I pull the holding mothers out of the main tank. Without them being live bearers, and with them being mouthbrooders, I'd really have a hard time making a guess like that. I know if I do my job right...pull the holding moms into an isolation tank, and removing her fairly quickly after releasing free swimming fry, I've not noticed any losses. I have, however, had losses when I left the mother in the main tank, or left her in too long with the fry. I just lost most of a group of yellow lab fry to leaving the mom in too long with her babies. I have too many isolation tanks being used right now...with all 3 of my Neochromis females being in separate tanks, about 50 Rusty fry in a tank, and growing out some Mbipia cf. Lutea fry for introduction to the larger ones. I badly need some 10 gallon tanks set up, and some sponge filters.
As to the Xystichromis Phytophagus, I don't believe a large group was found of these. If I remember correctly, they were assumed to be extinct in Lake Victoria, and were discovered in a smaller lake. I'll do some looking tonight to see if I can find that story. Also, beware when buying Victorians. A lot of people have no clue as to what they actually have. Victorians will crossbreed with other Victorians, if not kept properly. A lot of females of the Victorian species look very similar, and often times if mixed with another species, aren't able to be told apart.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 21:43:56 GMT -5
That's a very constructive note Barb. I'll take note of that. I can't say I have personally witnessed that, but if you hadn't mentioned this, I would not have even thought to look for it. Honestly, from all the other keepers of Mbuna I've talked to, this is the first time I'm hearing of losses by leaving mom with them, so I am very interested to hear this from you.
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Post by bikeguy33 on Jan 9, 2009 22:00:50 GMT -5
sorry to reply so late to this.....but we end up with this problem all TOO often in my fish farms....inparticular fry that we buy from thailand. the bent tail is only 1 of the many deformities we deal with through inbreeding issues. some of these fish are born without tails even. as well, when the eggs are fertilized, they are affected by high ammonia levels in their environment and i feel this also is one of the contributers on the farm, not in your tanks brenda. so through inbreeding, and poor water conditions we get the bent spines etc.
now as far as the killing part.....i wouldnt. these deformities can often make excellent looking fish. as long as they eat well and arent getting picked on by their "normal" counterparts i would give them a chance if you can. this is only an opinion tho.
now as to the parents....these deformities will almost certainly stop when new stock is introduced. it would be a shame to lose either of these fish. experienced breeding stock is a very valuable commodity...
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:04:57 GMT -5
Glad to help. I lost the only spawn of the Astatotilapia Latifasciata (Kyoga Zebra Obliquidens) that actually came out live to the mom. And the new group of Yellow labs...I didn't think twice about leaving her in the tank to recover, but I have like 3 fry left, out of about 50 that were in there.
One thing I do in my main tanks, and in my isolation tanks, is use 1 to 1 1/2 inch pieces of smooth river rock. I have so many Rusties right now, I just can't manage any more fry...but I put this in the tanks so the fry have a place to hide. When I siphon my tanks, I carefully move those pieces of rock and try to catch the fry that have been released. I don't save many this way, but there are always a few in there.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 22:08:50 GMT -5
Are there different Zebra Obliqueidens out there? I just got a group of those before Thanksgiving off aquabid, listed as Obliquidens, but maybe there are different types of those? Can I see pictures of yours?
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:10:25 GMT -5
I appreciate the input. I'm fairly certain ammonia levels are not a problem in this instance. I'm just bummed that this is happening to my fry. My best guess was inbreeding, and it's something I've been concerned about since I have realized what limited specimens there are floating around.
I'll introduce new blood to the mix and see what my results are. This is my favorite species that I keep, as the females are as attractive as the males. I love the spunkyness of them...I know it's actually aggression, but they are active and beautiful.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 22:10:49 GMT -5
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:17:44 GMT -5
Sure... Astatotilapia Latifasciata (Zebras)
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:19:02 GMT -5
Mine never colored up. I don't know what my ratios are. But they look pretty good to me.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 22:22:53 GMT -5
Yup thanks Barb. Well I'll be the son of a monkey's uncle. I've had a Victorian Species for 2 months now LOL. They actually did spawn Barb, but the female didn't make it a week with the brood. Saw the bulge in the mouth, but a week later, she was out and eating again. Just on that one experience, I'd agree with you, that breeding in Victorians are rough. They are however, in primarily a Malawi setting, with 1 Tangyangikan, a Tropheus Dubosi male.
The males should show you a bright red hue along the head and shine up a couple other colors. I think in my pics, I got some shots of them. If they don't show that hue, I'd be even thinking, you might just have all females. The females I have look exactly like the shots you posted, just the males get those neon looking colors to them.
Many big thanks!!! Wow, I'll have 2 Victorians then next week!!!
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:26:16 GMT -5
I had fry, I saw them. Just didn't pull the female in time to keep them.
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Post by jonv on Jan 9, 2009 22:36:26 GMT -5
Aw man that bites. I sure hope these guys get in the mood again. What do you feed yours? Basically, I put in Spiralina flakes, and while I'm feeding the Jardini his bloodworm cubes, I'll suppliment the flakes with Plankton cubes. Any suggestions? You think they'll be ok in the Malawi setting or maybe put them in with the Madagascars? Eventually Barb, that 100 gallon is going to become a Victorian only tank
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Post by barbara on Jan 9, 2009 22:41:02 GMT -5
They will be fine with mbuna. I had mine in with mild ones, and they did just fine. Make sure they get some protein in their diet, but Spirulina is good too. I think they will be just fine.
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Post by brenda on Jan 9, 2009 22:47:17 GMT -5
I know it is hard to believe Jon but I am sure this is what I had heard about the Fulu's. The reason you can get them is in essence people are saving this species. I believe arbara knows people that in essence have save species pretty much all by themselves. 1 person can really make a difference with a lot of these fish.
Good point Barbara, I forgot to mention this. It is fine to mix you just need to be very careful to mix males and females that are very different. Like your Zebra's should be fine with Fulu's but you wouldn't want to mix say Kyoga Flamebacks with Fulu. That is why my P. Chromogynos are good to mix as their females are totally different then most others.
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Post by barbara on Jan 10, 2009 9:31:54 GMT -5
Brenda, you know my feelings on this...one person can make a difference in a species. I do know someone who saved the Mbipia cf. Lutea in the hobby, by himself. One of the reasons I work with endangered species is exactly that reason, I can make a difference. Every day I do research on the species I am keeping, and for species that I am interested in. My endangered species are registered in the HCCC's program, and the ACA CARES program.
Mixing Victorians isn't particularily that difficult. The aggression levels need to be similar, a good ratio of male to female, and species that look dissimilar should be enough to limit crossbreeding. The Hap. sp. 44, redtail, whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be mixed at all. They are hyper aggressive, and will cross with anything, but that's just one species. The Astatotilapia Latifasciata can be mixed with the Fulus, and you could add Brenda's favorite, the Paralabidochromis Chromogynos to that mix with little fear. But I wouldn't mix more than that, if you are considering saving fry. 2 species mixed is considered a good amount, and 3 in a large tank may be OK, but I wouldn't go more than that.
Mixing Victorian species is controversial. A lot of people will tell you absolutely not, under any conditions. My personal views are that if you take the time to do your homework, you can mix the Victorians. I've researched this, asked questions of people who have done it, and am in the midst of writing an article on this topic.
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Post by Carl on Jan 10, 2009 10:41:54 GMT -5
I've found that nutrition, cleanliness, water parameters, and temperature affect a spawn as well as genetics though genes are probably the biggest factor. What is your surival rate? Not directly, no sorry. Physical elements such as heat and the water chemistry are not going to effect the DNA, which is your genetics, in any way shape or form. Radiation or UV, I'd buy that, but not at all anything physical such as temps or the chemistry of the water. It's likely to be indirect, such as maybe which type of fry will make it. That's indirect, and shapes the future of the bloodline, but from how I read what's written, it looks like that suggests nitrogen compounds and temps can alter DNA. I think genetics isn't the right term to be used here. Unless I'm wrong, about the only things I can think of that impact your actual genes or DNA is just radiation. Of course you have natural random mutations, and I'm no geneticist, but I'd very much imagine, some sort of radiation influenced it, be it UV or Infrared or an Alpha or Beta emitter, or even just pure old gamma rays. Either way, again, I might be mistaken, but I cannot think of anything besides that, that can alter your genetics or DNA. Can it alter moods and the urges to spawn, sure, but I just can't believe that it can alter your DNA, sorry. This has turned out to be an interesting thread! Jon, while I do agree that physical elements such as heat, temperature, etc. do not affect DNA, some aspects of chemistry may be enable mutations. Keep in mind what Redox is; this is the ability to add or subtract electrons. So in other words in a highly oxidizing Redox environment, you are subtracting electrons which CAN and WILL oxidize and even alter DNA. In a reducing Redox environment, electrons are added, which is how anit-oxidant vitamins work. Both are essential for life, even oxidation, however many sites including the Aquarium Wiki get this dead wrong, it is this balance that MUST be achieved otherwise you can have fish with disease and undesirable mutations on one side of the equation and a polluted tank on the other. See" Aquarium RedoxI know I am a little off subject, as I doubt this is a problem, however maintaining this balance is important otherwise this can be a factor. As to the nutrition and other factors I pointed out earlier, I did not mean to imply a DNA connection, only a health connection where by a weak female may not produce healthy fry . As to DNA and the point made that many of these Vics come from just a few "Adam" fish that were imported; Even though this can be a problem, selective breeding can look for the strongest genetic traits and then these "siblings" are then bred. This process is repeated over and over until both the the strongest traits are the only ones kept AND eventually the breeder moves away from the sibling/cousin breeding. This has been done successfully in other animals that are endangered as well. Carl
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Post by jonv on Jan 10, 2009 11:29:11 GMT -5
Carl, I was thinking a bit more about this afterwards last night, and then I started thinking, some products that have these suspected carcinogens can't be radioactive, I wouldn't think. That kind of makes me think, how can some chemicals be effecting DNA and genes. When you bring up the electron transfer and probably this might even go as deep as looking at valence stability in certain compounds, this starts to change the equation in how your DNA works.
One thing makes me wonder here though, in lakes and rivers, how exactly is the redox being replenished? Is that just from the fresh new water itself that usually feeds into the bodies of water, or is it more the actual minerals that are usually found in the water comming in itself? With all the climate changes going on, the higher amounts of phosphates being found from run offs, the acidic nature of most rain and what have you, have there been any updated studies looking at A. The quality of the infeed water going into the main bodies of water, and B. the effects, if any on redox in these natural bodies of water, reflecting the effect of enviromental changes to the actual water?
For Barbara, I'm very much eager to read your input on the mixing, before I start that up. Since I've got those Zebra's now and will have Fulu next week, I'd feel better following the idea of not mixing up too many. The tank in question they'd have would be a 100 gallon tank, measuring 60 x 18 x 20 I think. If that doesn't work out to 100 gallons, I'll remeasure, but I did measure this last year when I got the tank, and calculated it to be 100 gallons. Do you have any suggestions what to mix? Like would you figure leaving the Zebra's in the Malawi setting is better, or would they be ok to be one of the species in the Victorian tank with the Fulu? Maybe do you think it's better leave the Zebra's with the Malawi's, use Fulu and something else?
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